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  1. #101
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    "Al frames. The Sprint in particular is hydroformed to even include aero cues. No comparison to a Klein or early Al CAAD bikes where it was learned greater stiffness could be derived by large diameter tubing paper thin...Al being the most flexible of all frame materials and the knock on Al being one of the roughest riding which has now been quelled by hydroforming aka differential section modulus. Historically because of the low modulus of elasticity of Al, it had to be made buckboard stiff in vertical compliance to not wind up like a rotory spring out of the saddle or have decent handling due to a flexible front end aka qualities of the Vitus made famous by Sean Kelly:
    Vitus 979"

    This describes early Kleins and Cannondales. This does not describe the 9000 series aluminum Quantum II/Race/Pro bikes at all. That tubing was a revelation in the creation of a lightweight, high performance bike. Klein's ovalizing the down tube in a horizontal manner was the first move by any bicycle manufacturer to increase the lateral rigidity while reducing that in the vertical plane. You seem to dismiss those efforts out of hand, whereas many bikes being produced today have evolved from that concept.

    I recall Alan McCormick, the "wee Irishman" who weighed all of 11 stone, telling me in 1996 that the Quantum Pro had the most comfortable ride of any bike he had ever ridden in his long professional career (I had known him since the early 80's when he would come to Athens, GA for winter training).
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    You have to remember that the purpose of a business is to make money. Our economy is well past the stage where businesses made money by filling customers' needs. If your business is focused solely on the customers' current needs, you'll soon be standing on the unemployment line (OK a bit of hyperbole there).

    In today's business world, successful companies create products that create new customer needs. They don't exploit unserviced/underserviced markets, they create the markets themselves.

    This is why you're seeing so many "fixes" or "improvements" that may be neither on bicycles. Specialized won't survive if they manufacture a simple, (relatively) inexpensive bicycle that works and lasts for 20 years because then you'll buy a bike and ride it for a couple of decades before you're back.


    -----------
    The level of indoctrination disguised as education that comes out of our education system is sad. Your generation should consider class action litigation to get your money and your parents money back.

    A small part of your theory has merit. Manufacturers do continually attempt to build a better mouse trap without any certainty that the market is unhappy with the current model. There was no certainty that the market was unhappy with the Model A. The unhappiness was created by auto manufacturers continually innovating and producing better iterations. That trend continues today. More power and comfort with better fuel economy creates new demand.

    The notion that bike manufacturers are not continually producing better, more user friendly products is nonsense. Clearly, biking lends itself to the vocal followers of Ludditism, but they have always been focused on discouraging folks from pursuing quality of life improvements. Misery loves company.

    Few folks would claim that their current auto is not a step forward of the car they had 25 years ago. The same is true with quality bikes.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I have considered running a tubeless set up on one of my bikes and may buy a tubeless ready wheelset as you describe..designed to be better sealed. Seems like there is a fair amount of upside other than the installation and initial pressurization...can carry a spare tube in the event sealant doesn't mitigate a puncture in terms of air loss, improved rolling resistance and ride compliancy etc.
    May give it a go and thanks again.
    Been experimenting with tubeless on my wife's bike. came with stock DTSwiss tubeless rims, and we put on Hutchinsons. So far it has been OK, but for two things.

    One, the front wheel keeps leaking down between rides. But could be the valves. I find on MTB, the tubeless is fantastic, but the valves eventually get mucked up and need to replace the cores periodically.

    Two. Those tires on on there real hard! I mean I went to pry the tire off on the bench to check something and gave up for fear of damaging the tire bead. I think it could be a real chore to attempt on the side of the road. Luckily no flats for her in 5 months since we installed the tubeless.

    she likes the ride quality of the tubeless 28mm, but then any good tire like a GP40002S feels great at 28mm. And it is on her Roubaix with all the suspension stuff. so that is triple the vibration damping, lol, or it is confounding variables. I've never ridden that bike so can't give opinion.

    The tightness of the tires on the rim turns me off, unlike MTB which are easier to move around and get off. I have a set of Schwalbe tubeless tires to retrofit to my rims, but I think it might not be worth the hassle. Mavic has their own new proprietary tubeless system which is supposedly a more precision fit that is easier to get one and off. But then You're stuck with Mavi's awful freehubs, lol.

    Instead I've been riding my cross bike with 28mm gp4002S and love the ride this winter.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  4. #104
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    UST was jointly developed by Mavic and Hutchinson.

    Mavic UST tires are made by Hutchinson. Hutchinson Fusion 5s go on all my rims with ease, though maybe the older models like the Intensive and Sector are a bit tighter.

    Your tire absolutely should not be going flat over night. It’s probably a leak under the tape and not your valves.

    Never inflate your tires with the valves at 6 o’clock and they shouldn’t get clogged. Anywhere between 8 o’clock and 4 o’clock should be fine.

    Orange Seal is leaps and bounds better than any other sealant if you aren’t using that already.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    "Al frames. The Sprint in particular is hydroformed to even include aero cues. No comparison to a Klein or early Al CAAD bikes where it was learned greater stiffness could be derived by large diameter tubing paper thin...Al being the most flexible of all frame materials and the knock on Al being one of the roughest riding which has now been quelled by hydroforming aka differential section modulus. Historically because of the low modulus of elasticity of Al, it had to be made buckboard stiff in vertical compliance to not wind up like a rotory spring out of the saddle or have decent handling due to a flexible front end aka qualities of the Vitus made famous by Sean Kelly:
    Vitus 979"

    This describes early Kleins and Cannondales. This does not describe the 9000 series aluminum Quantum II/Race/Pro bikes at all. That tubing was a revelation in the creation of a lightweight, high performance bike. Klein's ovalizing the down tube in a horizontal manner was the first move by any bicycle manufacturer to increase the lateral rigidity while reducing that in the vertical plane. You seem to dismiss those efforts out of hand, whereas many bikes being produced today have evolved from that concept.

    I recall Alan McCormick, the "wee Irishman" who weighed all of 11 stone, telling me in 1996 that the Quantum Pro had the most comfortable ride of any bike he had ever ridden in his long professional career (I had known him since the early 80's when he would come to Athens, GA for winter training).
    In bold...no I don't dismiss this point as a stepping stone to greater enlightment when anybody who has gone to engineering school that takes a hand at designing a bike knows that section modulus affects propensity of a frame member to bend. Klein's effort just isn't close to today's standard of hydroforming where differential section area is more profound. Greater vertical compliance and greater lateral stiffness.

    And where is Klein today on the stage of Aluminum bikes? Not even mentioned. So they sure didn't take this early adaptation and further develop it to compete with the likes of Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale and a pleathora of large bike companies with deep R&D who have created some truly wonderful Aluminum bikes. You can deny it but the goal post has moved considerably from Klein's heyday. Carbon fiber bicycles have evolved in the last 10 years quite a bit as well in terms of overall performance...including what Specialized did with road load acquisition data aka strain gaged and rider tested frames of all sizes. FEA didn't give them this data by computer analysis. Instead they measured strain aka elastic elongation of frame members while riding different size Tarmacs with different rider sizes in an effort to create uniform performing framesets throughout their size range.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    Been experimenting with tubeless on my wife's bike. came with stock DTSwiss tubeless rims, and we put on Hutchinsons. So far it has been OK, but for two things.

    One, the front wheel keeps leaking down between rides. But could be the valves. I find on MTB, the tubeless is fantastic, but the valves eventually get mucked up and need to replace the cores periodically.

    Two. Those tires on on there real hard! I mean I went to pry the tire off on the bench to check something and gave up for fear of damaging the tire bead. I think it could be a real chore to attempt on the side of the road. Luckily no flats for her in 5 months since we installed the tubeless.

    she likes the ride quality of the tubeless 28mm, but then any good tire like a GP40002S feels great at 28mm. And it is on her Roubaix with all the suspension stuff. so that is triple the vibration damping, lol, or it is confounding variables. I've never ridden that bike so can't give opinion.

    The tightness of the tires on the rim turns me off, unlike MTB which are easier to move around and get off. I have a set of Schwalbe tubeless tires to retrofit to my rims, but I think it might not be worth the hassle. Mavic has their own new proprietary tubeless system which is supposedly a more precision fit that is easier to get one and off. But then You're stuck with Mavi's awful freehubs, lol.

    Instead I've been riding my cross bike with 28mm gp4002S and love the ride this winter.
    I have been stuck in clincher and tube land for some the reasons identified. I have toyed with going tubeless...buying a tubeless ready wheelset and giving it a go. But haven't yet.

    What kind of tubes do you run on your clincher and tube set ups? Std butyl, lightweight butyl, or latex?

    Thanks for your comments.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    Not for nothing, but based on what I've read the bikes the pros ride and the bikes we can buy have nothing in common save for the name. They're all custom made for each rider so why wouldn't they be very different from stock store models?
    What you say is true and btw, portends to many sports. Pros play what isn't available to the public.

    Why does it matter? Because if riding a frankenbike like Sagan did to win the Roubaix which is nothing like a Roubaix one can buy at a bike shop, any potential buyer may not only question the veracity of the bike sold at the bike shop if a pro wants one spec'ed completely different...I do. I prefer Sagan's race bike for example. Also, a prospective owner can't really extrapolate any performance benefit from watching a pro win on a bike radically different from one available to the public.

    Sagan's Roubaix for example was much lighter than any production Roubaix, had completely different geometry and rim brakes that aren't available on a production Roubaix. The bike he was on is more 5 year old Tarmac than any Roubaix. We don't even know if the Future Shock stroked. Because he had a lock out which also isn't available on a production Roubaix, we don't know if he rode the whole race with the shock locked out.

    Lastly, it really draws into question the notion of any suspension on bicycle including the Cobl Gobl seatpost no pro rides in the Paris Roubaix race over the last few years that post has been available. I remember watching video of Boonen testing it. He never rode it in the Roubaix classics race as the engineer explained the benefit of the rider being suspended from the vertical displacement of the bike. Didn't like it. I don't know a single pro who has ridden that post over the grueling cobbles including Sagan. Pro's don't want some level of compliancy? No, its more than that. Pros want control and that post doesn't give them the control they need to lay the power down.

    Last year the Roubaix race was won on a Scott Foil of all bikes. An 'aero' bike generally regarded as akin to riding a buckboard over rough road surfaces. Takeaway? Suspension is best derived in the tires and not the frame on a road bike that places emphasis on speed. I always preferred a rigid fork, hardtail mtb if ripping single track as well as long as tires and pressure were suitable and the track wasn't too rooted up.
    What did Sagan win this year's race on? A bike more akin to a Scott Foil than a modern Roubaix it was named.

    Scott Foil, not known for its cobble munching prowess:
    https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/n...-paris-roubaix
    Last edited by 11spd; 6 Days Ago at 03:16 AM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I have considered running a tubeless set up on one of my bikes and may buy a tubeless ready wheelset as you describe..designed to be better sealed. Seems like there is a fair amount of upside other than the installation and initial pressurization...can carry a spare tube in the event sealant doesn't mitigate a puncture in terms of air loss, improved rolling resistance and ride compliancy etc.
    May give it a go and thanks again.
    There are some downsides to be aware of.
    Tires can be tough to get on. Especially when brand new. Invest $12 in a tire jack. You won't regret it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EZRSz1DlHg

    Getting the tire to seat and seal can be tricky. New tires seat and seal pretty good. Used ones can be really tough once they're stretched a little and pliable. It's impossible with a regular pump. A compressor is helpful. Take out the valve core. You want to dump as much air as fast as possible into the tire.
    If you don't have a compressor, you could use a portable air tank and pump it up with a bike pump.
    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Iron-Hor...T-05/205509142
    These are some interesting ideas for a diy air tank.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNWiLQKxOs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtmatxJG_zg

    Valve cores get gunked up with sealant and eventually won't seal. Take them out once in a while to clean them off. Have spares on hand.
    Before putting air in your tire, set the valve stem at 12:00 and let it sit a moment so all the sealant drips away from the stem.

    Sealant dries up in your tire. Once in a while you might want to pull off the tires and peel out the dried up sealant. If you let the bike sit for a while, the sealant will dry up in a blob at once spot and unbalance the wheel.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

  9. #109
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    Good reply. BTW, love the give and take on tubeless vs tubed. FWIW, I tried tubeless, and they're a pain in the ass. Truly, to me, a solution looking for a problem. Tubed tires are just so damned easy.

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