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  1. #26
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    my first attempt with the 40t cassette with a long cage on the 105 derailleur. Worked beautifully except in the big/small combo when letting off the pedaling quickly then the chain slapped badly...
    Shimano Ultegra R8000 drivetrain missed the Boat...-img_1884.jpg

  2. #27
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    my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur and the tanpan. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap.
    Shimano Ultegra R8000 drivetrain missed the Boat...-img_1982.jpg

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur and the tanpan. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note the difference in cage length and derailleur geometry. Even with a clutch, the 105 would not have worked well.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Note the difference in cage length and derailleur geometry. Even with a clutch, the 105 would not have worked well.
    that particular pic may have been before I swapped the cage with a longer one.

    it really did shift nicely. note; the only issue I had was in the 11 tooth, the other cogs seemed to pull enough tension to eleminate the harsh chain slap.
    I removed a link from the chain but almost went big big when I was tired and woulda ripped off my derailleur.

    here is a pic of the 105 that definitely has the longer cage..
    Shimano Ultegra R8000 drivetrain missed the Boat...-img_1900.jpg
    Last edited by factory feel; 06-12-2017 at 12:49 PM.

  5. #30
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    There are certainly use cases for a clutched derailluer on a road bike, however, probably not enough to warrant adding the feature to the U-8000 system (or Dura Ace for that matter). For those rare situations where someone might actually *need* a clutch (like yours), there are other solutions out there (like yours), including a Di2 setup with an XT rear derailluer.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    There are certainly use cases for a clutched derailluer on a road bike, however, probably not enough to warrant adding the feature to the U-8000 system (or Dura Ace for that matter). For those rare situations where someone might actually *need* a clutch (like yours), there are other solutions out there (like yours), including a Di2 setup with an XT rear derailluer.
    this is something I want to investigate for a bike i have with ultegra 10s di2.

    I want a stronger spring for the derailler because I'm running an xt 11-36 cassette on it with the road link.

    I haven't ridden it yet to see if chain slack will be an issue though.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The XT derailleur not only has a longer cage (total chain wrap capacity) than the longest (mid-cage) Shimano road derailleurs, but the geometry of the derailleur is different as well.

    So this is why even with the long mountain bike cage, the road derailleur will have problems. A clutch will not change this.

    If the XT works, no reason to change it.
    The shadow design now on DA and Ultegra is more than just the inward position. The second design feature of this is that the guide jockey wheel has more consistent spacing to the cogs across the range of the cassette vs. road designs.

    So the geometry advantage of the XT is now also on r9100 and r8000.

    But if the clutch is what you want, the XT is basically a clutched r8000 now right?
    use a torque wrench

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    The shadow design now on DA and Ultegra is more than just the inward position. The second design feature of this is that the guide jockey wheel has more consistent spacing to the cogs across the range of the cassette vs. road designs.

    So the geometry advantage of the XT is now also on r9100 and r8000.

    But if the clutch is what you want, the XT is basically a clutched r8000 now right?

    hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.
    On one of shimano's tech videos they said they are. The only caveat they mentioned regarding backwards compatibility was, as MMs said, you should match the new front mech to the new front crank for optimal front shifting.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

  10. #35
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    AKAIK, you can't mix 11-speed road shifters with mountain rear derailleurs in mechanical (Di2 is ok). Different pull ratios.
    https://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-x...ible-questions

    That's why the Tapan (shown above) is needed/useful.
    https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...roducts/tanpan

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.
    Let's see:

    Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their mountain groupos when they went to 10-speed.

    Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their road groupos when they went to 11-speed.

    You are using an XT (mountain) rear derailleur and 105 (road) shifters and they shift correctly. Right?

    It appears to me they are compatible, unless pull ratios were changed again with the 8000/9100.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Let's see:

    Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their mountain groupos when they went to 10-speed.

    Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their road groupos when they went to 11-speed.
    Just because they changed does not mean they changed to be the same. It is possible, but not what happened in this instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    You are using an XT (mountain) rear derailleur and 105 (road) shifters and they shift correctly. Right?

    It appears to me they are compatible, unless pull ratios were changed again with the 8000/9100.
    You missed the most important part from his post that proves your assumption wrong.

    "my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur and the tanpan. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap." (Look at his pic and see the Tapan attached to the derailleur where the cable enters)

    The Tapan is needed to correct for the difference in the pull ratios. See my link above in post #35.
    Last edited by Chader09; 06-13-2017 at 05:33 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post

    The Tapan is needed to correct for the difference in the pull ratios. See my link above in post #35.
    Ahhh, so that's what the Tanpan is for. I stand corrected!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Ahhh, so that's what the Tanpan is for. I stand corrected!
    exactly.

  15. #40
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    IIRC, R9100 series Di2 is no longer compatible with M9000 Di2. Which means R8000 may not be compatible with the new XT Di2.

  16. #41
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    This whole thing is like complaining an Aero frame missed the boat by not having clearance for 40mm tires and rack mounts.

    If your ability and/or terrain doesn't allow you to use a regular road racing set up you bought the wrong thing or need to live with jerry-rigging.

    Do you expect them to redesign what's designed for road racing so 1% can use a 40 cog while probably making the other 99% unhappy?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    This whole thing is like complaining an Aero frame missed the boat by not having clearance for 40mm tires and rack mounts.

    If your ability and/or terrain doesn't allow you to use a regular road racing set up you bought the wrong thing or need to live with jerry-rigging.

    Do you expect them to redesign what's designed for road racing so 1% can use a 40 cog while probably making the other 99% unhappy?

    So what are you supposed to buy if you want 11 speed and brifters and lower-range gearing exactly. Do tell. Oh wait...Shimano ceased selling products that did. So their "road racing set-up" is now the only game in town. Same for Campag.


    "Gravel" is a segment taking off (again) because there are millions of miles of MMR unmaintained roads in the USA and elsewhere. And Shimano doesn't sell a product that serves it.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  18. #43
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    It's not like we are expecting an entire group. All we need is a clutch-equipped rear der that works with their road shifters.

    One that has a wide range like the new R8000 or even closer to the M8000 could be nice. 36t to 40t max seems reasonable.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    It's not like we are expecting an entire group. All we need is a clutch-equipped rear der. One that has a wide range like the new R8000 or even closer to the M8000 could be nice. 36t to 40t max seems reasonable.

    Or a lower-geared crankset. Shimano voluntarily killed the triple with 11speed, and suddenly expects everyone to get by on a 34T min LOL.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    So what are you supposed to buy if you want 11 speed and brifters and lower-range gearing exactly. Do tell. Oh wait...Shimano ceased selling products that did. So their "road racing set-up" is now the only game in town. Same for Campag.


    "Gravel" is a segment taking off (again) because there are millions of miles of MMR unmaintained roads in the USA and elsewhere. And Shimano doesn't sell a product that serves it.
    Get Sram rival, a smaller crank or jerry-rig (like I said) Shimano. yes, gravel riding is taking off and everyone doing it seems to be doing just fine so I don't know why Ultegra off the shelf not being suited for it would be a big deal. Don't run Ultegra stock then.

  21. #46
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    Shimano and others want to eliminate the triples but failed to recognize that a large segment of their consumers (yes includes roadies) need lower gears for extreme or lengthy hills. Currently the only mod that makes sense if you own 6800 stuff is changing the standard 50/34 compact to FSA's 46/30.. Its the same ole stuff, they fail to recognize that the new design does not fit all!!!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by n2deep View Post
    Shimano and others want to eliminate the triples but failed to recognize that a large segment of their consumers (yes includes roadies) need lower gears for extreme or lengthy hills. Currently the only mod that makes sense if you own 6800 stuff is changing the standard 50/34 compact to FSA's 46/30.. Its the same ole stuff, they fail to recognize that the new design does not fit all!!!
    One other option,, some bike stores will install triples on new bikes.

  23. #48
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    If there is market demand, someone (shimano or otherwise) will fill it.

    FSA (and probably others) offer a line of 'adventure' cranksets that can be used to augment gearing.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by n2deep View Post
    One other option,, some bike stores will install triples on new bikes.
    What 11 speed road group supports a triple? None.

  25. #50
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    Your correct, 11sp will not work in the front/triple,, you have to go old school,, like I said i's mix and match..

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