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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Seems like a versitile design to me since it is just a big smooth hole in the frame. Looks like theyíve used a variety of different BBs within that same hole in the frame so I donít think anyone can claim there was an original intent. Now theyíre just using the best design BB theyíve found yet to put in it.

    Iím definitely not the only one whoís had issues with post mount calipers twisting but I have no doubt youíre right something wasnít setup correctly. Not concerned about it now as my direct mount calipers are much better in braking performance and they canít twist. My wife loves her disc brakes and so do I when I take her bike for a spin.
    Design, ergo the world of R&D could be a four letter word ;) or more appropriately coined 'trade off'. No design is perfect. I share your appreciation for dual post aka direct mount brakes. I like them on whole for a variety of reasons. But, Joe six pack will struggle more with their set up because loss of degree of freedom of the single post pivot which places greater emphasis on adjusting the dual pivot mechanism. Now a trained mechanic won't have an issue with this after a learning curve, but not as intuitive to set up compared to single post. In design, no free lunch.

    A parallel of this concept for example is the initial Venge VIAS redesign with rim brakes which Specialized discontinued largely due to poor reviews. These were pretty high tech aero integrated rim brakes. Some believe...I believe its partly true...that the Venge VIAS rim brake system isn't flawed. The engineers that created them believed in them. The flaw in the design is the complexity of setting the brakes up properly which eludes the 'average' bike shop mechanic and why the bike and brake system was panned.

    There is a concept in design referred to as robustness which encompasses many domains. Robustness to manufacturing tolerance variation for example but moreover to set up. If a system is too hard to adjust or set up reliably, then its performance will suffer in the field. This btw has applicability to press fit BB's as well.
    Hope this make sense.
    Last edited by 11spd; 1 Week Ago at 02:06 PM.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    yes, and with disc covers, and without which the overall impact to aerodynamics would be worse. I don't know man, but I don't think I'd want starting to put covers and hoods on my daily road bikes. Might as well ride a bent with a full on bubble, no?

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Seems like Specialized has been using the BB design in Saganís bike since 2017 in all of their Venge models. Maybe they left it smooth now with BB30 sizing and Specialized just calls all of them OSBB?
    The saga of Specialized when it comes to BB's isn't pretty. More like a disaster. For several years Specialized sold what they coined carbon OSBB which was effectively a proprietary version of PF30...only 61mm wide. Owners of $8-10K Sworks race bikes struggled mightily with this design before after about 5 years of screwing people, a couple of years ago Specialized converted all their flagship bikes to BB30 which they call OSBB to retain their exclusivity when they are anything but. FWIW BB30 is leaps and bounds more reliable than PF30 so Specialized finally did the right thing about killing this design which they released for 'marketing advantage only' because industry insiders knew it was crap and 'cheaper for Specialized to manufacture' AND they could advertise at a lower weight. Truthfully if you really understand design and witnessed the desperation of Specialized to tame their version of PF30, the people at that company that knowingly did this to the unsuspecting bike riding public, they should be punished on some level. Grievous.

    BB30 aka current design is better. It can be successfully tamed with Locitite and proper set up...or a sleeve like Peter's race team uses. Truthfully, Praxis came into being largely due to Specialized's f-up.
    Last edited by 11spd; 1 Week Ago at 01:03 PM.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    BB30 aka current design is better. It can be successfully tamed with Locitite and proper set up...or a sleeve like Peter's race team uses. Truthfully, Praxis came into being largely due to Specialized's f-up.
    One of the reason's I'll never buy a Specialized is their push to always have some proprietary design. In this case Fuji seemed to adopt it with the PF30 but Wheels Manufacturing had the perfect replacement which I researched before I bought the bike.

    FWIW my Fuji Transonic 2.3 is a PF30 and the Praxis PF30 that I took out of it was a piece of sh!t in my opinion. Not the bearings but the design. https://praxiscycles.com/bottom-brackets/conversion-bb/ Even with tons of copper anti-seize on the threads from the factory install it was basically seized in place. I needed to use a seat post for extra leverage on my 3/8 drive breaker bar to break the threaded end loose. Which was more than enough torque to twist the metal collar that goes through the frame. Maybe it was over tightened from the factory but there is supposed to be zero torque on them and only tightened until touching the frame. My new BB is the same design as the Ceramic Speed one I linked earlier and I don't think it would matter whether it uses the PF30 or BB30 size shell in the frame. Piece of cake to install, no thread lock needed and creaking should never be a problem.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    The great company Pinarello went back to BSA on their top of the line bikes. Kudos to them. Others should follow but likely won't anytime soon.
    this site should keep an inventory of major companies and model which still offer BSA. yeah kudos to Pinarello
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    One of the reason's I'll never buy a Specialized is their push to always have some proprietary design. In this case Fuji seemed to adopt it with the PF30 but Wheels Manufacturing had the perfect replacement which I researched before I bought the bike.

    FWIW my Fuji Transonic 2.3 is a PF30 and the Praxis PF30 that I took out of it was a piece of sh!t in my opinion. Not the bearings but the design. https://praxiscycles.com/bottom-brackets/conversion-bb/ Even with tons of copper anti-seize on the threads from the factory install it was basically seized in place. I needed to use a seat post for extra leverage on my 3/8 drive breaker bar to break the threaded end loose. Which was more than enough torque to twist the metal collar that goes through the frame. Maybe it was over tightened from the factory but there is supposed to be zero torque on them and only tightened until touching the frame. My new BB is the same design as the Ceramic Speed one I linked earlier and I don't think it would matter whether it uses the PF30 or BB30 size shell in the frame. Piece of cake to install, no thread lock needed and creaking should never be a problem.
    Well done Dave. Praxis for PF30 is generally favorably reviewed in the industry. Sounds like some level of abuse installing it as you suspect.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    FYI- rim brakes are just REALLY BIG mechanic disc brakes. Now I bet you all feel silly. . . .
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Coolhand again.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Again, that's an issue with the mechanic. Noises on my bike drive me crazy, I have 12k miles on my disc bike and the only time I get any rub noise is after a hard braking event it will happen for about 15s until the brakes cool, and even then it depends on which wheels I am using. I've also built maybe a dozen disc brake bikes and you can make it so they are quiet
    Additionally, rim brakes are not immune to rub either, I rode them for 25 years and have experienced it plenty, in fact on my previous bike I had to carry around a brake centering wrench because the Sram Red caliper would frequently go out of whack and rub the wheel (especially annoying on carbon wheels)
    Like I said before:

    World champion in the world's biggest race on supposedly the world's best equipment. WITH HIS OWN MECHANIC.

    Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalbiker View Post
    Like I said before:

    World champion in the world's biggest race on supposedly the world's best equipment. WITH HIS OWN MECHANIC.

    Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro.

    I don't have to tell myself anything, I know, and I am telling you, bro.
    You don't know what the situation is with the bike, as noted they were getting an early first look at it and he was one of the first to even see the bike, it's possible Sagans mechanic may not have done the final go through or someone else built it and his mech hasn't even touched it yet.
    And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.

    .

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    ok boys, this is just in, Peter Sagan's Venge Disc bike for TdF. Take a look.



    I shall clue you in to the fun part. Go to the 6:44 mark and watch the guy spin the rear wheel. Notice anything? Disc pads rubbing sound. Yep, that pinging sound, disc rub. Fun.
    So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).

    I swap between wheel sets and don't have to make any adjustments, and that is with different hubs (DT Swiss and Giant hubs) and rotors. It's WAY easier than when I had to swap rim brake wheels which required changing all the pads (CF v Al) and making adjustments for the different wheel widths, now that was a total PITA.
    And they make shims for your rotors so you don't have to make such adjustments if your hubs are different.



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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.

    .
    It was definitely disc brake rub. The DT Swiss star ratchet doesn't make any sounds that even remotely resemble it. To be honest though I very much doubt the amount of brake rub we hear in the video is worth even half a watt of power. The friction just isn't high enough between two very hard surfaces until the brakes are actually applied. It could mess with someones head just hearing that during a stage though.

    When I had two wheel sets there was no issue with brake rub when swapping them out. Manufactures might just need to put more attention into machining their hubs but I see discs being a bigger issue. There are slight variances between most discs so even if all of the hubs are absolutely identical there could still be brake rub in a quick wheel swap during a race.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    I swap between wheel sets and don't have to make any adjustments, and that is with different hubs (DT Swiss and Giant hubs) and rotors. It's WAY easier than when I had to swap rim brake wheels which required changing all the pads (CF v Al) and making adjustments for the different wheel widths, now that was a total PITA.
    And they make shims for your rotors so you don't have to make such adjustments if your hubs are different.


    I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I canít. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I canít see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or thereís a warp and I canít detect it and fix to a point where Iím not possibly causing further issues. Itís not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I donít use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    So so fun. As someone who swaps disced wheelsets on my road/gravel bike (3T Exploro...one set 650b/47mm for mixed surface, one set 700c/26mm for pure road) I can attest to what a PitA it is. Same exact hubs, same exact rotors. Should work like a charm. Nope. Always requires a brake adjustment. And to make matters worse, Shimano with their flat mount push is forcing framemakers to offer flat mount frames, which at least for me make adjustment even more difficult because of mounting bolt positions (underneath chainstay on rear brake).
    you baller you, that 3T Exploro has always been on my mind ever since it came out for the nice hard pack trails we have around here.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I canít. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I canít see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or thereís a warp and I canít detect it and fix to a point where Iím not possibly causing further issues. Itís not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I donít use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?
    Next time you swap wheels use the same rotors and see what happens. If it still rubs it's probably the hub. If not the disc is slightly off which is very common. You can use Park Tool's truing tool to make the rotor match the rest of them. Or just true it to work with that specific wheel set.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    you baller you, that 3T Exploro has always been on my mind ever since it came out for the nice hard pack trails we have around here.
    Love it. Rapidly becoming my go to ride. 80% on the 650b/47mm setup. Not to derail thread but...


  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Next time you swap wheels use the same rotors and see what happens. If it still rubs it's probably the hub. If not the disc is slightly off which is very common. You can use Park Tool's truing tool to make the rotor match the rest of them. Or just true it to work with that specific wheel set.
    Will do. Given that I have centerloc rotors, it was probably dumb overkill to have redundant rotors rather than just swap.

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    It was definitely disc brake rub. The DT Swiss star ratchet doesn't make any sounds that even remotely resemble it. To be honest though I very much doubt the amount of brake rub we hear in the video is worth even half a watt of power. The friction just isn't high enough between two very hard surfaces until the brakes are actually applied. It could mess with someones head just hearing that during a stage though.

    When I had two wheel sets there was no issue with brake rub when swapping them out. Manufactures might just need to put more attention into machining their hubs but I see discs being a bigger issue. There are slight variances between most discs so even if all of the hubs are absolutely identical there could still be brake rub in a quick wheel swap during a race.

    My DT Swiss hubs do sound like that, they make an uneven pulsing whir. in fact I once had another rider roll up next to me and try and go off on a rant about disc brakes thinking mine were rubbing, and then I started pedaling and the noise went away... I've even mistaken the noise as brake rub

    That said, I can't say for sure that is what it is in the video, but my it was first impression and then I watched the rest of the video and he confirmed it was a DT Swiss free hub



    .

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    I need your setup! What brakes do you use out of curiosity? On my mtb I can swap without issue...Shimano XTR 9000. But on this flat mount 3T frame with SRAM Force brakes, centerloc IceTecs, I canít. Weird. Maybe one rotor is slightly tweaked, but the whole setup is just a month old and I canít see any warp. Maybe just rotor manufacturing variance? The adjustment is usually just on the rear and the only thing I can think is uneven use between sets, so tiny differences in wear on the rotors may result in minor rub? Or thereís a warp and I canít detect it and fix to a point where Iím not possibly causing further issues. Itís not major, not a full rub, just a twang, but I hate noise. The adjustment is always minor, but still needs to be made. Front wheel swap is more trouble free, maybe because I donít use the front brakes as much as rear. Thoughts?

    I have Shimano RS805 flat mount calipers and use Dura-Ace rotors on one set of wheels and RT-81/99 on the other. Now it seems I just got lucky that they swap so easily, but they do make shims to get the alignment right, so it should be fixable.
    You can also try folding a business card over the rotor and insert it into the caliper to help push the pistons out a bit and give you some more pad clearance. Its also a little harder to get the clearance when the pads are new



    .

  20. #195
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    Love that biz card hack!

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    I don't have to tell myself anything, I know, and I am telling you, bro.
    You don't know what the situation is with the bike, as noted they were getting an early first look at it and he was one of the first to even see the bike, it's possible Sagans mechanic may not have done the final go through or someone else built it and his mech hasn't even touched it yet.
    And I am still not convinced that is disc rub you're hearing, it sounds like the DT Swiss ratchet freewheel, mine sounds just like that.

    .
    Its not freehub rub. Its disc pad rub. But you are correct, that it may not be status of the bike before it entered a big race. Hope not.

  22. #197
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    I think all of Quickstep were on rim tarmacs today. Sagan and at least one other Bora guy still on the venge.

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    I have Shimano RS805 flat mount calipers and use Dura-Ace rotors on one set of wheels and RT-81/99 on the other. Now it seems I just got lucky that they swap so easily, but they do make shims to get the alignment right, so it should be fixable.
    You can also try folding a business card over the rotor and insert it into the caliper to help push the pistons out a bit and give you some more pad clearance. Its also a little harder to get the clearance when the pads are new
    .
    Point is...I have built my share of both hydraulic disc bikes and rim brake...latter much more over 40 years of owning countless roadbikes. Pad rub is more of an issue on disc bikes than rim brake. There is NO controversy on this other than from somebody who doesn't know any better. Not saying disc brake bikes are unridableÖ.lol. The credit card technique is a pretty good one and helps. I posted the video where the disc brake expert shows his tip to push pistons in by yanking on the rotor local to the rub.

    For many of us, certainly not for all that own disc brake bikes...rim brake sets ups are less fiddly. To me, this is no debate and not even close. Others of course who defend disc brake design, they believe disc pad rub to be a non issue. It is probably the no.1 issue of why there are more rim brake bikes in the pro peloton however...wheel changes without enough time to vet any pad rub issue like we hear on Sagan's race bike in the video after a wheel change with slightly different tolerances.. An amateur rider who doesn't race however however doesn't have this constraint. All the time in the world to fiddle with his disc brakes at home to set them up so they don't rub...at least for a while until they do. ;)
    Last edited by 11spd; 1 Week Ago at 09:39 AM.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by taodemon View Post
    I think all of Quickstep were on rim tarmacs today. Sagan and at least one other Bora guy still on the venge.
    Hi Tao,
    Thanks for the observation. I was more riveted by the congressional hearing today and was toggling between that and the race.
    I admit some further surprise. I expected Sagan to be on this rim brake Tarmac for the last two climbing states but no. Maybe we will see him roll it out in the more climbing specific stages...or in the cobble stage coming up..or his rim brake Roubaix. Because cobbles are 'only' for 23km, he might just gut it out on his Tarmac. We will see. Don't think we will see the Venge disc on the cobbled stage.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Point is...I have built my share of both hydraulic disc bikes and rim brake...latter much more over 40 years of owning countless roadbikes. Pad rub is more of an issue on disc bikes than rim brake. There is NO controversy on this other than from somebody who doesn't know any better. Not saying disc brake bikes are unridableÖ.lol. The credit card technique is a pretty good one and helps. I posted the video where the disc brake expert shows his tip to push pistons in by yanking on the rotor local to the rub.

    For many of us, certainly not for all that own disc brake bikes...rim brake sets ups are less fiddly. To me, this is no debate and not even close. Others of course who defend disc brake design, they believe disc pad rub to be a non issue. It is probably the no.1 issue of why there are more rim brake bikes in the pro peloton however...wheel changes without enough time to vet and pad rub issue like we hear in Sagan's race bike in the video.

    40 years now? Before it was 30

    I never said it is not an issue, I said it is fixable just like it is fixable on rim brakes which makes it not a deal killer as some of the disc naysayers would like people to believe.
    And as I noted, brake rub is an issue on rim brakes too, not just from the caliper moving but from the rim moving. I hear brake rub all the time when folks get out of the saddle and have had several people recently bringing their bikes in to the shop complaining about it. Sure you can adjust the spread of the caliper, but that degrades the throw and the brake performance
    And you're not the only one with experience here





    .

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