Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,211

    Proof the French make the best framesets. . .

    Brilliant technical video about some manufacturers and their quality short comings.
    Time kills it with their quality. Likely why my BB30 has never made a sound. Spech and Cannondale are crap

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryhuHkbb-o

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,888
    I'm not an engineer, but I don't think the video's data justifies the guy's views.

    We don't know WHAT'S ACCEPTABLE regarding all those tolerances. For all I know, the range in error could still be within the ability of the bottom bracket to function correctly.

  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,139
    Better proof

    Rene Herse
    Proof the French make the best framesets. . .-herse.jpg

    Alex Singer
    Proof the French make the best framesets. . .-singer.jpg
    Too old to ride plastic

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,442
    ditto. i don't get that from this video at all.

  5. #5
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,771
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
    I'm not an engineer, but I don't think the video's data justifies the guy's views.

    We don't know WHAT'S ACCEPTABLE regarding all those tolerances. For all I know, the range in error could still be within the ability of the bottom bracket to function correctly.
    Yup. And go figure, he didn't show us his measuring tools with which he churned out his data. Measuring 0.01mm like his slides how is the resolution limit of consumer digital calipers....curious what he was using to measure 0.1 degree.That being said...given the box/whisker plot the samples he had there was a definite variation in measured tolerance.


    Of course the whole thing is easily solved...by just not using pressfit bearings. A fool "solution" to save frame makers money.....which given the number of RMAs due to creak probably didn't.


    BB30's tolerances are here:

    Speedone - Official Site - BB30 - New BB Industrial Standard


    Can't find an easy schematic with tolerance for PF30 ATM.
    Last edited by Marc; 02-10-2018 at 06:19 PM.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    3,442
    why not just conclude this is a land mine and a threaded bottom bracket works best.

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 11spd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,796
    As a mechanical engineer, I can say without equivocation there are many fallicies to what this presenter stated in the video. Don't know if he is a degreed engineer or not. Suffice to say the engineers that work at Boardman, Cannondale and Specialized know what the tolerances are..and the Geometric Design and Tolerance is for their products. They perform design of experiments to understand the margins, potential for creak and increased crank spindle rotational drag due to bearing bore misalignment due to lack of parallel bore centers and the lack of angulation agreement the presenter spoke of. One thing he got right however, is there is a strong relationship between tolerance and mfg cost. Point is, tolerances don't have to as precise as Time or Look for a functional BB30.

    Key for 0 creaks for BB30 are:
    - Good ABEC-5 or equivalent angular contact bearings.
    - Loctite bearings so they can't move and creak
    - Adequate crank preload
    - Assembling crank spindle prior to Loctite hardening to ensure bearing alignment. A nuance of design is....angular and co-axiality can be compensated for with Loctite because if a spindle is used to ensure bore alignment, a bearing doesn't even have to be fully seated if encapsulated in Loctite which is incompressible in a captured volume. When Loctite cures, the bearing has nowhere to go. Hope that makes sense.

    The tolerances....bore dia, angular and parallel misalignment to a degree, have NOTHING to do with creaking. They can increase rotational drag however if tolerances of parallelism and angular mismatch...also referred to as cylindricity are not within certain bounds but pretty much a non issue for Cannondale, Specialized and other brands this novice stated who doesn't know what he is talkin about.

    So word up to those that don't have this background...part of the world I lived in.
    Last edited by 11spd; 02-11-2018 at 05:06 AM.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 11spd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,796
    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Brilliant technical video about some manufacturers and their quality short comings.
    Time kills it with their quality. Likely why my BB30 has never made a sound. Spech and Cannondale are crap

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryhuHkbb-o
    You couldn't be more wrong. Entertaining video tho. Good fiction.

  9. #9
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,772
    As an ME involved in manufacturing metrology, I have a few questions about his measuring techniques: First, I ASSUME he's using the correct size micrometer (2-3"?) to measure the O of the bearings, as well as averaging readings from different angles. Anything less than this is suspect. A caliper is NOT acceptable for measuring such close tolerances. Second, I'd love to see what his angular measurement setup is. A CMM taking the inside cylinder, then the outer element of the bearing? Or is he staging it differently? This measurement is difficult to get to any degree of accuracy on a built-up bicycle.

    If his data is true, it looks like there may be some tolerance issues on the first 2 brands of BB. A CPK study would give better info as to whether there is a production issue here.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 11spd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,796
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    As an ME involved in manufacturing metrology, I have a few questions about his measuring techniques: First, I ASSUME he's using the correct size micrometer (2-3"?) to measure the O of the bearings, as well as averaging readings from different angles. Anything less than this is suspect. A caliper is NOT acceptable for measuring such close tolerances. Second, I'd love to see what his angular measurement setup is. A CMM taking the inside cylinder, then the outer element of the bearing? Or is he staging it differently? This measurement is difficult to get to any degree of accuracy on a built-up bicycle.

    If his data is true, it looks like there may be some tolerance issues on the first 2 brands of BB. A CPK study would give better info as to whether there is a production issue here.
    Can't say that with any reliability NTT, sorry....one ME to another brother. Reason is, you haven't studied the design in depth enough...performed any angular tolerance stack ups keeping in mind bearings have tolerance 'allowance' for angular mismatch as well as part of their design nominal ...tolerance of spindle OD to bearing ID has forgiveness etc...I explained that bearings can be slightly rotated in BB30 bores for greater angular tolerance and co-axiality mismatch. I have never worked on a BB30 bike from a top manufacturer where I couldn't tame any untoward performance issue from creaking to bearing drag based upon 'set up'. Set up is key and where the vast majority get it wrong. Yes, mfg tolerance makes set up more sensitive, but somebody who really understands the relationships should never have a problem. Take the video presenter. He doesn't get it. He is speaking of a perfect world with perfect tolerances. Loctite and proper set up makes typ. tolerance spread of top bikes a non issue.

    PS: and hope this doesnt go over your head. The tolerance stack is really complex considering all 3-D planes of boring alignment because at it turns out, they are related.. A higher tolerance, more opened up BB30 bore diameter allows more forgiveness for bore lack of co-axiality and angularity aka lack of orthogonally. A slightly oversize closer to slip fit bearing to bore relationship allows for greater bearing bore misalignment because bearings can rotate slightly within their bores aka not seat precisely to the bottom. Without Loctite of course this will promote creaking i.e. what the presenter was talking about. With Loctite, never an issue.

    Above btw is the basis for Treks BB90 design which is slip fit which allows by nature a higher tolerance of lack of bore center and angularity agreement. Hope this makes sense.
    Last edited by 11spd; 02-11-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  11. #11
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,771
    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    As a mechanical engineer, I can say without equivocation there are many fallicies to what this presenter stated in the video. Don't know if he is a degreed engineer or not. Suffice to say the engineers that work at Boardman, Cannondale and Specialized know what the tolerances are..and the Geometric Design and Tolerance is for their products. They perform design of experiments to understand the margins, potential for creak and increased crank spindle rotational drag due to bearing bore misalignment due to lack of parallel bore centers and the lack of angulation agreement the presenter spoke of. One thing he got right however, is there is a strong relationship between tolerance and mfg cost. Point is, tolerances don't have to as precise as Time or Look for a functional BB30.

    Key for 0 creaks for BB30 are:
    - Good ABEC-5 or equivalent angular contact bearings.
    - Loctite bearings so they can't move and creak
    - Adequate crank preload
    - Assembling crank spindle prior to Loctite hardening to ensure bearing alignment. A nuance of design is....angular and co-axiality can be compensated for with Loctite because if a spindle is used to ensure bore alignment, a bearing doesn't even have to be fully seated if encapsulated in Loctite which is incompressible in a captured volume. When Loctite cures, the bearing has nowhere to go. Hope that makes sense.

    The tolerances....bore dia, angular and parallel misalignment to a degree, have NOTHING to do with creaking. They can increase rotational drag however if tolerances of parallelism and angular mismatch...also referred to as cylindricity are not within certain bounds but pretty much a non issue for Cannondale, Specialized and other brands this novice stated who doesn't know what he is talkin about.

    So word up to those that don't have this background...part of the world I lived in.
    This is as much as I can gather on him...this is his site:

    https://www.hambini.com/about-hambini

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambini
    Hambini is the result of my weekend need for speed and application of my engineering to real world problems. For a long time, I have made parts for myself to improve the performance of bicycles and cars that I have owned. This has ranged from bicycle headsets to full blown bespoke turbochargers. Through word of mouth, I supplied some of these items to members of my local cycling club, the local bike shop and some car forum members. This has grown organically and after some encouragement by my friends and family, I now supply items through the Hambini website www.hambini.com and I also list on ebay.
    For my full time job I am an Aeronautical engineer and head of Aerothermal Engineering for a large jet engine manufacturer. I am a member of the Institution of Mechanical engineers and a Chartered Engineer. If you purchase a Hambini product, you are purchasing the same level of engineering expertise and knowledge that goes into designing engine parts for the Eurofighter Typhoon.
    In addition, rest assured, the person who designed your product, machined it, packed it and sent it there are no other people in the supply chain.
    On a personal note, I take great pride in my engineering skill and reputation, if you have any problems or questions (no matter how small) please contact me and I will do my utmost to resolve them. support@hambini.com
    And his street address on Maps:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fr...628!4d-2.07523


    Maybe engineers aren't the credential-measuring type...but his lack of stating his degree is an odd omission in my book.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 11spd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,796
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    This is as much as I can gather on him...this is his site:

    https://www.hambini.com/about-hambini



    And his street address on Maps:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fr...628!4d-2.07523


    Maybe engineers aren't the credential-measuring type...but his lack of stating his degree is an odd omission in my book.
    Thanks Marc, and all said, not the be all if he isn't a degreed ME. GD&T as it turns out if taking a dive into the world of BB tolerance stack up's is complex, and the presenter's gloss has simplistic. He didn't perform a full tolerance stack up of BB + Bearings + crank spindle. Bearings by design inherently have angular freedom to a tolerance and of course more tolerance between slip fit crank spindle OD and bearing bore ID. The entire stack up must be considered before disparaging a major manufacturer of BB30 bikes. Anybody with a product development background sees through his silly assertions.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Fredrico's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    25,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Brilliant technical video about some manufacturers and their quality short comings.
    Time kills it with their quality. Likely why my BB30 has never made a sound. Spech and Cannondale are crap

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryhuHkbb-o
    BB30s are a crap design, a lousy alternative to threaded BBs. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

    Why press fit a huge bearing that goes up and down with each pedal stroke, trying to work loose like a tooth? Nothing like threads to hold two pieces tightly together especially resisting lateral forces. BBs are on a downhill slide, first from fully adjustable cup and cone to sealed "external" bearings. That challenged the coveted narrow Q of the crank arms. So to get the Q back to spec, designers went to BB30s. And they creak!

    If manufacturers are recommending Loc Tite, they're admitting their designs are faulty. They blew it with tolerances so have to bail out with Loc Tite. Relying on glue to withstand heavy lateral forces on imperfectly mated surfaces is asking for trouble. The old steel BB shells would be faced to fit perfectly with the BB. Can't do that with carbon, so whatever tolerances the design presents are as good as it gets.

    IME working on bikes in shops for accumulated 10 years, there's never a call for Loc Tite anywhere on a bike. If the threads are greased during installation, and the parts are torqued down to spec, it won't come apart. Except BB30s that is. Threaded cup and cone are the tried and true; sealed bearings and press fit cartridges may work great for electric motors but terrible for pedaling.

    Carbon bikes have press fit BBs by default: carbon itself is too weak to hold threads, so press fit is the only option. Unfortunately, it doesn't work all that well withstanding the lateral forces subject to BBs, hence they made 'em bigger around and they still creak.

    So here are TWO problems with carbon fiber bikes: their forks break like twigs and their BBs creak.

    I'll keep riding on steel BBs, thanks! The slight weight penalty is irrelevant. Its at the center of gravity and low on the bike, a perfect place for a little more weight.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    8,732
    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Time kills it with their quality. Likely why my BB30 has never made a sound. Spech and Cannondale are crap
    So Time is great because the were able to copy something a crap company invented. Got it.

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    BB30s are a crap design, a lousy alternative to threaded BBs.
    In massed produced frames it largely does. For me the video showed if machined correctly BB30 is fine. My Time has never made a sound with bearings pressed in. And you SHOULD NOT have to use Loctite in the process. Thats just stupid.

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    So Time is great because the were able to copy something a crap company invented. Got it.
    No. Great quality control, assembly methods and metrology.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,178
    Yeah, I've seen this guy's site before. It doesn't help IMO that he's trying to sell a "solution" to the the pressfit BB creaking problem (basically a pressfit-with-sleve) that wouldn't really solve the problem (depending on circumstances). Though I'm a different "flavor" of engineer, 11sp pretty much has it right on all counts.

    Question for 11sp, which "color" of Loctite do you advise? I'm presuming you're assuming people may want to get the bearings out at some point.

    Also, yes, the industry should never have moved away from threaded BB and damn-to-hell whoever started this whole pressfit mess.

    Edit to add: Enduro's TorqTite BB's are another solution that *has* worked IME on a number of bikes (mine and others') that I've worked on.
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

  18. #18
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: WRM4865's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    138
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post

    Edit to add: Enduro's TorqTite BB's are another solution that *has* worked IME on a number of bikes (mine and others') that I've worked on.
    I concur never had issues with the press fit bottom brackets till my last mtb got the enduro torqtite and problem solved.

    https://www.endurobearingsonline.com...f30-bb-w-xd-15

    There are solutions out there if you look hard enough. Also initial set up and bike maintenance are key to having a quite bike.

    Rule #65//Maintain and respect your machine.

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by WRM4865 View Post
    I concur never had issues with the press fit bottom brackets till my last mtb got the enduro torqtite and problem solved.

    https://www.endurobearingsonline.com...f30-bb-w-xd-15

    There are solutions out there if you look hard enough. Also initial set up and bike maintenance are key to having a quite bike.

    Rule #65//Maintain and respect your machine.
    I feel like you should not have to buy a $200 aftermarket BB to solve a subpar design issue

  20. #20
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,771
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I feel like you should not have to buy a $200 aftermarket BB to solve a subpar design issue
    Winner winner, chicken dinner.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  21. #21
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 11spd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,796
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
    Yeah, I've seen this guy's site before. It doesn't help IMO that he's trying to sell a "solution" to the the pressfit BB creaking problem (basically a pressfit-with-sleve) that wouldn't really solve the problem (depending on circumstances). Though I'm a different "flavor" of engineer, 11sp pretty much has it right on all counts.

    Question for 11sp, which "color" of Loctite do you advise? I'm presuming you're assuming people may want to get the bearings out at some point.

    Also, yes, the industry should never have moved away from threaded BB and damn-to-hell whoever started this whole pressfit mess.

    Edit to add: Enduro's TorqTite BB's are another solution that *has* worked IME on a number of bikes (mine and others') that I've worked on.
    Here you go OldChipper.
    Loctite ® 609™ Retaining Compound, Cylindrical bonding - Loctite

    Thanks and cheers. Figured you would get it.

  22. #22
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Notvintage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,211
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
    Also, yes, the industry should never have moved away from threaded BB and damn-to-hell whoever started this whole pressfit mess.
    .
    Totally agree on this. It was a move driven by bean counters as its far cheaper to go press-fit versus a machining a threaded bottom bracket. As usual, the consumer loses.

  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    278
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    I feel like you should not have to buy a $200 aftermarket BB to solve a subpar design issue
    Torqtite is a premium version of a threaded sleeve BB adapter. Praxis, Wheels Manufacturing, and probably others make good quality versions without the premium price. I've used Torqtite, Praxis and Wheels versions of these and they all work fine.

    I might splurge on a Torqtite on a high end bike with premium components, but you can definitely get the job done for a lot less money with the same end result.

  24. #24
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,178
    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Here you go OldChipper.
    Loctite ® 609™ Retaining Compound, Cylindrical bonding - Loctite

    Thanks and cheers. Figured you would get it.
    Thanks!
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    Torqtite is a premium version of a threaded sleeve BB adapter. Praxis, Wheels Manufacturing, and probably others make good quality versions without the premium price. I've used Torqtite, Praxis and Wheels versions of these and they all work fine.

    I might splurge on a Torqtite on a high end bike with premium components, but you can definitely get the job done for a lot less money with the same end result.
    Oh yeah, I'm sure the others are fine too, and I totally agree that I shouldn't have to invest even more in a bike just to make it work that way it should in the first place. Tough to find many bikes without some flavor of pressfit these days though (Yay Pinarello!) Just sharing what I've used and that works.
    Well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man. - The Dude

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-13-2013, 07:28 AM
  2. Hey, French (or French-speaking) peoples>>>
    By S2H in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 05-04-2011, 04:37 AM
  3. Best Place to Buy Cevelo Framesets Online
    By SROC3 in forum Hot Deals
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-10-2010, 02:09 PM
  4. Best puntcure proof tires
    By teffisk in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-08-2007, 03:35 PM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-21-2005, 06:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.