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  1. #26
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    Not liking discs is a completely valid opinion. Having said that, what pros ride on a flat race when supported by team cars, with a fleet of mechanics at their disposal, beholden to race rules and beholden to sponsor requirements should have absolutely zero bearing on the personal preferences of weekend warriors. It should go without saying that pro bikes are for pro racing and don't necessarily represent the "best" solution for everyone.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    yes it's the monocoque large exterior shell that creates teh stiffness, not the BB insert structure. I had n 07 S Works Tarmac, with a small monocoque exterior shell in the BB area, and it was not very stiff at all. almost the shape of alu tubing instead of a CF monocoque we see today
    The layup and what direction the fibers are oriented that is much more important than the 'shape'.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Just to clarify...it's impossible to 'remove disc brakes and install rim brakes'...they used different bikes.
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    Try the decaf, dude.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Just to clarify...it's impossible to 'remove disc brakes and install rim brakes'...they used different bikes.
    that might be the next big thing, frames that accept either.

    hermaphrobikes?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    that might be the next big thing, frames that accept either.

    hermaphrobikes?
    My roadbike...and MTB...and my wife's MTB (but not her road bike) all have both disc and rim brake mounting points.
    I lost my phone number. Can I have yours?

  7. #32
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    Holy Jesus...you need to calm down. And what do mean "I don't want to ban him..."? Since when are you a moderator?
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  8. #33
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    this thread

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    The layup and what direction the fibers are oriented that is much more important than the 'shape'.
    Nope. Incorrect. The size, shape and thickness of the carbon fiber which begets section modulus and moment of inertia matters much more than fiber orientation when it comes to bending stiffness and overall strength.
    FWIW

  10. #35
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Nope. Incorrect. The size, shape and thickness of the carbon fiber which begets section modulus and moment of inertia matters much more than fiber orientation when it comes to bending stiffness and overall strength.
    FWIW
    I made these little demonstration pieces when I was visiting Cervelo a few years ago. 4 layers of the same exact material. 1 piece the fibers of all 4 pieces ran the length of the sample, the other one had them alternating at a 45* angle from the centerline. The first sample was very stiff along it's length, but was very torsionally flexible. The second sample was the opposite, flexible on the length but torsionally super still. How do you explain that? Obviously more layers (thickness) should be 'stiffer', right? But fiber orientation was very important according to Damon Rinard. I guess it's all part of the puzzle, yeah?
    I work for some bike racers
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    speaking of harassment......
    try ride you're bike.
    Blows your hair back.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    Whaaaaaa.. Want some cheese with your whine? Or better yet how about you take a break from the forum? The best part is he quoted exactly what you wrote.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    The layup and what direction the fibers are oriented that is much more important than the 'shape'.
    I agree with that too. My new Kona superjake has a more traditional 'tubing joint' design unlike the huge-monocoque shell of the specializeds. and yet it is very stiff indeed. (and yes I realize the suerjake is technicall a monocoque construction, just the shape is more reminiscent of a tubing joint)
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    At Paris-Roubaix the past few days, visited all team buses, went to presentations of Teams, etc. Weather was fantastic.

    Not one team had a rider on Specialized' infamous cobbler-gobbler (CG-R) seatpost. Not even any of the Specialized sponsored riders/teams.

    Furthermore, at the request of the two Specialized-sponsored teams, disc brakes we removed off the bikes and caliper (dura-ace) brakes put on.

    Makes one wonder.

    What and/or who is actually running Specialized? And what have they (and others in the industry) been trying to foist off on consumers all this time?? Pros don't seem to want stuff that is currently being pushed, and more than a few of them yesterday, when directly asked by people in a group as we all gawked, said the "only" reason they are using disc brakes is because of sponsor obligations. What was even more notable is more than a few of them said they wouldn't ride disc brakes if the choice was up to them. And these were young guys talking too, not just the seasoned pros.

    I guess we all can't be Sagans...Sagan forced Specialized to remove the disc brakes on his Roubaix model, and also refused to use the CG-R seatpost. Don't know if there's any truth to this, but rumors is push-back from a lot of teams (BOH included) Specialized have sponsored is what caused them to bring back threaded bottom brackets on the Roubaix & other models this year. Main reason? Riders were tired of the constant creaking, groaning, popping, etc, etc of pressfit BBs. Wow, does that sound familiar to us or what??!! Sagan's BB on his Roubaix yesterday was a Dura Ace threaded, if I saw right-----tried to get a close-up pic, but was getting jostled & trampled around by 100s of rabid Sagan fans that it was impossible


    Sure would be nice for ALL bike manufacturers to stop shoving disc brakes, pressfit BBs, and idiot-components (like the CG-R) that even Pros won't use when given to them for free.

    Quit treating us as your test guinea-pigs!

    Just my 2 cents.
    Well we all want to be like the pros--you know, dopers with no life (both pervasive in all pro sports).

    It is not, nor has it ever been, the pros who are demanding hydraulic disc brakes. It has been the marketplace that has driven the demand for these brakes. To be sure, there are a lot of folks who don't want to try hydraulic discs for various reasons--some real --most imagined.

    I ride with several folks who have converted and none have considered it a mistake nor have they considered going back to rim brakes (I ride with folks who like riding in the mountains).

    Eventually, races with high speed twisting descents will be raced on disc brakes and flat stages will not. Superior brakes make no difference where brakes aren't needed or used (like Paris Roubaix). The good news is that bikes will continue to be made with both types of brakes for now. That should help stifle the whining from flat-earth Luddites.
    Last edited by SwiftSolo; 04-09-2018 at 07:11 PM.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    Actually, when I saw the claim that riders had their disc brakes "removed" I assumed that it was you who was either clueless or attempting to convince the less informed that "removal" was possible--that specialized had developed a kind of "trans" bike for those who are unhappy with their current hardware.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    Unbelievable. Cxwrench, you do really need to step away from the forum and take a break, or even better, a long sabbatical. You made an a##hole correction where none was even remotely due.

    There is no one here, that read the message, that even remotely assumed that suddenly the disc brakes & their wheels were removed at Paris-Roubaix day of the race and caliper-brakes suddenly put on. Grow up. Stop being a corrective juvenile. Your posts, the idiocy of them, the subtle harassment, has to stop.

    To reach a point in life where a person belongs to forum only to desire to reach a sub-debasement level is, at best, dishonest and at worst, a clarion call for help in stopping the empty life of belittling others when their own life of worth exists no more. You're finding enjoyment in something that no human should find enjoyment in.

    My reply here would be an overreaction, but I've seen too many threads on RBR (in the past & present) where this is your form of harassment, and you visit it on nearly every thread you participate in. Just as an indication alone, the multiple threads of your incorrect (need we visit your "they're" and "their" stupidity again) grammar corrections are proof of the growing problem.

    Please, step away....there is more to life than this board/forum. Come back later refreshed. Come back with humility. Above all, come back with decency. Stop trying to drag everyone, and their respective thread(s), down.


    Apologies to everyone else. But this behavior from cxwrench has to stop. I do not want to ban him, permanently.
    I'd heartily recommend taking your own advice

  17. #42
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    I spotted all Sunweb, Trek-Segafredo, EF Education First - Drapac presented by Cannondale, Delko and Direct-Energie riders on disc. It seems Paris-Roubaix was the event where some of the teams dipped their toes in the water.

    3 of the top 8 finishers rode discs. Not bad considering only 5 teams were running disc and only 3 at the World Tour level. Some of the most consistent team results were from teams using disc.

    Trek-Segafredo had a few wheel changes and didn't seem to have much issue.

    The pros can take disc or leave them at their leisure, but I don't see how the industry is cramming disc down our throats. According to SRAM, 87% of their road brake OEM sales are disc. Most consumers have already made their choice...it's just the road race sub-category holding out now. As far as the industry cramming disc down the throats of the pro tour...again it seems like they are being quite reasonable. The teams that want to run rim-brakes are definitely doing just that.

    I think my bigger question is why haven't the pros switched to tubeless? I mean Campy just added fuel to the fire, confirming all the tests from BRR, Wheel Energy, etc. According to Campagnolo's whitepaper, the top 5 tubeless tires averaged 5 watts better than the top 5 tubulars at 40km/h. Now consider that the race tubeless setup is probably 300g heavier than the race tubular setup, it should be a no-brainer that teams should switch to tubeless.

    Just think about the math for a second. Giving any adult a 5W bonus at the expense of just 300g in additional bike weight makes them faster downhill, uphill, on flat ground...it doesn't matter.

    Let's use for example a 70kg cyclist with a 7kg bike and 3kg in bidons, helmet, kit, shoes, etc.

    Tubs: 300w/80kg = 3.75w/kg
    Tubeless: 305w/80.3kg = 3.8w/kg

    As we all know, putting out the same or more w/kg at a higher weight is faster no matter what the slope is.

    Potential arguments:

    When tubs flat, they are still somewhat rideable. This is true of tubeless too. The bead lock on tubeless rims keeps the bead in place once seated.

    Clinchers + rim-brakes are dangerous. True to an extent. We pretty much all know someone who suffered catastrophic rim-brake carbon clincher failure.

    ^^ I guess this is the biggest argument for disc in the pro peloton. With the current 6.8kg weight restriction in place, disc + tubeless is quite simply going to be faster because of the rolling resistance advantage.

    Now you might also argue that testing at 40km/h is unrealistic. Well the plot of rolling resistance is pretty linear, so at 20km/h the tubeless advantage is still 2.5w. For an average weight pro cyclist, the weight difference between tubulars and tubeless clinchers would have to be around 1.5kg at 40km/h, 750g at 20km/h, etc. The breakeven point is probably around 8km/h and when's the last time you saw a pro average 8km/h on a climb of any reasonable distance?

    Bring on the disc/tubeless combo. It will make racing better. Just imagine if Sagan or Dillier had flatted in the final 50km of P-R.

    Boy that was a long post, but hopefully it provides it at least makes some anti-disc guys go "hmm..."
    Last edited by ceugene; 04-10-2018 at 12:07 AM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I made these little demonstration pieces when I was visiting Cervelo a few years ago. 4 layers of the same exact material. 1 piece the fibers of all 4 pieces ran the length of the sample, the other one had them alternating at a 45* angle from the centerline. The first sample was very stiff along it's length, but was very torsionally flexible. The second sample was the opposite, flexible on the length but torsionally super still. How do you explain that? Obviously more layers (thickness) should be 'stiffer', right? But fiber orientation was very important according to Damon Rinard. I guess it's all part of the puzzle, yeah?
    Fiber orientation matters aka anisotropic properties which create differential bending but size, shape and thickness matter MUCH more than fiber orientation. Think of fiber orientation as a tuning tool to make a structure more efficient however size, shape and thickness being the essence of any structure including an anisotropic bridge with rebar running through it oriented to provide strength is specific planes of bending. What every engineer is taught in junior level strength of materials class in ungraduate school.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Well we all want to be like the pros--you know, dopers with no life (both pervasive in all pro sports).

    It is not, nor has it ever been, the pros who are demanding hydraulic disc brakes. It has been the marketplace that has driven the demand for these brakes. To be sure, there are a lot of folks who don't want to try hydraulic discs for various reasons--some real --most imagined.

    I ride with several folks who have converted and none have considered it a mistake nor have they considered going back to rim brakes (I ride with folks who like riding in the mountains).

    Eventually, races with high speed twisting descents will be raced on disc brakes and flat stages will not. Superior brakes make no difference where brakes aren't needed or used (like Paris Roubaix). The good news is that bikes will continue to be made with both types of brakes for now. That should help stifle the whining from flat-earth Luddites.
    You were doing pretty well until you mixed your metaphors of flat earth and luddites. You referred the Paris Roubaix as essentially a flat race which it is where disc brakes aren't needed. If you live in a flat place like I do...I ride year around, nobody here that knows anything about racing bicycles rides disc brakes because not only are they unnecessary but unwelcome for their weight, aero deficit, complexity and cost. That said, if I lived in the mountains like you, I would be on a disc brake bike without question. I don't embrace technology for technology sake. That is a mindless position. Instead horses for courses.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    I spotted all Sunweb, Trek-Segafredo, EF Education First - Drapac presented by Cannondale, Delko and Direct-Energie riders on disc. It seems Paris-Roubaix was the event where some of the teams dipped their toes in the water.

    3 of the top 8 finishers rode discs. Not bad considering only 5 teams were running disc and only 3 at the World Tour level. Some of the most consistent team results were from teams using disc.

    Trek-Segafredo had a few wheel changes and didn't seem to have much issue.

    The pros can take disc or leave them at their leisure, but I don't see how the industry is cramming disc down our throats. According to SRAM, 87% of their road brake OEM sales are disc. Most consumers have already made their choice...it's just the road race sub-category holding out now. As far as the industry cramming disc down the throats of the pro tour...again it seems like they are being quite reasonable. The teams that want to run rim-brakes are definitely doing just that.

    I think my bigger question is why haven't the pros switched to tubeless? I mean Campy just added fuel to the fire, confirming all the tests from BRR, Wheel Energy, etc. According to Campagnolo's whitepaper, the top 5 tubeless tires averaged 5 watts better than the top 5 tubulars at 40km/h. Now consider that the race tubeless setup is probably 300g heavier than the race tubular setup, it should be a no-brainer that teams should switch to tubeless.

    Just think about the math for a second. Giving any adult a 5W bonus at the expense of just 300g in additional bike weight makes them faster downhill, uphill, on flat ground...it doesn't matter.

    Let's use for example a 70kg cyclist with a 7kg bike and 3kg in bidons, helmet, kit, shoes, etc.

    Tubs: 300w/80kg = 3.75w/kg
    Tubeless: 305w/80.3kg = 3.8w/kg

    As we all know, putting out the same or more w/kg at a higher weight is faster no matter what the slope is.

    Potential arguments:

    When tubs flat, they are still somewhat rideable. This is true of tubeless too. The bead lock on tubeless rims keeps the bead in place once seated.

    Clinchers + rim-brakes are dangerous. True to an extent. We pretty much all know someone who suffered catastrophic rim-brake carbon clincher failure.

    ^^ I guess this is the biggest argument for disc in the pro peloton. With the current 6.8kg weight restriction in place, disc + tubeless is quite simply going to be faster because of the rolling resistance advantage.

    Now you might also argue that testing at 40km/h is unrealistic. Well the plot of rolling resistance is pretty linear, so at 20km/h the tubeless advantage is still 2.5w. For an average weight pro cyclist, the weight difference between tubulars and tubeless clinchers would have to be around 1.5kg at 40km/h, 750g at 20km/h, etc. The breakeven point is probably around 8km/h and when's the last time you saw a pro average 8km/h on a climb of any reasonable distance?

    Bring on the disc/tubeless combo. It will make racing better. Just imagine if Sagan or Dillier had flatted in the final 50km of P-R.

    Boy that was a long post, but hopefully it provides it at least makes some anti-disc guys go "hmm..."
    In bold above made me laugh. Clueless Joe walks into a bike shop to buy a road bike who not only hasn't made up his mind but doesn't have a mind about the pros and cons of rim versus disc brakes. If the vast majority of bikes on a bike shop floor are disc brake, what options does clueless Joe have? About the same for buying a BSA bike when all bikes on the floor have a Press Fit bottom bracket. Consumers purchase...sometimes begrudgingly, what manufacturers produce. Yes consumers can bend the arc of demand but are easily manipulated. Let's say for sake of argument 50% that ride a road bike live in an environment which would be best served by disc brakes because of change in elevation. Lets take the pros out of it for the time being. And 90% of new road bikes on the shop floor are disc. That means a high percentage will buy a disc brake bike whereby they are wasting their money and would be better served on a rim brake bike. They don't need the braking. I don't or my friends don't as we pace line in the flat environment we live. If we all climbing mountains by contrast we would likely be building the lightest climbing bike with disc brakes but I don't want such a bike where I live.

    You seem to forget about the crux of this thread. Why do bikes like the Roubaix exist? Gimmicky bikes like the Future Shock Roubaix exist to generate profit for a big bike brand like Specialized. Bike companies are in business to make money. That is why they are pushing disc brake bikes and putting them out on the shop floor. To 'up'sell ignorant comsumers. For many this is akin to 4 piston Brembo brakes on a Toyota Prius. Unnecessary. That said, I think its a good thing that disc brake bikes exist for those that live in areas where they can descend with greater safety. Where I live, I don't want them.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    You were doing pretty well until you mixed your metaphors of flat earth and luddites. You referred the Paris Roubaix as essentially a flat race which it is where disc brakes aren't needed. If you live in a flat place like I do...I ride year around, nobody here that knows anything about racing bicycles rides disc brakes because not only are they unnecessary but unwelcome for their weight, aero deficit, complexity and cost. That said, if I lived in the mountains like you, I would be on a disc brake bike without question. I don't embrace technology for technology sake. That is a mindless position. Instead horses for courses.
    What are your thoughts on tubeless clinchers being 5w faster at 40km/h according to sources like Campagnolo/WheelEnergy/etc, the conundrum of rim-brake carbon clinchers have a questionable safety record, and moving to disc-brake tubeless clinchers as the possible solution?

    5w trumps any sort of weight penalty in a flat race. Even assuming a climb at 20km/h, you'd need the disc-brake tubeless clincher bike to be ~750g heavier to nullify the 2.5w gains at that speed.

    So if the goal is to be fast, comfortable and flat resistant, tubeless is king. And if tubeless clinchers are adopted, disc-brakes are the easiest way to make carbon clincher rims safe.
    Last edited by ceugene; 04-10-2018 at 02:08 AM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    I agree with that too. My new Kona superjake has a more traditional 'tubing joint' design unlike the huge-monocoque shell of the specializeds. and yet it is very stiff indeed. (and yes I realize the suerjake is technicall a monocoque construction, just the shape is more reminiscent of a tubing joint)
    A false extrapolation. Has little to do with fiber orientation.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    What are your thoughts on tubeless clinchers being 5w faster at 40km/h according to sources like Campagnolo/WheelEnergy/etc, the conundrum of rim-brake carbon clinchers have a questionable safety record, and moving to disc-brake tubeless clinchers as the possible solution?

    5w trumps any sort of weight penalty in a flat race. Even assuming a climb at 20km/h, you'd need the disc-brake tubeless clincher bike to be ~750g heavier to nullify the 2.5w gains at that speed.

    So if the goal is to be fast, comfortable and flat resistant, tubeless is king. And if tubeless clinchers are adopted, disc-brakes are the easiest way to make carbon clincher rims safe.
    A good question and a thoughtful nuance you pose. Could be a myriad of factors. If your 5w save at 40km/hr is true for example. Flat potential difference is likely the biggest reason. Confidence pros have in tubulars versus clinchers run tubeless based upon less experience.. To me, many including Sagan on carbon wheels and tubulars descending the Alps with no issue on rim brakes, carbon rims melting among high end carbon wheels today is ostensibly a non issue because carbon chemistry aka TsubG of epoxy matrix referred to in the industry as glass transition temperature, is outside the melting zone. This wasn't the case a few years back when this weakness was exposed by racing and amateur performance riding of descending in high temp with a lot of braking. Further development portended mostly a search for more robust material and likely a tweak to increasing web thickness of the rim as a greater heat sink to lower overall melting temperature. Greater web thickness not only helps with temperature distribution but greater strength to resist yielding when material properties are degraded on some level due to heat. Biggest change is likely most in the chemistry of the carbon but heat transfer can be affected by wheel design itself. A notable contrast for example is the carbon chosen in a Boeing 787 versus in a wheelset versus a bicycle frameset. Very different properties at a different price point. Top brand manufacturers like Spesh Roval, Zipp, Enve...a long list, no doubt they have solved this riddle largely for worse case braking which previously was a real issue with lower temperature capable carbon.

    Perhaps others have an opinion on tubs versus tubeless, which is most viable and why. Decision as with disc brakes is an equation of sorts and more than one reason. Here is one such discussion:
    https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/vie...114&t=12978244
    Last edited by 11spd; 04-10-2018 at 05:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    What are your thoughts on tubeless clinchers being 5w faster at 40km/h according to sources like Campagnolo/WheelEnergy/etc, the conundrum of rim-brake carbon clinchers have a questionable safety record, and moving to disc-brake tubeless clinchers as the possible solution?

    5w trumps any sort of weight penalty in a flat race. Even assuming a climb at 20km/h, you'd need the disc-brake tubeless clincher bike to be ~750g heavier to nullify the 2.5w gains at that speed.

    So if the goal is to be fast, comfortable and flat resistant, tubeless is king. And if tubeless clinchers are adopted, disc-brakes are the easiest way to make carbon clincher rims safe.
    Tubeless systems may save 5W but, considering the lack of tire choices, do you know what they are giving up in rolling resistance? I honestly don't know. Are the tubeless tires out there equal to clinchers? I was under the impression that tubeless tire choices are limited compared to clincher and therefore a disadvantage. Tires are king to me. Best upgrade for the money imo and for some reason one of the most overlooked by the average rider. jmo/e

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodys737 View Post
    Tubeless systems may save 5W but, considering the lack of tire choices, do you know what they are giving up in rolling resistance? I honestly don't know. Are the tubeless tires out there equal to clinchers? I was under the impression that tubeless tire choices are limited compared to clincher and therefore a disadvantage. Tires are king to me. Best upgrade for the money imo and for some reason one of the most overlooked by the average rider. jmo/e
    Not sure what you mean as 5W save reported is based upon reduction in rolling resistance. Tubulars have redundant inner tube integrated in the tire which increases bending and therefore rolling resistance and clinchers run without a tube do not have this additive...what can be considered, redundancy. Of course without this redundancy of integrated tube and tire aka tubular, the biggest difference is likely flat resistance...pros and many riders have greater confidence in tubulars versus clinchers run tubeless because the seal of the clincher is all important to maintain pressure. Not so with a tubular. Even with a poor glue job, a tubular can maintain pressure.

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