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  1. #26
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    hmm well there seems to be a lot of passionate ideas here, a good thing that people are passionate about their opinions! Each side like to bring forth their evidence to support their point.

    I can see both views from Woodys and Belgianhammer. Both presented valid points, but the question remains, do their points apply to all riders?

    here is what I'm thinking:

    1. the human body didn't evolve to perform extreme work on a bicycle. So it should be a surprise that pain arises when we do extreme work.

    2. it looks like that the line between "comfort" and "pain" on the bike is quite small. One position you're comfortable, move it a few mm and now it's pain country. Well this supports the idea that humans ain't creatures designed to pedal bicycles.

    3. then you have the sensation of "pain" itself is also a shifting sensation. When you're younger, maybe you could tolerate more pain. Then as age set in, now you can't as much anymore. Suddenly your "comfort" position is now not-so-pain-free anymore. And it's not just age, accumulating (small) injuries over the years could also affect how your body sense pain too.

    One thing I will agree with Belgianhammer is this. When you're pushing the limits, there is NO such thing as comfort. I'm sorry, but there is no athlete on earth, in any sport, that will say that they are comfortable when performing at their physical limits. If you're comfortable, then you're not pushing hard enough. There was a study done in weightlifting and injuries, and they found that there is a strong correlation between
    injuries and the amount of weight lifted. Simply put, the heavier you lift, the more injuries you will get. And this happens regardless how much warmups or stretching you do. Lifting heavy means you will have a higher chance of getting injured. Now cycling is not weightlifting, but cycling still is a sport that requires the body to exert a force, repetitively. It's not unreasonable to postulate that at higher power, the chances of injuries (or pain) will increase.

    btw, Eddy Merckx used to carry a small wrench with him in races and he would often adjust his saddle at some point during the race! Apparently, Mark Cavendish would sometimes do this too, adjust his saddle during the race. So even pros have issue with fitting.

  2. #27
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    There shouldn't be pain from riding a bike (outside of exercise-induced "pain" that stops once you stop going hard).

    The notion that you should be riding through pain via a compromising position to put out more power is flat-out absurd.

    There are instances were positioning may hinder power production (thinking aero TT setups) which would be used for short durations, but even those shouldn't be causing physical pain that is manifested on and off the bike.

    Finally, nothing about what pros do is in any way relevant to nonpros. And while I scoff at the idea that someone is continually putting themselves into debilitating pain in pursuit of extra watts, even if they were, it is in no way applicable to anyone else.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    All I know is when I put out really good power number (for me) I'm very comfortable. No way could I generate higher power with back or knee pain. Comfort=power.
    Exactly. I don't have a twinge of pain anywhere on my body save for muscle burn/fatigue. If I did, I'd turn around and go home immediately. Pretty easy to start messing yourself up by pushing through that type of stuff.

  4. #29
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    Crippling knee pain after my last ride. Two days and tons of stretching and foam rolling later and I'm almost back to normal. Still going to wait until the middle of next week to try riding again and even then I'm sliding my saddle back and riding at 70% a few times to see what happens.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    A pretty darn good first foray at a plank I will say there big fella.

    Another question. Most that ride mountain bikes ride them more upright than their road bike. Would you say this it true of you? How much saddle to bar drop do you have on your road bike and how much on your mountain bike?

    Do you have pain riding your mountain bike after 20 miles?
    Back pain yea towards the end of the ride, and sometimes knee pain after, but rarely since I went to an oval ring.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Crippling knee pain after my last ride. Two days and tons of stretching and foam rolling later and I'm almost back to normal. Still going to wait until the middle of next week to try riding again and even then I'm sliding my saddle back and riding at 70% a few times to see what happens.
    Sorry to hear that. Good idea on moving the saddle back and not riding to hard

  7. #32
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    https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/vie...php?t=13041739

    As I read through this post, I felt a lot of the same things, especially the line below. My knee feels way better today after a ton of foam rolling on all angles of my leg. Still going to move saddle and ride easier pace a few times.

    When my leg is slightly bent the knee feels bruised, when the leg is straight it's a lot more comfortable. "



  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    When my leg is slightly bent the knee feels bruised, when the leg is straight it's a lot more comfortable.
    Possibly tendonitis? Just lifting weight won't help. It's how you do it that matters. For example, there is a term called "jumper's knee" which is the pain in the tendon just below the kneecap. The weight training for it is called "mini squat" which is squatting down half the distance (45d knee angle) of the normal squat (90d knee angle) using lighter weight than one would normally use. If it turns out to be tendonitis, this would help.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Crippling knee pain after my last ride. Two days and tons of stretching and foam rolling later and I'm almost back to normal. Still going to wait until the middle of next week to try riding again and even then I'm sliding my saddle back and riding at 70% a few times to see what happens.
    I would definitely revert to your original saddle position. Knee pain is not something to take lightly.

    I'm thinking your back pain may be due to poor flexibility and core strength. Google "core exercises for cyclists" or "stretching exercises for cyclists".
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Crippling knee pain after my last ride. Two days and tons of stretching and foam rolling later and I'm almost back to normal. Still going to wait until the middle of next week to try riding again and even then I'm sliding my saddle back and riding at 70% a few times to see what happens.
    I would be going back to the person who did the bike fit and have him help you sort through it - Trying to push through knee pain is a really bad idea in my opinion.
    Gravel Rocks

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    I would be going back to the person who did the bike fit and have him help you sort through it - Trying to push through knee pain is a really bad idea in my opinion.
    To say the least.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #37
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    I was mistaken, the new saddle is only ~5mm from as far back as it can go. I'm a little more worried now. I put it as far back as it can go but hopefully that's enough.

  13. #38
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    Also, I looked at the first 2 mins of data on Strava for the last 2 weeks vs 2 months ago and I haven't been warming up as diligently. ~190w warmup versus ~160w warmup 2 months ago.

    So, hopefully going back to more diligent warmups and moving the saddle back about 5mm helps.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    Also, I looked at the first 2 mins of data on Strava for the last 2 weeks vs 2 months ago and I haven't been warming up as diligently. ~190w warmup versus ~160w warmup 2 months ago.

    So, hopefully going back to more diligent warmups and moving the saddle back about 5mm helps.
    I saw you edited the OP. The fit moved the saddle 2mm up and 5mm forward. Did they do anything else? It seems like a cleat thing with the knee perhaps.

    Also how are you measuring power? Strava?

    edit: I ask about how you're measuring power because 10-15% increase from 2mm up and 5mm fwd is most likely not going to happen. If you're using a dedicated PM then ignore...
    Last edited by woodys737; 04-09-2018 at 03:29 PM.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    I saw you edited the OP. The fit moved the saddle 2mm up and 5mm forward. Did they do anything else? It seems like a cleat thing with the knee perhaps.

    Also how are you measuring power? Strava?

    edit: I ask about how you're measuring power because 10-15% increase from 2mm up and 5mm fwd is most likely not going to happen. If you're using a dedicated PM then ignore...
    Different saddle (as I'm typing this, I realize my saddle height may have changed more than 2mm but I doubt it as my heel barely touches the pedal just like it did before) and moved the grips on the bars towards me a few mm

    Nothing changed on cleats. Dedicated power meter.

  16. #41
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    I moved my saddle back about ~5mm but did not touch height. I had some pain behind and below my knee (couldn't tell if it was a tight calf, which although I've never had it could have been that, or joint pain). I think that means I need to lower the saddle though?

  17. #42
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    I moved the saddle back about 5mm and got pain below and behind my knee. Could have been a tight calf (it went away after light stretching but then came back). Never had tight calves riding and never had pain there for that matter. But having not changed my fore/aft and not changing my height does that mean I just need to lower it a hair?

  18. #43
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    I had over 3k miles on this frame before getting fit with no knee pain ever so I know I CAN be comfortable on the frame. Just not exactly sure how to tweak it. Hopefully moving the saddle down a hair to pair with moving it back will fix everything right up.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    I had over 3k miles on this frame before getting fit with no knee pain ever so I know I CAN be comfortable on the frame. Just not exactly sure how to tweak it. Hopefully moving the saddle down a hair to pair with moving it back will fix everything right up.
    Dunno man, I'd leave setback where it is and lower the saddle a few mms. Pain under the knee and at the back is a symptom of overstretch, the saddle being too high and/or set back too far.

    Slide it to where it was when the knees were comfortable, and start over after they recover. Go out easy, feeling the pedals. Figure out what's going on with the knees. If they're hurting, you're over stressing them. Get the legs comfortable, then go after the power workouts.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisthebeave View Post
    I moved my saddle back about ~5mm but did not touch height. I had some pain behind and below my knee (couldn't tell if it was a tight calf, which although I've never had it could have been that, or joint pain). I think that means I need to lower the saddle though?
    Yep, pain BEHIND the knee is a sign of the saddle being too high. Another is if you feel your hips rocking. Someone riding behind you could see this as well. I would leave the fore/aft where it is and lower the sadlle 1cm.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #46
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    It is common for many Tour de France riders that finish the tour have their saddle height much lower than it was at the start of the first stage. The saddle is up to 10mm lower 23 days later.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Dunno man, I'd leave setback where it is and lower the saddle a few mms. Pain under the knee and at the back is a symptom of overstretch, the saddle being too high and/or set back too far.

    Slide it to where it was when the knees were comfortable, and start over after they recover. Go out easy, feeling the pedals. Figure out what's going on with the knees. If they're hurting, you're over stressing them. Get the legs comfortable, then go after the power workouts.
    Since I started the thread I moved the saddle back to where it was pre-fit. It was a new saddle so I had to go based on the widest point and try to mirror it. Pain behind right knee resulted so I moved the saddle down about 3mm. Pain in front of right knee resulted so I went back up 1mm. Pain behind the left knee resulted (that lingered for ~2 days) so I moved it forward about 3mm and didn't have any pain on yesterday's ride (a few twinges but I think it was just lingering effects of whatever damage was done before). Today my knees feel better than yesterday and I rode yesterday so at least I think I didn't do any new damage yesterday and that's a good sign.

    I've been doing knee stabilization exercises lately too. I sit at a desk 10+ hours a day so I think my stabilization muscles got weak over time and the new fit was enough to agitate something.

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