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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff400650 View Post
    For what it's worth, I had constant problems with burning sensation at perineum, followed by totally numb wiener on any ride that lasted more than an hour or so. Tried 6 different saddles. Finally got a Selle SMP 209 Lite, and everything got 90% better. But I would still get uncomfortable down there on really long rides. I got Capo Padrone bibs and OMG, what a difference! I had been using Performance Ultra bibs and thought they were good, but the Padrones are vastly better for me. I can go for many hours now with the SMP and the good bibs, especially if I stand to pedal when the opportunity presents. I am a fan of the big cutout - vagina - in the seat. And don't forget to consider quality bibs... they can make a bigger difference than you would imagine.
    That's a good point to bring up about the quality bibs/shorts. A well designed chamois makes a big difference compared to the cheap versions out there.

    I look back at the old natural chamois I used to ride with and other really crappy designs in the past and am amazed they didn't destroy my "life essence".

    "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfaas View Post
    Crank length? -2.5 mm change in crank length will allow you 5 mm at the top with the same knee angle. Only a thought.

    Your problem sounds more like the saddle though, especially if you are trying new ones. There are so many shapes now, it is hard to choose. I would approach it like new shoes or boots: you shouldn't think "I'll get used to it", it should just fit.
    Good suggestion. I was having problems with my left knee (and dickal numbness, now that I think about it) when I had 172.5 cranks. I changed to 170 cranks and wallah, no more knee problems or schwanschtukkerial numbness.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff400650 View Post
    For what it's worth, I had constant problems with burning sensation at perineum, followed by totally numb wiener on any ride that lasted more than an hour or so. Tried 6 different saddles. Finally got a Selle SMP 209 Lite, and everything got 90% better. But I would still get uncomfortable down there on really long rides. I got Capo Padrone bibs and OMG, what a difference! I had been using Performance Ultra bibs and thought they were good, but the Padrones are vastly better for me. I can go for many hours now with the SMP and the good bibs, especially if I stand to pedal when the opportunity presents. I am a fan of the big cutout - vagina - in the seat. And don't forget to consider quality bibs... they can make a bigger difference than you would imagine.

    i have often wonder if bibs made a difference. because all my bibs are fairly budget. it seems maybe i should invest in something a bit more sophisticated....

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    Good suggestion. I was having problems with my left knee (and dickal numbness, now that I think about it) when I had 172.5 cranks. I changed to 170 cranks and wallah, no more knee problems or schwanschtukkerial numbness.
    ha! i can't believe this. so many factors can contribute. how tall are you, Spike?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    That's an interesting diagnosis! I remember exactly that happening in the early years. I was so into it, so intensely wrapped up in the moment, I'd be tightening sphincter muscles that cut off urine flow so tight, I'd cut off blood flow to the johnson.

    Haven't had that feeling in years. I can only credit the art of spinning, for not only that, but also knee problems I occasionally had. Fast twitch anaerobic efforts will make you strong, but not tough. They'll tighten you up. Spinning relaxes the muscles and allows them to find the most efficient pedal stroke; it becomes internalized; so translates into the most efficient high intensity efforts, too. Training slow twitch aerobic fibers will make you tough. They don't give up. Spinning relaxes the legs enough to work those aerobic fibers. That's how I broke through the pelvic floor.

    Heck, sometimes it's just a simple matter of changing pace.
    spinning is definitely something i have been working on. i actually just changed my crank from a standard to a compact for that exact reason. since i am currently looking into a new bike (a frameset to be exact, which i will build up myself), i will be able to spec every exactly as i want. so this is a good time to get a bike that helps contribute to the health of my Business Bits.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by octave View Post
    ha! i can't believe this. so many factors can contribute. how tall are you, Spike?
    5' 8"


    Edit to add: To cure the knee problem, it also took some futzing around with seat height and tilt and fore-aft position, and cleat position on my shoes. One of my legs, I forget which, is about a half inch shorter than the other one. My left knee was the one getting Iliotibial band syndrome. I like the 170 cranks and would never go back to 172.5. I didn't think 2.5 mm would have any effect, but apparently it does.
    Last edited by SPlKE; 04-18-2015 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #32
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    I've been riding for 30 years and haven't experienced this. I started riding on SI Turbos, then Turbomatics, Turbomatic II's, and for the last 15 years, SSM Regals. All of my bikes have the same saddle with the same center to top measurement (84cm). Regals fit me and unless something physically changes, I will continue to use them.

    As far as seeing a fitter for your saddle position, there are varying opinions about how to set up saddle height and fore/aft position over the bottom bracket. Just because a fitter set you up doesn't mean you need to look elsewhere to find a cause of numbness. If you look at costs and time spent with doctors (who probably don't ride or even understand a cyclist's position), seeing another fitter is probably worth the money.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by octave View Post
    i have often wonder if bibs made a difference. because all my bibs are fairly budget. it seems maybe i should invest in something a bit more sophisticated....
    Well its mainly how the butt fits on the saddle that determines long term comfort, but cheap bibs shorten the time it takes to go numb. Assos bibs [F1 Mille] are ergonomically designed to provide room for the equipment so it doesn't get crushed by the fabric. Quite nice! The padding is also the best of all I've tried, Performance, Pearl Izumi, etc. I have a sneaky suspicion you get what you pay for in bibs and shorts.

    First thing to do though, is make sure its not the saddle.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    I've been riding for 30 years and haven't experienced this. I started riding on SI Turbos, then Turbomatics, Turbomatic II's, and for the last 15 years, SSM Regals. All of my bikes have the same saddle with the same center to top measurement (84cm). Regals fit me and unless something physically changes, I will continue to use them.

    As far as seeing a fitter for your saddle position, there are varying opinions about how to set up saddle height and fore/aft position over the bottom bracket. Just because a fitter set you up doesn't mean you need to look elsewhere to find a cause of numbness. If you look at costs and time spent with doctors (who probably don't ride or even understand a cyclist's position), seeing another fitter is probably worth the money.
    Right on with saddle choices. Same here. My butt is used to classic shaped saddles, precisely the Turbo and Regal. Selle Italia reissued their Turbo a few years ago. I've got one squirreled away for future use. Never had any luck with cutouts. All they did was concentrate the pressure along the ridges of the cutout! But I was probably sitting on it wrong.

  10. #35
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    Just a few observations, riding technique and saddle time. A lot of spinning has me putting more butt weight for longer periods. So for me not over doing it by grabbing a bigger gear and getting off the saddle more than periodically both works some diff muscles and gets some air time for my ars, as in off the saddle and some relief. Bigger gear, more weight offset, a dichotomy.

    A saddle that allows for some shifting to move pressures around seems a good thing. I also have bought extras of the ones that work. I grab used saddles as often as I can just to try different ones sans reviews which are useless IMO to extreme subjectivity. I get surprised and for example got a well used Fizik Arione for free and it works for me so well I went and got another newer one. And may watch for more in the future.

    An observation on the Arione is that is really easy to get behind it and back onto it due to the rear taper.
    A few stoppies and front tire skids emergent stops shows this as an attribute from my experience.

    It is so different to each rider as to make dialog have limited use I have found.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robt57/Me!
    Everything you read that I post is just '1' guy's opinion, try to sort it all out best you can. ;) I will try to add value in my posts, if I miss the mark please let me know using a little decorum.

  11. #36
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    I'm on the Paradigm RL. I went one size up from the ass'O'meter... I have a Selle SMP on my other bike, it's OK, but too padded. It's a huge step up from the stock Cannondale saddle. That one gave me those symptoms. The feeling of needing to pee when I didn't have to. That came back on the thinner less padded RXL I tried. I only 75-80 miles on the RXL this week and did a 21 today, so no great volume of data yet, but it's been good so far. Maybe try going one size wider than you measure? FEIW of course...
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt57 View Post
    Just a few observations, riding technique and saddle time. A lot of spinning has me putting more butt weight for longer periods. So for me not over doing it by grabbing a bigger gear and getting off the saddle more than periodically both works some diff muscles and gets some air time for my ars, as in off the saddle and some relief. Bigger gear, more weight offset, a dichotomy.

    A saddle that allows for some shifting to move pressures around seems a good thing. I also have bought extras of the ones that work. I grab used saddles as often as I can just to try different ones sans reviews which are useless IMO to extreme subjectivity. I get surprised and for example got a well used Fizik Arione for free and it works for me so well I went and got another newer one. And may watch for more in the future.

    An observation on the Arione is that is really easy to get behind it and back onto it due to the rear taper.
    A few stoppies and front tire skids emergent stops shows this as an attribute from my experience.

    It is so different to each rider as to make dialog have limited use I have found.
    that bigger gear observation is very interesting and i think may have something to it. i never had these problems until i started using 52/36 and 50/34. i spent years on a standard 53/39 and never had issues beyond discomfort on the bike that disappeared once i was off... i assumed my recent issues were just a continuation of saddle issues, but maybe it is saddle plus chainring change?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I'm on the Paradigm RL. I went one size up from the ass'O'meter... I have a Selle SMP on my other bike, it's OK, but too padded. It's a huge step up from the stock Cannondale saddle. That one gave me those symptoms. The feeling of needing to pee when I didn't have to. That came back on the thinner less padded RXL I tried. I only 75-80 miles on the RXL this week and did a 21 today, so no great volume of data yet, but it's been good so far. Maybe try going one size wider than you measure? FEIW of course...
    i went up one size on the specialized ass o meter, from 143 to 155, which was way to wide. no symptoms that we've been talking about, but discomfort further back where the glutes meet yhe hammy kind of. so i sm going to try a 143 specialized and see what happens. i am taking the Bontrager RL back because i got it right when all this flared up and have not been sble to ride it and won't be able to before the 30-day comfort guarantee is up. so i will take it back then buy it again when i am actually able to test it...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    I'm on the Paradigm RL. I went one size up from the ass'O'meter... I have a Selle SMP on my other bike, it's OK, but too padded. It's a huge step up from the stock Cannondale saddle. That one gave me those symptoms. The feeling of needing to pee when I didn't have to. That came back on the thinner less padded RXL I tried. I only 75-80 miles on the RXL this week and did a 21 today, so no great volume of data yet, but it's been good so far. Maybe try going one size wider than you measure? FEIW of course...
    hey i forgot to ask. was the sensation of needing to pee when you actually didn't need to only when you were on the bike? or was it off the bike, too? if it was off the bike, too, how long did it take to go away? and to alleviate the symptoms, what did you do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by octave View Post
    that bigger gear observation is very interesting and i think may have something to it. i never had these problems until i started using 52/36 and 50/34. i spent years on a standard 53/39 and never had issues beyond discomfort on the bike that disappeared once i was off... i assumed my recent issues were just a continuation of saddle issues, but maybe it is saddle plus chainring change?
    IOW, now that you're on "easy gears," your spin is up, you lose track of how hard your butt is taking the faster cadences, and the poor ole perineum gets hit hard. When you were in bigger gears, pushing the pedals lightened up the taint and it didn't hurt after the ride?

    Robt57 is definitely on to something.

    I've had the sensation of wanting to pee after crushing the urethra on a long ride. The same nerves are stimulated as the ones telling you to pee. It went away after a good night's sleep.

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    I love the Romin, I have 3 of them, TI, full carbon minimal padded race one that I can't remember the model and the last is the carbon with the gel. The minimal padded seats are very much the same but the gel is not, it's good for an hour then starts to hurt, on 3 hour rides I would be sore for hours after.
    I narrowed it down to the gel, beginning of ride I sit on top of the seat, after an hour the seat has a noticeable indent from my sit bones, it's also softer if you squeeze. I think you sink into it and the gel moves coming out at other areas without weight on it.

    long story but it's now on my MTB where there is more standing and less sitting.

    One other thing I find most don't do is pay attention to your Posistion and reset constantly, winds, hills or efforts put you in a different area on the seat, take a second to get back on your sit bones.
    Last one Is flex ability, try to pivot above your pelvis with your lower back, this keeps you planted in the seat for the hoods or bar tops. Once you go into the drops it's another story but do what you can to feel the pressure, adjust or move around till better.

    Bottom line is measure comfort and adjust constantly, don't just sit there and get hurt..
    Hope something there helps you.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by octave View Post
    hey i forgot to ask. was the sensation of needing to pee when you actually didn't need to only when you were on the bike? or was it off the bike, too? if it was off the bike, too, how long did it take to go away? and to alleviate the symptoms, what did you do?
    It was after riding. I didn't ride that saddle a second time. It lasted about 2-3 hours and went away on it's own. I kept going to the bathroom for nothing because I had the sensation constantly. Weird. Hasn't happened on my current saddle.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  18. #43
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    One easy fix is find an experienced and knowledgable fitter. They can likely spot problems quickly. Self diagnosis, trying various saddles, many adjustments that can cause other problems, etc. turns into a long, long experiment.

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    so i went ahead and rode 53 miles yesterday, in spite of the worry of saddle-related issues. and the result? surprisingly, i seem to be doing better than before! less of a feeling of needing to piss all the time, although the pain in the tip of penis is still there, but not as bad as it was at its worst. testicular pain is more or less gone... crazy. i have my fingers crossed that it will continue to get better, though i have to admit i am still a bit nervous to really ride like i used to...

    that being said, here were the changes i made:

    new bike (i know right?) where my reach is the same, though the saddle to bar drop was about 4 centimeters less, i.e. 6.5cm now instead of 10.5.

    new crankset 53/39 chainrings with 172.5mm crankarms instead of 50/34, 175

    new saddle - surprisingly, it was a Fizik Arione Versus (not the versus X with the extra deep channel) as that was all i had on hand having recently sold my old bike and saddles that had caused troubles.... the Fizik curse seemed to have been lifted, at least for yesterday.

    and, that's about it for changes.

    i am hesitant to go out and try another ride to see if it still feels ok, or now that i AM feeling better to stay off the bike a bit longer and see if that helps.

    in any case, thank you all for contributing to this conversation. i will keep everyone up to date on what happens with my Business.

  20. #45
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    My PN happened about a year ago. My life was riding bicycles and motorcycles. I have easily over 200,000 miles on my butt between the two. I averaged 6,000 miles on the bicycle a year for over 30 years, it was what I did every chance that I got. So ignoring pain was part of my life, a pain would always go away or "fix itself" as I would say. Well last year the pain that I was experiencing was not going away, even off the bike, so I rode more on the motorcycle and even that induced pain. After two months I started the merry go round of doctors, therapy, chiropractors, pills. Nothing would touch it. I found that some people had heard of it but no one had a cure. One of the therapies was a pelvic nurse sicking her finger up the butt and saying "now just relax the muscle" yeah right.
    I let 6 months go by and I gave up the bicycle and motorcycle but I could still work as a landscaper. The only time the pain went away was when I was asleep. Thank god I could sleep good. But the whole time I was fighting the pain and around month 6 it was winning and I was failing. I would sit in my truck and ice it till I was numb and then work for 10 min and go back to the truck. This was not working. I became suicidal because I had tried everything and nothing worked. I had to sit on a rubber donut to sit in a chair or drive. I had learned that there is no cure for PN and was devastated. By this time I had stopped working because I couldn't, my business was in the toilet. I was telling people that I had picked out a bridge to jump from and this was true. The thought of living in chronic pain for the rest of my life was unbearable. Well word of all this had gotten to a distant relative and I got a phone call saying that she was taking me to a pain doctor that day, I was open to that.
    2 weeks later I was back to being myself and working again. He gave me a pill called Subutex.It is an opiate. It only works for pain on some people and I got lucky, it has many side effects that are not so great. My whole life I was against cures like this but then all my ills would go away in time, this one wouldn't. For the next 4 months I did not dare sit on my cycles and I was just enjoying my pain free existence. Then I tried riding for an hour, it was ok, no hurt. But I knew the pill was masking the pain, but that was ok I was riding again. Now I am up to 35 miles but I am afraid to go any further because all this pill does is turn off pain receptors in your brain, but it works and I am happy now.
    The only lesson I have learned from all this is don't ignore pain, especially if it's "down there".

  21. #46
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    So, this lovely problem just cropped up for me out of nowhere 2 weeks ago. I've ridden on a Selle Italia Flite Flow for years with no problems, proper fitting beginning and mid-season, couple of metric centuries since. It seemed to have happened after one of my 30 mile training rides, so that adds to the oddness of why it cropped up. I tried one 10 mile ride after a week of improved symptoms, only to see them return.

    I'm pretty diligent about getting out of the saddle and I certainly take advantage of the real estate while on saddle, so that isn't it. I've taken to getting a Romin Evo Pro to see if that helps, as the canal is wider, longer, and the seat offers a less flat profile compared to the Selle. Unfortunately, I am not particularly optimistic as just sitting on the seat for a few minutes to get a sense of position has flared up the symptoms again.

    I've recently gone to the urologist, so I am pretty confident nothing is going on there, but I guess a f/u is in order to at least discuss the problem. I'm starting to lean towards this being more pudendal artery than nerve, but who knows. Just wanted to put this out there and get a little feedback.

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    hey there!

    yeah... it does seem to just crop up out of nowhere... my own PN is better, but still not great. some rides i am fine, some rides my symptoms (pain in the perineum or tip of penis and/or increased urgency to piss) come back and stick around for a few days even off the bike. i have found that going to a "men's health physical therapist", i.e. a PT specializing in pelvic floor disorders, helps a ton (some things are not fun that they do, i.e. internal activation via the rectum of the pelvic floor muscles to get them to loosen, but they help if you are serious about wanting to get back on the bike). this summer i was able to do a 120-mile ride with no problem, which is unbelievable. but, strangely enough, it seems shorter, less intense rides cause more issues. the 120 was the longest i had ever done, and also at a fairly hard tempo (for me) of 19.6 mph all told.... so, there is help to be had from a PT.... i have also found that the saddle choice is huge. Specialized Power Saddle is my go-to. i can't even sit on certain brands (e.g. Fizik, Selle Italia) without instant pain. almost all of specialized's offerings work well, but the Power especially. not sure what else... oh, yeah. start stretching! start foam-rolling! especially the glutes, but also work on loosening up your adductors, your quads, and your hip-flexors...

    sorry for the slow response... hope that helps!

    o

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post
    So, this lovely problem just cropped up for me out of nowhere 2 weeks ago. I've ridden on a Selle Italia Flite Flow for years with no problems, proper fitting beginning and mid-season, couple of metric centuries since. It seemed to have happened after one of my 30 mile training rides, so that adds to the oddness of why it cropped up. I tried one 10 mile ride after a week of improved symptoms, only to see them return.

    I'm pretty diligent about getting out of the saddle and I certainly take advantage of the real estate while on saddle, so that isn't it. I've taken to getting a Romin Evo Pro to see if that helps, as the canal is wider, longer, and the seat offers a less flat profile compared to the Selle. Unfortunately, I am not particularly optimistic as just sitting on the seat for a few minutes to get a sense of position has flared up the symptoms again.

    I've recently gone to the urologist, so I am pretty confident nothing is going on there, but I guess a f/u is in order to at least discuss the problem. I'm starting to lean towards this being more pudendal artery than nerve, but who knows. Just wanted to put this out there and get a little feedback.
    How did this turn out? I had the same thing. Happened out of nowhere last summer. Aching pain in my perenium after a ride. I bike a handful more times after but it did not go away. It did get alot better but never disappeared. I took 5 months of the bike, seen a pelvic floor pysio, drs, chiro and nothing really helped or was able to tell me what was going on. The PT and chyro didn't think it sounded like PN as I only have the pain in the centre of my perenium, no other symptoms. Anyway, Tuesday I decided I was feeling pretty decent the last month and decided to try a 20 minute trainer ride and that was a bad idea. Now at square one.

    Another interesting thing is that I never have pain during the ride, or even immediralty after. It is in bed when I am trying to sleep it starts happeneing and then last at its highest intensity for several weeks.
    My saddle is a Specilized Power.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnk_3 View Post
    How did this turn out? I had the same thing. Happened out of nowhere last summer. Aching pain in my perenium after a ride. I bike a handful more times after but it did not go away. It did get alot better but never disappeared. I took 5 months of the bike, seen a pelvic floor pysio, drs, chiro and nothing really helped or was able to tell me what was going on. The PT and chyro didn't think it sounded like PN as I only have the pain in the centre of my perenium, no other symptoms. Anyway, Tuesday I decided I was feeling pretty decent the last month and decided to try a 20 minute trainer ride and that was a bad idea. Now at square one.

    Another interesting thing is that I never have pain during the ride, or even immediralty after. It is in bed when I am trying to sleep it starts happeneing and then last at its highest intensity for several weeks.
    My saddle is a Specilized Power.
    So the key for me was that I was more often than not experiencing RELIEF when riding. This, of course confounded the GP, urologist, and GI doc (I suspected possible internal hemorrhoids). Ultimately, I conceded and sought out a proctologist as both the GI and uro felt it may be pelvic floor dysfunction.

    Sure enough, the proctologist said I had a classic case, so I began a low dose regimen of Elavil (amitriptyline), a tricyclic antidepressant. I also incorporated a daily regimen of consuming coarse fiber Metamucil. Both of these interventions have completely eliminated the symptoms I experienced, although I do occasionally see a mild flare-up when particularly stressed (don't have an easy life, unfortunately). When this happens, I take a dose of Cialis to increase blood flow to the region and that pretty much solves it.

    Why did I get relief on the bike? The working theory is that I was entering a zone of significantly decreased stress, coupled with the increase in sympathetic tone, thereby stopping the spasming of the pelvic floor muscles. Is it correct? I'm inclined to believe so as it makes sense from a physiological standpoint, but it's highly subjective as well.

    TL;DR- if your pain/paresthesia is located in the penis and perirectal region, consider pelvic floor dysnfunction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post
    So the key for me was that I was more often than not experiencing RELIEF when riding. This, of course confounded the GP, urologist, and GI doc (I suspected possible internal hemorrhoids). Ultimately, I conceded and sought out a proctologist as both the GI and uro felt it may be pelvic floor dysfunction.

    Sure enough, the proctologist said I had a classic case, so I began a low dose regimen of Elavil (amitriptyline), a tricyclic antidepressant. I also incorporated a daily regimen of consuming coarse fiber Metamucil. Both of these interventions have completely eliminated the symptoms I experienced, although I do occasionally see a mild flare-up when particularly stressed (don't have an easy life, unfortunately). When this happens, I take a dose of Cialis to increase blood flow to the region and that pretty much solves it.

    Why did I get relief on the bike? The working theory is that I was entering a zone of significantly decreased stress, coupled with the increase in sympathetic tone, thereby stopping the spasming of the pelvic floor muscles. Is it correct? I'm inclined to believe so as it makes sense from a physiological standpoint, but it's highly subjective as well.

    TL;DR- if your pain/paresthesia is located in the penis and perirectal region, consider pelvic floor dysnfunction.
    Interesting, I would say I had relief on the bike too, at least the pain never popped into my mind.
    I have seen a pelvic floor pysio a number of times but felt that was making things worse and was uncomfortable af. How long would you say it was from when you first had symptons to when you were able to ride again and be pain free after?

    Before I was rode the other day, my pain was just a mild discomfort. It doesn't help I sit for 8 hours a day at work. That was the only time it was sztart to hurt a little, after 6 hours or so, but the pain wouldn't linger at the end of the day. I will mention this to the doctor next time I go in. I have an ultgra sound of the perenail area on Tuesday. (I know it won't show anything but it's the steps you have to take to get anywhere)


    Thanks for the quick resonse.

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