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  1. #26
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    Talking

    Do you have the same wear marks on both sides of the saddle? If so, among other things it tells me you are likely on a saddle too narrow for your ischials and so slide forward onto the soft perineal tissues. Also your saddle is too high and perhaps too far back....... If you really pedaled knees in the tip of the saddle would be scuffed.

  2. #27
    eminence grease
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    The rule is "Do not attempt to learn anything by watching a bunch of stickmen ride their bikes up mountains for pay." What works for them on an individual basis has nothing to do with you.

    If you pay close attention and act accordingly you might find yourself riding twisted half off the bike like Francisco Mancebo.
    You'd be better off with a netbook, they do everything better.

    My travel blog: http://tbaroundtheworld.blogspot.com

  3. #28
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    Very informative replies; I'm sure my patellar tendinitis is has something to do with my knees not consistently being "in."
    You could fill a warehouse with what I don't know about cycling.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by terry b View Post
    The rule is "Do not attempt to learn anything by watching a bunch of stickmen ride their bikes up mountains for pay." What works for them on an individual basis has nothing to do with you.

    If you pay close attention and act accordingly you might find yourself riding twisted half off the bike like Francisco Mancebo.
    Quite right. You would notice also Contador cocking his head to one side when he is under load. This is most likely a neural pathology - likely visual.

    Patellar tendonitis is not normally a knees-in issue. Mostly it is excessive gear load or bad saddle position.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclequip View Post

    Patellar tendonitis is not normally a knees-in issue. Mostly it is excessive gear load or bad saddle position.
    I am still learning not to try to push gears when I should shift...for some reason, I am still having occasional silly "don't be a wimp and shift down" thoughts when I approach a grade.
    You could fill a warehouse with what I don't know about cycling.

  6. #31
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    When I started riding seriously, I had read somewhere or heard that one should pedal with knees close to the top tube. I did this for about six months or so. Then, when I went to college, I hooked up with the cycling team. There was one guy on the team that just had his sh!t together. That is, he was so smooth on the bike. I decided to copy his pedaling style, which was knees straight. I have ridden like that for more than 20 years now.

    I personally am no longer interested in going as fast as possible. I hate the knees in look and that alone is reason for me not to do it. I also think that many great cyclists ride knees straight, not in. Lemond, Fignon, etc.

  7. #32
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    Being a college student, I see lots of people commuting on bikes - and a lot of them ride with their knees way out. It just looks funny to me. And I may be wrong, but it seems like riding that way would wear on your knees the wrong way, causing problems down the road.

  8. #33
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    I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.

    Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.

    That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by smankow View Post
    I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.

    Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.

    That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.
    if this habit doesn't cause pain or similar problems related to not having an appropriate fit/lining up scenario, it may stand to reason that that rider is physiologically atypical from the general population.

    likewise, if someone can ride super fast for really long for 21 near-consecutive days, that rider may be considered atypical.

    So suggesting people should fit themselves to a bike like andy schleck or any of the other pros who've been discussed in this thread as having non-traditional placements on their bikes, isn't sensible for anyone who doesn't fit on a bike exactly like said pro. If andy schleck rode with the same reaches, angles, etc, relative to his body measurements, that I do, relative to mine, it would probably not work well for him.
    K$

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by smankow View Post
    I have to disagree that this is simply the result of a bad fit. You can't tell me that some of the top-line pro riders, such as Andy Schleck, have a bad fit.

    Yes, you can adjust your leg position through the fitting process, but I doubt that it can be completely accomplished. If someone has a "habit" of riding bow-legged, the knees in might just be an over exaggerated example to break that habit and gain muscle memory.

    That said, I am also not a fan of the tight knees-in style. I am one that is working to get the legs into a more effient riding position.
    No-one has suggested andy Schleck has a bad fit. Read my earlier post where I explain his particular narrow knee style comes from his valgus knee orientation. In fact I know he has been properly fitted when still at Saxo by Andy Pruitt and Scott Holz. You don't get better fitters than them.
    The point is that a good fitter can adjust symmetry based on the rider's physiology - precisely to achieve the best neutral fit that avoids the risk of overuse or repetitive-stress injury.

    And you would be shocked to see how many top pro riders have massively deficient bike fits. They adapt stabilizers through huge hours in the saddle but those falling outside the parameters suffer ongoing injury - mainly knees BTW - and become cannon-fodder for team management who use them till they are finished knowing there are hundreds of hungry wannabes waiting in the sidelines. Believe me the good ones get good fits.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclequip View Post
    The asymmetry you describe can be from a more active arch on one foot or it can be from a leg-length discrepancy (either skeletal or functional). I'd suggest getting assessed to find the cause before jumping in with arch support.
    However if getting assessed is not an option, get support on BOTH feet. Also don't get too hung up on power discrepancies between legs - this typically changes between legs over time and with effort as the body recruits different muscle fibres in response to load demand.

    Cyclequip,
    I've enjoyed reading your posts. I have been having an issue with medial knee pain on my right knee, and I am a CAT2 cyclists that has been riding for about 4 years (28 years old). This is my first injury EVER and it creeped up about 3 weeks ago and has been driving me nuts. I wanted to run what I have done thus far by you if you would give me feedback I would much appreciate it.

    Like I said, right medial knee pain. I have had professional fits, and I consider my position to be pretty good. Flexibility....well working on that. I noticed that my right knee does in fact collapse towards the top tube where as my left knee tracks perfectly in line with ankle/hip. I have also noticed that my right foot wants to go toe out just ever so slightly where as my left foot tracks straight (I use speedplays). I went to see a foot doc yesterday who is a cyclist and a very good physician, figuring wedging may be in action. He measured and looked at my feet and said I am not one of the 86% of the population that has valgus (pardon me if I am badgering terms here). Actually, he said I have very nice high arches etc etc. So no wedging is in order (we did try it and video taped to see what it would do anyways and no change). My right hip ROM is limited (pincer) so another theory was that at the top of my pedal stroke my leg comes out slightly to allow clearance for the hip, and then falls back in and overcompensates on the downstroke. OK..fair enough... We ended up raising my saddle height about 1 cm and that helped the knee tracking immensly, and also moved my foot a little closer to the BB because I have narrow hips and this helped get my foot under my knee. I was able to ride the trainer today for 1.5 hours with little or no pain after, so I think the changes we made have been helpful but I am still letting the cortisone shot i got in my knee a week ago do its job, especially seeing how tendon flare up is a slow healing process. Some questions I am still having...
    1.) in terms of pedal float, is it best to allow my foot to go where it wants or lock it down? I personally feel better when I allow my foot to float, and after the saddle raise my foot doesn't want to go toe out nearly as much..
    2.) You mentioned some muscle groups that could contribute to this.. I do a lot of weight training in the offseason, do you think it is possible that the weight training I have been doing is contributing to this? Maybe I am over building a specific muscle? Reason I think this is because it is odd for this injury to occur in winter when I ride less, although I was riding a pretty aggressive century when the injury creeped up on me. If you think this is possible, what muscle groups should I focus on building, or not building to avoid this knee collapsing?

    Overall, the lateral motion in my right leg is pretty minimal even before the changes we made. This could very well be due to just high base mileage in cold weather, wearing pants that restrict knee cap movement etc. I hope this is the case, but of course always want to try and be proactive to avoid this injury in the season. That would kill me! I am also stretching a lot more now as I think tight hamstrings etc are never a good thing for the knees. I appreciate any insight you have to offer!

  12. #37
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    Bow-legged, or genu varum, is when you have outward bowing of the legs, so that the knees are further apart than the ankles when standing. This is most common in children, but is also present in adults. The types of injuries that could occur from this are lateral collateral ligament (LCL) sprains and increased compression on the medial structures.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
    Watching riders in the Tour and now the U.S.Pro Championships in Colorado....many have their knees angled in noticeably when pedaling, e.g., Andy Schleck.

    Is there any "cycling tip" or "rule" that's commonly known whereby you are supposed to keep your knees in toward the top tube?
    Yes, and for the same reasons you try to keep your elbows in and your head low. Don't want everything jutting out into the wind for no reason other than to slow you down. There are, of course, some notable exceptions, but the more someone rides, the more I find they'll knee in (save for some biomechanical issue).

  14. #39
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    I don't think I could ride a "modern" carbon fibre bike as the tubes are just too fat.
    My knees brush/hit the top tube of my 2011 era alloy bikes regularly.

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