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  1. #51
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    I'd rather fall on my face at 30mph, than waste 3 seconds putting my front wheel on. And I only change it 12 times a year.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    As someone who has used QRs forever - and no through-axles on any of my bikes - I find the lawyer tabs (or Ralph Nader dropouts as I call them) to be a pain in the butt. Do I grind them off? No, but I do wish they weren't there.

    BTW: I never lost a skewer nut in the old days before lawyer tabs. It has happened a couple of times since then (so I keep an extra in my car's bike tool kit nowadays).
    How the hell do you lose a skewer nut?? 5 revolutions counterclockwise, boom, it's out! It takes more turns than that to lose the skewer nut.

    There are much, much worse pain in the arse designs in the name of safety than lawyer tabs on QRs. Like those stupid "safety valves" on gas cans. I have spilled more gas with those than with cans that didn't have them. So much for safety. Lawyer tabs pale in comparison.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    BTW: I never lost a skewer nut in the old days before lawyer tabs. It has happened a couple of times since then (so I keep an extra in my car's bike tool kit nowadays).
    I'm confused. What is it about lawyer tabs that requires you to remove the nut?
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah2000 View Post
    Fair point.

    At the same time, my MTB with thru axles was bought from a shop. The techs there couldn't figure out how the front thru axle worked, or how to tension it properly (this was a pretty big Trek store). After I test rode the bike, I noted that the front rotor rubbed under power. They put it in the stand, looked it over, said it'd go away as it broke in, and that it was normal behavior. Really? That's the answer? This was after they explained the incredible advancements in stiffness from Boost and thru axles. Sure thing guys. Or, you know, the goofy Fox tension wheel needed to be adjusted and the caliper wasn't aligned correctly.

    So, my point is that people are going to screw up thru-axles too. There are probably more ways to do that than there are with a QR. I wonder how many people have cross-threaded their frame or fork.
    There is this one thru axle which comes with the newer Suntour forks which is confusing and clunky. It does not thread in, it relies wholly on the cam mechanism, but features a safety which totally prevent the axle coming out.
    Came on my Spec Fuse comp MTB. I have figured it out, but still a pita. Maybe you have the same one which confused your bike shop?

    my wife's rear Maxle (TA with a cam lock) on her Spec Rhyme mtb has come loose approx every 4th ride. One time it unlocked AND unthreaded all the way out of the threads as we discovered half way through a ride! That could have damaged the end of the threads, but it didn't. Now she knows to check it before every ride.

    Difficult to cross thread the thru axle because it is always aligned by the opposing hole. That pretty much guarantees it will never be cross threaded.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I'd rather fall on my face at 30mph, than waste 3 seconds putting my front wheel on. And I only change it 12 times a year.
    Just remove the QR completely. Problem solved!

    None of my older steel bikes have tabs, so they do sort of annoy me in a minor sort of way

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I just timed myself taking off a front wheel. 3 seconds. 3 is not a great deal more than 5.
    ...unless thou are employing the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    There is this one thru axle which comes with the newer Suntour forks which is confusing and clunky. It does not thread in, it relies wholly on the cam mechanism, but features a safety which totally prevent the axle coming out.
    Came on my Spec Fuse comp MTB. I have figured it out, but still a pita. Maybe you have the same one which confused your bike shop?

    my wife's rear Maxle (TA with a cam lock) on her Spec Rhyme mtb has come loose approx every 4th ride. One time it unlocked AND unthreaded all the way out of the threads as we discovered half way through a ride! That could have damaged the end of the threads, but it didn't. Now she knows to check it before every ride.

    Difficult to cross thread the thru axle because it is always aligned by the opposing hole. That pretty much guarantees it will never be cross threaded.
    The 12x148 on the back of one of my bikes is actually pretty hard to line up. It usually takes a light smack to get everything to go together. But, with the history if that bike, I wouldn't be surprised if it was slightly bent from the factory.

    The Fox thru axle tension adjustment is a little numbered and toothed wheel on the non-brake side of the fork. It's more difficult than it needs to be. The rear axle is tensioned via an allen bolt accessible by the lever, which is easy. It's a huge, clunky thing though, and I've been considering replacing it with a bolt-in Carbon-Ti axle (the brand, not the material... it's aluminum)



    https://www.ridefox.com/fox_tech_cen...onsQR32mm.html

    Loosening up on a ride and then backing out a bit is no good. Good call on checking it before each ride. Can you adjust the tension? Perhaps it's just not tight enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    And that would be the last time I visit that shop.
    I'm only going back there for frame warranty issues. Already been back once, but they only touched the bike with their eyeballs to verify that Trek's version of Loctite doesn't work.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I never timed myself doing it, so that was a shot from the hip. I bow to your superiority.

    BTW: I never lost a skewer nut in the old days before lawyer tabs. It has happened a couple of times since then (so I keep an extra in my car's bike tool kit nowadays).
    My point wasn't that I'm Super Wheel Changer as I'm sure just about everyone but you can do it in 3 seconds, it was that your experience of talking a great deal more time is bizarre.

    The fact you lose skewer nuts changing a wheel, or even take them off, confirms your experience with skewers is indeed bizarre. Very bizarre.

  9. #59
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    Who takes off the skewers completely? Just gotta know which way yo yank it, yo.
    "That pretty much sums it up. I'm 43 and my max is ~178-180. If that HR chart was mine or Froome's, we'd be on the verge of death. But for you it probably looks like a normal workout." -TLG

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    My point wasn't that I'm Super Wheel Changer as I'm sure just about everyone but you can do it in 3 seconds, it was that your experience of talking a great deal more time is bizarre.

    The fact you lose skewer nuts changing a wheel, or even take them off, confirms your experience with skewers is indeed bizarre. Very bizarre.
    I think brad's referring to having to unscrew the skewer nut in order for the wheel to clear the lawyer lips.

    No tabs: flip the quick release lever, wheel drops out. No adjustment necessary when putting the wheel back on. Clip the lever shut and it returns to the tension it had before.

    I bet you can't change a wheel in 3 seconds having to tension the QR each time. It takes at least two tries to get it right, about 8 seconds. So much for "quick release." I hate lawyer lips.

  11. #61
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    Worst thread ever

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by porterhouse View Post
    Worst thread ever

    No...not by a long shot.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I think brad's referring to having to unscrew the skewer nut in order for the wheel to clear the lawyer lips.

    No tabs: flip the quick release lever, wheel drops out. No adjustment necessary when putting the wheel back on. Clip the lever shut and it returns to the tension it had before.

    I bet you can't change a wheel in 3 seconds having to tension the QR each time. It takes at least two tries to get it right, about 8 seconds. So much for "quick release." I hate lawyer lips.

    Yup. Love the thru-axles on my current bike, so much better than dealing with not-so-quick release lawyer tabs.
    Pop off handle is a nice feature too




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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Yup. Love the thru-axles on my current bike, so much better than dealing with not-so-quick release lawyer tabs.
    Pop off handle is a nice feature too




    .
    You still have to twist the nut onto the other end, right? How heavy is the tool used? Oh, or you hold the nut in place and twist the lever on the other side?

    I've ridden standard QR wheels without lawyer lips for years. Never had brake rubs climbing or accelerating or felt any uncertainty scribing around corners. A solid CRMO axle, held in place between two CRMO dropouts with moderate pressure on the chromed steel Campy skewer ends, and internal adjusting cams, has worked great for all my road riding.

    With mountain bikes riding off road using disc brakes, fine, go for it. But on road bikes, same as disc brakes, I see little advantage, instead handicaps. I'll stick with the tried and true.

    The nice thing is a well engineered simple bike gets you down the road with finesse and style just as well as the high tech complicated version. Have to wonder how often riders get chain skip on these 11 speed cassettes. I've got 6 speeds, all the gears I'll ever need, and never miss a shift. I can adjust the chain on the fly loosening the wing nut on the down tube shifter and move it wherever I want it. Nobody's gonna tell me that's more complicated than click shifting. When it fails, its the other way around. When click shifters came out in the late 80s, they had manual overrride. Twist the wing nut one click and rider could adjust the chain with the shift lever, because sooner or later the click detents would go out of synch and the chain would skip.

    Riding a bike is a manual activity. On road bikes with rim brakes, true QR without lawyer tabs is still the elegant solution.

    Frankly, now that manufacturers are pushing disc brakes on road bikes, thru axles are probably introduced, like the lawyer tabs back in the 80s, to avoid liability issues when some kid forgets to tighten the QR skewer enough, and the wheel slips out of the dropouts when braking hard. Also probably to compensate for lesser quality aluminum dropouts and skewers, market driven to get the weight as light as possible. They aren't as solid as good old steel.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 06-07-2017 at 07:30 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    You still have to twist the nut onto the other end, right? How heavy is the tool used? Oh, or you hold the nut in place and twist the lever on the other side?
    Huh? Thru-axle threads into the frame/fork, no nuts, no tools, no fussing with getting the tension right with quick release on a bike with lawyer tabs
    The picture is of a DT Swiss axle with a detachable lever. You can leave it in, or take it out for a clean look and put it in your pocket/seatbag for when you need it. Or you can also use a standard 6mm hex (which you should already have in your kit).



    The nice thing is a well engineered simple bike gets you down the road with finesse and style just as well as the high tech complicated version. Have to wonder how often riders get chain skip on these 11 speed cassettes. I've got 6 speeds, all the gears I'll ever need, and never miss a shift. I can adjust the chain on the fly loosening the wing nut on the down tube shifter and moving it wherever I want it. Nobody's gonna tell me that's more complicated than click shifting. When it fails, its the other way around. When click shifters came out in the late 80s, they had manual overrride. Twist the wing nut one click and rider could adjust the chain with the shift lever, because sooner or later the click detents would go out of synch and the chain would skip.
    Riding a bike is a manual activity. On road bikes with rim brakes, True QR without lawyer tabs is still the elegant solution.
    If you're going to play the luddite card, a fixed gear with no brakes is the elegant solution.

    And more than 30k miles on 11-speed, never a skip, never needed an adjustment on the fly ( even better with Di2 )



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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    What is it so many people loath about "lawyer tabs". Do they really inconvenience you that greatly?
    It's not like its some great tragedy, its just a little bit more inconvenient. I mean I rode 10 years on mtb's without and never had a front wheel, or back suddenly eject itself. Is it the end of the world, no but at the moment, between 4 bikes, i have 3 different levels of lawyer tabs, so you fiddle with the QR, nope, little more, nope, now it's off, then putting back on, fiddle fiddle, too much, not enough. It's a minor pain, that I didn't have years ago.

    Yeah, the tool you need to carry to loosen a TA really weighs so much it will slow you down.
    No idea, neither of my TA have a tool, it' all built in, I find t the next level of annoyance over lawyer tabs. Will I not buy a bike because it has a TA, no of course not, but as I have a suspension fork with a QR that stiffer than a fork with a TA, I pretty much don't care about them.

    At the end of the day, it's small things to complain about, we're on a forum talking about stuff, voicing opinions. I hate getting flats too,especially when combined with having to deal with lawyer tabs, or even worse TA, but I'm not going to top riding because I hate flats... but at least I get less flats running tubes than tubeless... because I hate tubeless...
    All the gear and no idea

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Huh? Thru-axle threads into the frame/fork, no nuts, no tools, no fussing with getting the tension right with quick release on a bike with lawyer tabs
    The picture is of a DT Swiss axle with a detachable lever. You can leave it in, or take it out for a clean look and put it in your pocket/seatbag for when you need it. Or you can also use a standard 6mm hex (which you should already have in your kit).





    If you're going to play the luddite card, a fixed gear with no brakes is the elegant solution.

    And more than 30k miles on 11-speed, never a skip, never needed an adjustment on the fly ( even better with Di2 )
    30,000 miles? Very impressive! That's at least four or five chains, right?

    Thanks for explaining how this newfangled scheme works.

    And yeah, purists love single speed! Trouble is, as light as single speeds are, normal people do need a few gears, you know, to handle the terrain. And most single speeds have a front brake, just in case. So adding a freewheel, front and rear mechanical derailleurs, rear brake, fenders, are modest logical finesses, still tied to fully manual operation. No batteries, no computer software, GPS, Strava, electric assist motors, elastomer shocks, on and on. That's all great for the sport and lots of fun to play with. It adds to the experience, for sure. But its equipment. Different strokes for different folks, customized to the desires and ambitions of the rider, and the places he rides.

    Come to think of it, a thru axle threaded with a standard allen wrench directly into the fork is indeed an elegant solution! No cams to wear down, springs to rust out, thumb nuts to lose in the grass changing a flat in the middle of nowhere, no adjustments necessary. Just slap it on there, screw it tight, done. I'm convinced.

    Now if they'll standardize the parts. Never mind.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 06-07-2017 at 08:46 PM.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I think brad's referring to having to unscrew the skewer nut in order for the wheel to clear the lawyer lips.

    No tabs: flip the quick release lever, wheel drops out. No adjustment necessary when putting the wheel back on. Clip the lever shut and it returns to the tension it had before.

    I bet you can't change a wheel in 3 seconds having to tension the QR each time. It takes at least two tries to get it right, about 8 seconds. So much for "quick release." I hate lawyer lips.
    Bingo. And some forks have deeper lawyer tabs than others and require you to unscrew it even further. My 2009 Trek 520 is one of those - there is only a couple of threads still in the nut when it clears the tabs. Now, lay that wheel down in the truck of an old car and the vibration of a couple hundred miles of highway means that nut is likely to fall off... keep a trunk as messy as the one I had on that car and you're making a trip to a bike shop to buy a new skewer.


    Anyone who spent decades dealing with removing wheels prior to the development of lawyer tabs most likely dislikes the new setup. How much one dislikes them is going to vary, but I know that I certainly prefer not having them. Especially when dealing with the roof rack. In the old days it was easy: pop the bike up there and close the QR. Now you have to hold the bike up with one hand while tightening (or loosening) the lockable skewer - a serious pain in the butt if the car isn't parked on level terrain.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I think brad's referring to having to unscrew the skewer nut in order for the wheel to clear the lawyer lips.
    I don't care what he's referring to. Taking off the nut (and losing it) to take off a front wheel is not typical regardless.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    Bingo. And some forks have deeper lawyer tabs than others and require you to unscrew it even further. My 2009 Trek 520 is one of those - there is only a couple of threads still in the nut when it clears the tabs. Now, lay that wheel down in the truck of an old car and the vibration of a couple hundred miles of highway means that nut is likely to fall off...
    That's really really odd. In all the bikes I've ever owned, the dozens and dozens of QR's I've owned, I've never once had that happen.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I don't care what he's referring to. Taking off the nut (and losing it) to take off a front wheel is not typical regardless.
    Yeah, that seems unnecessary. I will say that a recent Trek Crockett that I owned had massive lawyer tabs. Like, twice the size of typical tabs, which did make it pretty annoying. The dropouts on that fork are positioned slightly differently than most forks, which may have been why.

    I made a mistake in an earlier post regarding the 9mm QR. It's a 5mm tension axle that goes through a 9mm axle (part of the hub), and that 9mm axle is what sits in the fork dropouts.

    It also seems that some people are confusing thru axles with bolt-in axles. They can be the same thing (like that slick DT), but typically a thru axle has a QR-like cam lever on one side. The lever operates exactly like it does on a traditional QR; it's just all bigger and threads into the frame/fork instead of a nut.


  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    There is this one thru axle which comes with the newer Suntour forks which is confusing and clunky. It does not thread in, it relies wholly on the cam mechanism, but features a safety which totally prevent the axle coming out.
    Came on my Spec Fuse comp MTB. I have figured it out, but still a pita. Maybe you have the same one which confused your bike shop?

    my wife's rear Maxle (TA with a cam lock) on her Spec Rhyme mtb has come loose approx every 4th ride. One time it unlocked AND unthreaded all the way out of the threads as we discovered half way through a ride! That could have damaged the end of the threads, but it didn't. Now she knows to check it before every ride.

    Difficult to cross thread the thru axle because it is always aligned by the opposing hole. That pretty much guarantees it will never be cross threaded.
    Maxles (rear wheel) have a hex screw in the cam that need adjustment every once in a while. That will fix her problem.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveRider View Post
    Maxles (rear wheel) have a hex screw in the cam that need adjustment every once in a while. That will fix her problem.
    Which many people, mechanics included, either aren't aware of or don't know how to adjust. They then try to make up for any 'looseness' by over tightening the axle and damaging the aluminum 'cup' on the older style Maxxle where the q/r lever sits in the notch. They're very easy to use, effective, and safe...if you know how they work.
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  24. #74
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    So, no one else has used a dremel tool to grind down their lawyer tabs? I wouldn't do it on my mountain bike with disk brakes. But on my road bike, the brake pads are too narrow for my tire(28mm) to clear without the rubbing.

  25. #75
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    For a road bike without disc brakes, sure a TA is probably overkill. But...a trapped axle with higher moment of inertia is stronger, will help stiffen the fork and will better resist the forces applied.

    Don't believe me....here's a really simple example. Grab an 8.5x11" sheet of plain paper. Hold it between your finger and thumb at the middle of a short edge. What happens...it bends. Roll it into a tube (no overlap required) and hold where the sheet edges meet. Same flop? Nope! Higher moment of inertia of the member (or axle on the bike) leads to a stiffer structure. There's no magic here...it's the same cross-section of paper....just arranged in a different shape.

    Sure, TAs have their own concerns, but in regard to strength / stiffness, they are superior to QR's.
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