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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieRN View Post
    I'm a little ashamed to a) admit that I read through this whole thread and; b) resurrect it from it's fairly shallow grave. For the record, as a relatively impartial observer, the arguments in the thread have convinced me that there is a slight advantage to TA, mostly due to the potential for obsolesce associated with QR skewers.
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieRN View Post

    My purpose is not to add to the debate (which was certainly amusing, if at times more than a bit snarky), but to pose a question related to the great QR-TA argument.

    I'm in the process of doing a bike build around an endurance/gravel disc frameset that has an "interchangeable dropout system for 9mm QR or 12x142 TA" and a fork that can only handle 9mm QR. I'll be having a wheelset built, so the question is: Better to have both hubs as 9mm QR or have a front QR hub and and a rear TA?


    Since your fork is QR only, you should probably just go QR all around. The benefits to TA don't apply as much to the rear as the do in the front (TA can really stiffen up an otherwise floppy fork).

    If you haven't chosen your wheel components already, I might suggest that you have the wheels built using hubs that can be converted between any modern system (QR/TA-12mm/TA-15mm). This will future proof them and make them adaptable between different bikes.

    I know DT Swiss hubs have interchangeable end caps that allow conversion without the need for any tools. Some other hubs can be converted but are a a bit more involved (Chris King for example). I think White hubs can be converted fairly easily as well (only requires a small allen key if I recall correctly). These are hubs I have personal experience with, and they are all excellent. There are probably many others out now that offer this feature - I'm sure others will chime in with details.
    Last edited by Migen21; 11-14-2017 at 09:14 AM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post

    . .
    . Some other hubs can be converted but are a a bit more involved (Chris King for example). I think White hubs can be converted fairly easily as well (only requires a small allen key if I recall correctly). These are hubs I have personal experience with, and they are all excellent. There are probably many others out now that offer this feature - I'm sure others will chime in with details.
    I'm using T11 hubs with Achetype rims on my current bike and am very pleased. My preference is to stick with White; I'm going to contact them on the question of convertibility.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieRN View Post
    I'm using T11 hubs with Achetype rims on my current bike and am very pleased. My preference is to stick with White; I'm going to contact them on the question of convertibility.
    They sell the conversion kits on their website.

    CONVERSION KITS — White Industries

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by factory feel View Post
    Shirley you can't be serious.
    I thought the saying went, You can't be serious Shirley. ;)

    OP, many alternative designs occupy bicycles. Many are frustrated by press fit BB's for example. Or proprietary seatposts.

    Simply purchase the bicycle which has the design features you prefer. Coming from the world of design, ever single design ever conceived has both benefit and drawback.

  5. #105
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    i can't help myself. I need to jump in to the fray.

    the lawyer tabs really are a problem. i worked at a bike shop for many years, and have helped countless lay-people with their bikes on the side.

    At least 50% of the population can not figure out how a quick release works without some guidance. on the rear axle, it's because of the chain, and on the front axle it's because of the lawyer tabs.

    it's not obvious that you need to screw the nut on the opposite side several turns before engaging the lever. in fact, if you have the humility to remove yourself from your own body and imagine you've never installed a wheel before, you'd realize that it's counterintuitive. the intuitive thing to do would be to just flip the lever, and not mess with an "adjustment".

    without the lawyer tabs, 99% of the time you'd just drop the wheel in and flip the lever. far fewer people would ride around on loose wheels.

    call them idiots all you want. it's the truth.

  6. #106
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    sometimes I enjoy a quick release...

  7. #107
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    Hmmmm, you might be the only one.

    My buddy thought those tabs were for wossy'es, so he filed his off. Later, he was driving around a corner and looked out his window and the bike had come out of the rack on the front fork mount, it was still attached on the rear with the strap. But it was dangling and banging around till he could find a place to pull over. Holarious.
    BANNED

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by studbike View Post
    i can't help myself. I need to jump in to the fray.

    the lawyer tabs really are a problem. i worked at a bike shop for many years, and have helped countless lay-people with their bikes on the side.

    At least 50% of the population can not figure out how a quick release works without some guidance. on the rear axle, it's because of the chain, and on the front axle it's because of the lawyer tabs.

    it's not obvious that you need to screw the nut on the opposite side several turns before engaging the lever. in fact, if you have the humility to remove yourself from your own body and imagine you've never installed a wheel before, you'd realize that it's counterintuitive. the intuitive thing to do would be to just flip the lever, and not mess with an "adjustment".

    without the lawyer tabs, 99% of the time you'd just drop the wheel in and flip the lever. far fewer people would ride around on loose wheels.

    call them idiots all you want. it's the truth.
    So do you really think removing lawyer tabs would help people learn how to mount a quick release? I think not. I can't count the number of times I have helped people change a flat and their QR was dangerously loose. Without lawyer tabs, these idiots would be dead.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  9. #109
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    Lawyer tabs can be easily filed off (not recommended if your fork has carbon tips)..Even though it is technically illegal, I've never seen (or heard of) an official checking lawyer tabs before a race......If you have disc brakes, it's safer to have a thru axle front and back. Not sure if it's possible to lose your wheel if you have your QR "properly" fastened.....(Note properly)
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by studbike View Post
    i can't help myself. I need to jump in to the fray.

    the lawyer tabs really are a problem. i worked at a bike shop for many years, and have helped countless lay-people with their bikes on the side.

    At least 50% of the population can not figure out how a quick release works without some guidance. on the rear axle, it's because of the chain, and on the front axle it's because of the lawyer tabs.

    it's not obvious that you need to screw the nut on the opposite side several turns before engaging the lever. in fact, if you have the humility to remove yourself from your own body and imagine you've never installed a wheel before, you'd realize that it's counterintuitive. the intuitive thing to do would be to just flip the lever, and not mess with an "adjustment".

    without the lawyer tabs, 99% of the time you'd just drop the wheel in and flip the lever. far fewer people would ride around on loose wheels.

    call them idiots all you want. it's the truth.
    ^Ban this guy^
    I work for some bike racers
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  11. #111
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    35 years riding in all kinds of conditions, never lost a wheel. So nice to slip off the front wheel with one hand when loading bike in car. Rider feels when the grip is sufficient closing the lever. I've witnessed way more QRs adjusted too tight than too loose.

    Two good reasons for lawyer lips, however:

    1. Naive riders who don't tension lever to hold the wheel in a panic stop. They close the QR to get rid of play, but there's no grip. That's what the lawyers are worried about.

    2, Disc brakes transfer heavy torque on the axle possibly enough to twist the wheel out of the dropouts. For this, thru axles are the solution. They're also more idiot proof, as rider just hand tightens them as far as they'll go. No guessing how much tension is required. Thru axles make more sense than lawyer lips, IMO. As a safeguard against loose wheels they're fool proof.

    In the meantime I'll keep my 2 bikes with true QR dropouts. Luv 'em when transporting the bike or fixing a flat.

  12. #112
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    thru axles aren't designed to be a solution to wheels being pulled out with discs. they are a solution to overflexing/twisting of the fork under disc braking. more of a problem with mtn bike suspension forks though

    if I was still racing and wanted to be able to use pit wheels in crits .. file those lips off baby

    I like the idea of thru axles. but I have all QR wheels. so I am building myself a new bike using disc wheels from my stash. and they have QR. such a pain to have to buy entire new wheels to get the newer tech. (OK dont flame me, it is a new cross bike!)

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by studbike View Post
    i worked at a bike shop for many years, and have helped countless lay-people with their bikes on the side.

    At least 50% of the population can not figure out how a quick release works without some guidance.
    It would be nice if bike shops actually spent a few minutes with a customer when they buy a new bike to show them how a QR works, adjust the brakes and maybe oil a chain. Would prevent a lot of unnecessary issues...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmB123 View Post
    It would be nice if bike shops actually spent a few minutes with a customer when they buy a new bike to show them how a QR works, adjust the brakes and maybe oil a chain. Would prevent a lot of unnecessary issues...

    Some people don't want taught. Others wouldn't remember it.

    One person on our state cycling tour had a flat. Rode it flat for the rest of the day, when called on it by SAG she had them fix it...She didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it. They sincerely offered to take the extra time to teach her---she didn't want to learn.

    As for the rest....it is exactly like all the rest of that one-time-use knowledge you're taught and forgot you ever read or learned. Most people never remove a wheel, let's be honest.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Some people don't want taught. Others wouldn't remember it.
    That doesn't mean shops shouldn't at least try to educate people - I'm sure if they said "pay attention, if you don't get this right your front wheel could fall out" that at least some people might remember it.

    Most people never remove a wheel, let's be honest.
    I would say that 100% of people that are having issues with QR and Lawyer Tabs are removing wheels


    I do agree that a lot of people just don't want to know and are happily ignorant to a lot of things in life

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmB123 View Post
    That doesn't mean shops shouldn't at least try to educate people - I'm sure if they said "pay attention, if you don't get this right your front wheel could fall out" that at least some people might remember it.


    I would say that 100% of people that are having issues with QR and Lawyer Tabs are removing wheels


    I do agree that a lot of people just don't want to know and are happily ignorant to a lot of things in life
    The three shops I worked in, it was standard procedure to check first time buyers out on quick release. We'd show 'em how to do it and then have them do it so we could see if they got it. It was part and parcel of fitting and explaining the gears, Presta valves, proper tire pressure. We felt it was a liability issue, so were pretty strict about it.

  17. #117
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    On the general thread topic, my experience is as follows:

    1. I have about 6,000 miles on a hydro disc brake bike with QR. I initially had the problem of having the QR skewer shift/twist in the fork under hard braking. It would move enough to make the pads rub the rotor and was a real pain. I upgraded to much stronger and more reliable Shimano XT skewers, and this prevented the shifting. But I could still feel a bit of torque and twist on hard braking.

    And it is consistently a pain in the butt to deal with pad/rotor alignment when removing and replacing the wheel. The nature of the way the QR tightens the fork onto the hubs means that it doesn't always line up the same, and hydro pads are not adjustable, so at best it requires redoing the QR multiple times, and at worst it requires realigning the caliper. I got used to this, but it's still a pain.

    2. Just got a new bike with thru axles. The feel under hard braking is very different – no torque/twist. Perhaps this is due to the stiffness of the forks, but I suspect the QR vs thru axle also makes a difference.

    The difference in lining up rotors and pads is night and day: because the thru axle threads in, it puts the rotor in the middle of the pads every time. SO much easier.
    Last edited by fronesis; 12-13-2017 at 01:45 PM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by fronesis View Post
    On the general thread topic, my experience is as follows:

    1. I have about 6,000 miles on a hydro disc brake bike with QR. I initially had the problem of having the QR skewer shift/twist in the fork under hard braking. It would move enough to make the pads rub the rotor and was a real pain. I upgraded to much stronger and more reliable Shimano XT skewers, and this prevented the shifting. But I could still feel a bit of torque and twist on hard braking.

    And it is consistently a pain in the butt to deal with pad/rotor alignment when removing and replacing the wheel. The nature of the way the QR tightens the fork onto the hubs means that it doesn't always line up the same, and hydro pads are not adjustable, so at best it requires redoing the QR multiple times, and at worst it requires realigning the caliper. I got used to this, but it's still a pain.

    2. Just got a new bike with thru axles. The feel under hard braking is very different – no torque/twist. Perhaps this is due to the stiffness of the forks, but I suspect the QR vs thru axle also makes a difference.

    The difference in lining up rotors and pads is night and day: because the thru axle threads in, it puts the rotor in the middle of the pads every time. SO much easier.
    Fron, your experience re: TA and QR is that of the majority of riders. The thread topic is Waspinator's contrarian opinion which does not line up with the rest of the world.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #119
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    Thanks for this thread dredge! I missed this thread when it was new. This is such an interesting topic to debate.

    Seeing this thread in my New Posts... it's like a christmas miracle.

    I have no dog in this hunt other than to say that Campy QRs are better than all other QRs, and probably better than 99% of TAs out there.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Fron, your experience re: TA and QR is that of the majority of riders. The thread topic is Waspinator's contrarian opinion which does not line up with the rest of the world.
    Also note that waspinator bought a thru axle disc bike after making this thread.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I have no dog in this hunt other than to say that Campy QRs are better than all other QRs, and probably better than 99% of TAs out there.
    1983: ain't that the truth
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    1983: ain't that the truth
    Damb straight.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Also note that waspinator bought a thru axle disc bike after making this thread.
    I guess he finally saw the errors of his ways and is a reformed man.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I guess he finally saw the errors of his ways and is a reformed man.
    Yeah but it has 6/5 bent Ti sheet to make up for the lack of QR's
    All the gear and no idea

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Through axle is an idiotic design - one of several that have become popular in bicycles over the last two decades.

    People talk about the stiffness of the through-axle system because it's thicker. That's horseshit. Such arguments show a complete lack of understanding of the forces involved. Every Tom Dick and Harry who builds products for bikes assumes that bigger diameter automatically equates to greater stiffness. This is reliably true for tubes. But not everything else.

    First, the skinny quick release skewer doesn't support any weight to begin with. Its sole purpose is to squeeze the hub and dropouts together and keep everything in place via friction, hence, it need only have significant tensile strength, not stiffness. The hub itself has an axle of its own on which the dropout sits. It supports the dropouts vertically. While this QR axle is still narrower than the through-axle skewer, it also does not dictate the stiffness of the hub-dropout connection. When squeezed together with the skewer, the larger face of the hub's axle pressed against the inner surface of the dropout is large, as are the faces of the skewer's cam and acorn nut. The SURFACE AREA being squeezed against the dropouts is what ensures that the hub is held in place and unable to move relative to the dropouts, and vice versa. This is what dictates the stiffness of the system. It has absolutely nothing to do with the diameter of the axle traversing the dropouts.

    Furthermore, thru axles must be screwed into place. And anyone with two connecting neurons knows that a cam is a vastly more secure method of maintaining tightness than a screw. The through axle by definition depends on screwing the thing tight enough to create significant friction between the axle and the dropout, which is more difficult to do. It also will produce more damage to the dropout each time it's screwed and unscrewed. A cam merely presses against the dropout.
    They should have kept you locked up at bikeforums net. This is the kind of stupid shite that gets posted over there.

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