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  1. #51
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    just relax about it knowing that their mountain bike wheel will be mounted on a fork that weighs many times as much as your road fork, lol (but it wasn't always that way)
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  2. #52
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    I'm getting the feeling we're all coming at this from different angles.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I'm getting the feeling we're all coming at this from different angles.
    You're probably right.

    (BTW - sorry to all for the snarky posts, my fault for being too thin-skinned.)

    In other news: the post order looks OK to me. Browser issue?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I'm getting the feeling we're all coming at this from different angles.
    Could be. A few just refuse to think about it, I think, but whatever.

    Not to anyone in particular but:
    Do you agree a fat bike or car tire will be really hard at 50 PSI and a road tire will be pretty soft at the same PSI? Thus there has to be more pressure, force, whatever being exerted to make it harder, thus pressure does increase with volume at the same PSI?

    If you agree the massive tire will be hard and the skinny one will be soft at the same 50 PSI I think the topic is dead than.

    If you don't agree then I'd suggested grabbing a fat bike, road bike and a pump and do some pinching before concluding you are correct.

  5. #55
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    It's the volume. If a skinny road tire feels nearly flat at 50, a mtb tire feels hard at 50 and car tire feels like concrete at 50 the only thing it can be is volume. They're all inflated to 50psi but feel radically different.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Could be. A few just refuse to think about it, I think, but whatever.

    Not to anyone in particular but:
    Do you agree a fat bike or car tire will be really hard at 50 PSI and a road tire will be pretty soft at the same PSI? Thus there has to be more pressure, force, whatever being exerted to make it harder, thus pressure does increase with volume at the same PSI?

    If you agree the massive tire will be hard and the skinny one will be soft at the same 50 PSI I think the topic is dead than.

    If you don't agree then I'd suggested grabbing a fat bike, road bike and a pump and do some pinching before concluding you are correct.
    First: I did not intend to insult you in my posts. I apologize, I should have chosen to express myself differently.

    Second: I'm not an engineer. Yes, I've got a chemistry degree and thus have been exposed to Boyle's/Charles's/Ideal gas laws, but that doesn't necessarily apply to this discussion. It is certainly possible that I am mistaken because I'm not thinking of this correctly, but I honestly don't think so.

    Road tires, mountain bike tires and car tires are constructed differently, to serve different purposes, so in comparing them you're comparing apples to oranges. Road tires are built to minimize rolling resistance and maximize grip on a smooth surface. Mountain bike tires are designed to be operated at a lower pressure in order to maximize the contact area for better traction. Car tires are designed to meet needs similar to those of road bike tires, but car tires have to support a much greater weight; withstand much greater impacts (more weight at higher speeds); withstand greater temperature ranges due to more friction at higher speeds; etc.

    Consider a 25 mm road tire and a 50 mm road tire.
    Can we agree that the volume of the 50 mm road tire is 2x that of the 25 mm tire?

    Inflate the 25 mm road tire to 100 psi. You have, let's say, 0.5 L of air in the tire exerting 100 psi of force on the container (that is to say on the tire and on the rim). So every square inch of the tire and every square inch of the rim is under 100 lb of pressure.

    Inflate the 50 mm road tire to 100 psi. In this example, you have 1 L of air in the tire exerting 100 psi of force on the container (tire and rim).

    Can you please explain to me how the larger tire is putting more stress on the rim?

    Yes, there is more total force (the same pressure is exerted over a larger surface area, therefore there is more total pressure on the rim). However, the rim is larger, spreading the force out over a larger area, so the force per unit area is the same.

    Sorry, but I'm really not understanding what you meant when you said "More volume would create more pressure at the same PSI. And at lower pressure to a certain point."

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    How many times do I have to say 'Boyle's Law'. It's why fatbike rims have pressure limits of around 25psi and many mtb rims have lower pressure limits for larger tires, higher pressure limits for smaller tires. As the volume of air goes up the pressure needed for a similar feel goes down. A 3" tire at 100psi would probably destroy any rim made.
    Yep. Just try inflating a car tire to 100PSI and see what happens. Nope, don't do this!!!!
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You have never taken a physics class, right? Or at least never paid attention to the very basics? Practical, easy-to-understand explanation:

    Attachment 323093

    (follow me?)

    This explains why you don't need 100psi in a mountain bike tire for it to feel hard as a rock and why you see labels on fatbike rims (4.0-5.0") saying 'do not inflate to over 25psi'.
    Not to mention if you rode a 5" fatbike tire at 25PSI, it would feel like a bucking bronco. 10PSI is plenty for those. Some even use less.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Could be. A few just refuse to think about it, I think, but whatever.

    Not to anyone in particular but:
    Do you agree a fat bike or car tire will be really hard at 50 PSI and a road tire will be pretty soft at the same PSI? Thus there has to be more pressure, force, whatever being exerted to make it harder, thus pressure does increase with volume at the same PSI?

    If you agree the massive tire will be hard and the skinny one will be soft at the same 50 PSI I think the topic is dead than.

    If you don't agree then I'd suggested grabbing a fat bike, road bike and a pump and do some pinching before concluding you are correct.
    You take a car tire, just he tire no air, you ain't gonna be able to pinch it with your fingers! Car tires are constructed entirely differently than a road bicycle tire. Your usage of the word "hard" and "soft" has no scientific basis, i.e., no formula or equation to describe what is hard or soft, so using these terms to describe your intuition of linking "PSI" to hard and soft is, well, wrong.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post

    Road tires, mountain bike tires and car tires are constructed differently, to serve different purposes, so in comparing them you're comparing apples to oranges.

    Can you please explain to me how the larger tire is putting more stress on the rim?

    No, I can't. I'm not claiming to be a scientist here. But I could easily prove it to you with a couple tires and a rim.

    It's not at all apples and oranges in the context of this discussion. But if you insist it is; There are now 35ish tires that are constructed pretty much the same as light race tires that you could also illustrate the same thing with. Those might blow an average road rim apart at, say, 120 psi, whereas that's no big deal for most rims with a 23mm tire.

    Can we at least agree that if one tire is rock hard and the another one is soft on the same rim that the rock hard one is putting more stress on the rim?

    If you agree with that then you just need to find a few tires of different size and it will be easy to prove that at the same PSI the bigger tire is much harder thus putting more stress on a rim.
    Or if you're willing to accept the chart CX posted as fact that makes it plain as day.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    You take a car tire, just he tire no air, you ain't gonna be able to pinch it with your fingers! Car tires are constructed entirely differently than a road bicycle tire. Your usage of the word "hard" and "soft" has no scientific basis, i.e., no formula or equation to describe what is hard or soft, so using these terms to describe your intuition of linking "PSI" to hard and soft is, well, wrong.
    Um, okay. Because I'm not a scientist I'm not qualified to tell the difference between a rock hard and soft tire. Got it.

    Your comment about tire construction is a red herring. When comparing huge thin road tires (like say compass) to the same thing in a 23 the same is true. You may not agree with that but disqualifying using a car tire as the example just to clearly illustrate the point is a red herring. I am saying the same would be true with a Vittoria Corsa made the size of a car tire.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    You take a car tire, just he tire no air, you ain't gonna be able to pinch it with your fingers! Car tires are constructed entirely differently than a road bicycle tire. Your usage of the word "hard" and "soft" has no scientific basis, i.e., no formula or equation to describe what is hard or soft, so using these terms to describe your intuition of linking "PSI" to hard and soft is, well, wrong.
    Again...
    700 x 23 at 50psi

    70 x 35 at 50psi

    29 x 2.2 at 50psi

    26 x 5.00 at 50psi (don't even try it)

    That right there is what we're talking about. The 23mm road tire would feel soft, the fat bike tire would blow the rim up. It's about volume changing w/ the same pressure. Huge differences.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    No, I can't. I'm not claiming to be a scientist here. But I could easily prove it to you with a couple tires and a rim.

    It's not at all apples and oranges in the context of this discussion. But if you insist it is; There are now 35ish tires that are constructed pretty much the same as light race tires that you could also illustrate the same thing with. Those might blow an average road rim apart at, say, 120 psi, whereas that's no big deal for most rims with a 23mm tire.

    Can we at least agree that if one tire is rock hard and the another one is soft on the same rim that the rock hard one is putting more stress on the rim?

    If you agree with that then you just need to find a few tires of different size and it will be easy to prove that at the same PSI the bigger tire is much harder thus putting more stress on a rim.
    Or if you're willing to accept the chart CX posted as fact that makes it plain as day.
    OK, let's do that. The chart that CX posted shows different size tires with different volumes and different pressures. The casing tension is identical for all. In other words, the "stress" on the casing is the same independent of tire volume as long as the pressure is varied. So, how does increasing the volume alone cause more stress on the rim? If the casing tension is the same, that implies that the rim is under the same tension independent of volume, because air pressure is exerted in all directions.

    (I'm not going to get into "hardness" because that's subjective. My bike tire pumped to 100 psi feels "harder" to me than my car tire at 35 psi, even though the car tire is far, far thicker and stiffer.)

    People keep saying "pump a mb tire to 100 psi and watch it blow off the rim". I don't see how this is relevant. The tire blows off the rim because the friction between the tire bead and the inner surface of the rim is insufficient to contain the pressure, not because the rim collapses and not because there is a greater volume in the tire, except insofar as the volume increases the pressure.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    OK, let's do that. The chart that CX posted shows different size tires with different volumes and different pressures. The casing tension is identical for all. In other words, the "stress" on the casing is the same independent of tire volume as long as the pressure is varied. So, how does increasing the volume alone cause more stress on the rim? If the casing tension is the same, that implies that the rim is under the same tension independent of volume, because air pressure is exerted in all directions.
    The chart he posted shows that as the tire get bigger (more volume) it takes less PSI to create the same stress on the casing.
    If you don't feel it can be deducted that also proves/shows a bigger tire will be creating more stress on the casing than a smaller one at the same PSI I really can't think of anything to say.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Um, okay. Because I'm not a scientist I'm not qualified to tell the difference between a rock hard and soft tire. Got it.

    Your comment about tire construction is a red herring. When comparing huge thin road tires (like say compass) to the same thing in a 23 the same is true. You may not agree with that but disqualifying using a car tire as the example just to clearly illustrate the point is a red herring. I am saying the same would be true with a Vittoria Corsa made the size of a car tire.
    ugh no, you use vague terms such as hard and soft in to describe a technical situation, and I'm saying they don't make a lot of sense due to their vagueness because they have have no mathematical basis. You cannot mix and match terms like PSI (pressure per square inch) that have a precise scientific definition to terms like hard and soft and expect your argument to be a solid one. No, what I'm asking you is not a red herring. Any scientist would ask you the same thing.

    this was your original question:

    Do you agree a fat bike or car tire will be really hard at 50 PSI and a road tire will be pretty soft at the same PSI? Thus there has to be more pressure, force, whatever being exerted to make it harder, thus pressure does increase with volume at the same PSI?
    You were the one who applied the terms "soft" and "hard". You ask if people would agree with you. And I told you that a car tire even without pumping any air into it will feel hard. And since you didn't define what soft or hard was, I said it a car tire would be hard. But you then call my question to your usage of the these terms as a red herring. If you don't know the technicality of the topics, then it's ok, just say you don't know. But it's a little ironic to call what other people asked as red-herring when you yourself only have an intuitive grasp on the subject matter, and in science intuition sometimes can turn out to be not like what we think we were talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    For reference, this is the post that I'm disagreeing with, post #13: "More volume would create more pressure at the same PSI. And at lower pressure to a certain point."
    I’m pretty sure I clarified that by mentioning “pressure” is the wrong word to use. Stress or force increases with volume as the same given pressure (PSI). The chart cx posted demonstrates that well. If you put 120psi in a 30mm tire force on the rim and tire will be greater than 120psi on a 20mm tire.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    OK, let's do that. The chart that CX posted shows different size tires with different volumes and different pressures. The casing tension is identical for all. In other words, the "stress" on the casing is the same independent of tire volume as long as the pressure is varied. So, how does increasing the volume alone cause more stress on the rim? If the casing tension is the same, that implies that the rim is under the same tension independent of volume, because air pressure is exerted in all directions.

    (I'm not going to get into "hardness" because that's subjective. My bike tire pumped to 100 psi feels "harder" to me than my car tire at 35 psi, even though the car tire is far, far thicker and stiffer.)

    People keep saying "pump a mb tire to 100 psi and watch it blow off the rim". I don't see how this is relevant. The tire blows off the rim because the friction between the tire bead and the inner surface of the rim is insufficient to contain the pressure, not because the rim collapses and not because there is a greater volume in the tire, except insofar as the volume increases the pressure.
    Just pump a narrow tire up to 50 and a big tire up to 50 and feel the difference. That's all you need to do. The same pressure at increasing volumes would result in a higher tension number on the chart I supplied. The bigger tires would feel harder if the pressure remained the same as the size (volume) increased.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    Can we agree that the volume of the 50 mm road tire is 2x that of the 25 mm tire?
    No. The cross section of a 25 mm tire is 3.14 x 12.5 x 12.5 25 = 490.6 sq. mm
    For a 50 mm tire, it's 3.14 x 25 x 25 = 1,962.5 sq. mm, so it's four times the volume.

    I'm an accountant, but I did have a year of chemistry in high school and college

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    PSI is pressure per square inch.
    INCORRECT! PSI = POUNDS per square inch.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    no. The cross section of a 25 mm tire is 3.14 x 12.5 x 12.5 25 = 490.6 sq. Mm

    for a 50 mm tire, it's 3.14 x 25 x 25 = 1,962.5 sq. Mm, so it's four times the volume.
    Correct!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    ugh no, you use vague terms such as hard and soft in to describe a technical situation, and I'm saying they don't make a lot of sense due to their vagueness because they have have no mathematical basis. You cannot mix and match terms like PSI (pressure per square inch) that have a precise scientific definition to terms like hard and soft and expect your argument to be a solid one. No, what I'm asking you is not a red herring. Any scientist would ask you the same thing.

    this was your original question:



    You were the one who applied the terms "soft" and "hard". You ask if people would agree with you. And I told you that a car tire even without pumping any air into it will feel hard. And since you didn't define what soft or hard was, I said it a car tire would be hard. But you then call my question to your usage of the these terms as a red herring. If you don't know the technicality of the topics, then it's ok, just say you don't know. But it's a little ironic to call what other people asked as red-herring when you yourself only have an intuitive grasp on the subject matter, and in science intuition sometimes can turn out to be not like what we think we were talking about.
    okay dude. I'm pretty sure most people were able to understand the difference between a rock hard tire and a soft one in the context of a discussion about stress on a rim at certain PSI and volume without the MIT faculty on board to explain it to them so if you don't that fine.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Just pump a narrow tire up to 50 and a big tire up to 50 and feel the difference. That's all you need to do. The same pressure at increasing volumes would result in a higher tension number on the chart I supplied. The bigger tires would feel harder if the pressure remained the same as the size (volume) increased.
    right. I don't now why certain people are so resistant to just finding out themselves or going to far denying that's the case because we haven't provided "scientific proof" that the obviously harder tires actually is.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    right. I don't now why certain people are so resistant to just finding out themselves or going to far denying that's the case because we haven't provided "scientific proof" that the obviously harder tires actually is.
    It's very simple and it happens over and over again. Someone comes here for advice. When they don't get the answer they were hoping to hear, they argue to no end even though multiple people here tell them they are wrong.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&MsDad View Post
    First: I did not intend to insult you in my posts. I apologize, I should have chosen to express myself differently.

    Second: I'm not an engineer. Yes, I've got a chemistry degree and thus have been exposed to Boyle's/Charles's/Ideal gas laws, but that doesn't necessarily apply to this discussion. It is certainly possible that I am mistaken because I'm not thinking of this correctly, but I honestly don't think so.

    Road tires, mountain bike tires and car tires are constructed differently, to serve different purposes, so in comparing them you're comparing apples to oranges. Road tires are built to minimize rolling resistance and maximize grip on a smooth surface. Mountain bike tires are designed to be operated at a lower pressure in order to maximize the contact area for better traction. Car tires are designed to meet needs similar to those of road bike tires, but car tires have to support a much greater weight; withstand much greater impacts (more weight at higher speeds); withstand greater temperature ranges due to more friction at higher speeds; etc.

    Consider a 25 mm road tire and a 50 mm road tire.
    Can we agree that the volume of the 50 mm road tire is 2x that of the 25 mm tire?

    Inflate the 25 mm road tire to 100 psi. You have, let's say, 0.5 L of air in the tire exerting 100 psi of force on the container (that is to say on the tire and on the rim). So every square inch of the tire and every square inch of the rim is under 100 lb of pressure.

    Inflate the 50 mm road tire to 100 psi. In this example, you have 1 L of air in the tire exerting 100 psi of force on the container (tire and rim).

    Can you please explain to me how the larger tire is putting more stress on the rim?

    Yes, there is more total force (the same pressure is exerted over a larger surface area, therefore there is more total pressure on the rim). However, the rim is larger, spreading the force out over a larger area, so the force per unit area is the same.

    Sorry, but I'm really not understanding what you meant when you said "More volume would create more pressure at the same PSI. And at lower pressure to a certain point."
    Assuming the tire casing/rim have a perfectly circular cross section, the 50mm tire will have 4 times the volume of a 25mm tire, not 2 times the volume that you suggest. The formula is: Area of a circle=pi*R^2

    Again, assuming a perfectly circular cross section, the 50mm tire will have 2 times the circumference of a 25mm tire. The formula is: Circumference of circle=2*pi*R

    Since PSI is applied to every square inch of the tire casing/rim, the 50mm tire will have 2 times the tension (since it has 2 times the circumference) of the 25mm tire at the same air pressure. Therefore, in order to achieve the same tire casing tension with the larger tire size, one would need to reduce the tire pressure of the larger diameter tire. Tire casing tension is a major contributor to how the tire feels when squeezed or when ridden over bumps (other factors would include thickness and material of the casing). This is why a 25psi fat tire bike rides harshly whereas a 25PSI skinny tired bike wouldn't even support your weight.

  25. #75
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    Hey OP, I’ve asked the same question of carbon rim makers and a local wheel builder. They give the same kind of answer: road rims have to be stronger than mtb rims because they have to withstand more stress from the higher air pressures with smaller volume, so more carbon material is used.

    Whether or not this is scientifically accurate or valid, I don’t know, but that’s the explanation they give. Intuitively it makes sense to me, but again, they may just be trying to explain something more complicated to a layman in terms I can understand.

    And they may be blowin smoke up me arse, but I’m ok with the answer.

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