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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalbiker View Post
    ... nor is it racing.
    I'm going out on a limb here and guess that you've never tried Zwift, let alone entered a Zwift race?

    While you are certainly welcome to have an opinion about things you know very little about and have zero experience with, I'm also welcome to discount that opinion for lack of credibility.

  2. #52
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    Migen21, let them be the last to figure it out. Their loss.

    When I got on the beta 18 months ago, I knew that this software would change the cycling industry. And it has. Tacx cannot keep up with demand for the Neo trainer, and CycleOps is behind on Hammer orders.

    Every major bike manufacturer is trying to find ways to get involved with zwift, just like Strava has offered free months on Zwift for joining Strava premium. Even though many of these manufacturers are not involved with indoor training, they want to get on board and they are doing it.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinMan View Post
    Leah Thorvilson just received a pro contract from Canyon-Sram. The team used Zwift Acadamy to find new pro talent. Strange sort of "video game".

    Scottie Weiss, 2 X world champion, won the first live race event in Virginia. Jeremiah Bishop was competing there as well. I guess there are many pro riders you need to inform that they are only involved with a video game, and that it is not racing.
    Nothing you've said addresses what I said. It just gives two examples of people riding their bike in a video game.

    Scottie is a real bike racer, and I've raced him in real bike races in which you're not in your living room. And him playing Zwift doesn't negate the "video game in your living room" actuality. And he's a gran-fondo world champion, which is not the same thing. He's a very good rider. He's a past elite national champion-level rider. He is not a world-class or world champion rider. And he's not relevant to the discussion.

    Think closely about your last sentence for a second: I need to inform pro riders that they're not racing a video game. Do I really? Is their professional contract contingent upon their video game palmares, or their actual race results? Marinate on that a bit and get back to me about pros and their racing versus their riding in their basements on Zwift.
    Last edited by pedalbiker; 03-12-2017 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    I'm going out on a limb here and guess that you've never tried Zwift, let alone entered a Zwift race?

    While you are certainly welcome to have an opinion about things you know very little about and have zero experience with, I'm also welcome to discount that opinion for lack of credibility.
    I've used Zwift a bit over the last two winters when outside conditions necessitated so and I've lined up for the "ZTR A races" a dozen plus times. It's a workout on my rollers in my basement. It is not, in any sense of the word, a real bike race. I've even been "dropped" a few times from the zwift "races", despite being a nationally competitive cat 1 who rarely gets dropped in real races. Yet still nothing to do with an actual bike race.

    So now that your foot is pretty well lodged in your mouth, I'll retort: have you ever done a real bike race? What about zwift is the same?
    Last edited by pedalbiker; 03-12-2017 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinMan View Post
    Migen21, let them be the last to figure it out. Their loss.
    I actually race bikes, so how is anything that pertains to Zwift a loss? It's almost spring and time for Zwift's annual participation nose-dive. A lot of us are losing out, huh?

    It's really comical to see a few delusional Zwift heros emerge from their basements after a winter of "ripping up the Zwift races" and get promptly shelled on the first real effort of the day. They come around in a few weeks of actual group and race efforts, but still, it's funny the initial reactions.

  6. #56
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    You are showing your lack of knoweldge of the platform.

    Zwift isn't a US only thing - In fact in my experience there are a lot more participants from outside of the US than there are inside - While participation may go down some as the northern hemisphere spring arrives, it's fall in the southern hemisphere, and South America, Africa and New Zealand and Austrailia are very well represented.

    I would be interested in seeing you jump on Zwift and 'bury' some of those A guys - I think you'd be suprised at how strong racers are - There are quite a few professional rides, as well as strong Cat 1/2 on there - they are fairly well known and more and more of them are showing up on ZwiftPower.com and ZwiftRankings.com.

    And I guess you missed Matthew Hayman training for six weeks in Zwift just prior to winning Paris-Roubaix last year?

  7. #57
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    I like Zwift, it's better than the Spinervals videos I used to use and it has definitely helped in keeping me pedaling during the winter. I know a couple of pros who use it as well and I get a kick out of being able to see how I (woefully) match up on equal terms, but that's as far as I go with it.

    Personally, I find the whole racing aspect a bit silly given some of the blatant hacking I witness on there. As a former hardcore Counter-strike player, I view it with the same 'whatever' goggles; I'm not being paid and it's just a video game.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    You are showing your lack of knoweldge of the platform.

    Zwift isn't a US only thing - In fact in my experience there are a lot more participants from outside of the US than there are inside - While participation may go down some as the northern hemisphere spring arrives, it's fall in the southern hemisphere, and South America, Africa and New Zealand and Austrailia are very well represented.

    I would be interested in seeing you jump on Zwift and 'bury' some of those A guys - I think you'd be suprised at how strong racers are - There are quite a few professional rides, as well as strong Cat 1/2 on there - they are fairly well known and more and more of them are showing up on ZwiftPower.com and ZwiftRankings.com.

    And I guess you missed Matthew Hayman training for six weeks in Zwift just prior to winning Paris-Roubaix last year?
    In what way am I showing a lack of knowledge? At what point did I address anything internationally related? You're just peddling bullshit now that you can't fall back on your "arguing what you don't know" spill.

    I see you didn't answer my question about real racing. TELLING.

    What are you talking about burying anything? I said I actually got dropped in Zwift (and once on a downhill!!), which rarely happens in real races. Surprised by how strong pros and cat 1/2s are? On a video game? WTF would I do that when I can actually race them in a real race that they've been training for?

    No, I didn't miss it. But hey, GREAT point! He got in a good six weeks of training so that he could ride in a real race.

    Nice example.

    Go back and read my post a few times before you respond. You seem to enjoy making up completely unrelated tangents and using them to ruin your own weak arguments. Or maybe actually answer some of the questions I'm positing since I've done you the common courtesy of answering yours.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post
    I like Zwift, it's better than the Spinervals videos
    Wait, better than Coach Troy?!!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalbiker View Post
    Wait, better than Coach Troy?!!
    Lol, gimme a break. As a newbie it offered me the lowest 'cost of entry' at the time. Now I'm all cool and sh!t with a real laptop, trainer and screen, ready to pwn n00bs on virtual streets.
    Last edited by Wetworks; 03-13-2017 at 04:40 AM.

  11. #61
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    Wow, so many questions... In general is it necessary to be such a dick when you race or is that optional? Some people like Zwift and they like the racing aspect of it. Are actual outdoor racers all so thin-skinned that they have to post multiple times on a Zwift thread to make sure that no one takes it seriously and everyone understands how much more serious racing outdoors is?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
    Wow, so many questions... In general is it necessary to be such a dick when you race or is that optional? Some people like Zwift and they like the racing aspect of it. Are actual outdoor racers all so thin-skinned that they have to post multiple times on a Zwift thread to make sure that no one takes it seriously and everyone understands how much more serious racing outdoors is?
    Oh, I see you don't understand how a message board works.

    You see generally, on a message board, there's some type of question or assertion to which replies are expected and given. Discourse ensues and the board is populated with a number of discussions that others read and choose to participate in or not.

    You have chosen to participate, yet your comments suggest a slight ineptitude at understanding said participation. So, I hope this clears it up for you a bit and you can carry on enjoying the discussion.

  13. #63
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    So not a requirement, it's a choice. Got it.

  14. #64
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    I've done exactly one Zwift race (they rarely line up with my schedule or my intentions for a given day). I've done more than a couple non-virtualized races.

    The Zwift "race" was a very solid workout, but it didn't compare to an actual race. I could bury my head in the effort and not worry about crashing anyone. I didn't have to worry about bike handling skills at all. The pavement never changes from smooth. There's not a surge out of every turn as riders with varying corning abilities open and close gaps. I didn't have to worry about avoiding being guttered in a sprint. No wind. The rain doesn't seem to get me wet or cold. I could go on, but you get the point. The vast majority of the dynamics that apply in the real world are non-players. Basically everything boils down to w/kg (mainly FTP) and the occasional peak power spike. That's racing in the context of this virtual world, but it isn't the same as an actual road race.

    Pro riders join up mainly because their teams demand social media presence and it helps kill trainer hours. It provides stimulus that they might not otherwise get on the trainer, but very, very few take it "seriously"- especially when getting pipped at the line by a Cat6 from Ohio.

    Manufacturers got on board because they believe it may help move a few units. Having someone riding around on a virtual representation of their bike with a kit pimping their brand to a worldwide, targeted audience for next to nothing? That's a no brainer.

    Zwift is a quantum leap forward in indoor training, and it's the driving force in the sector of the industry. No question. It also can lead to off-season peaking if you don't watch it, which can ruin the early part of the season (ask me how I know). I'm a huge fan, and I don't use the vast majority of the social networking functionality of the platform (I have friends that do, though). Even Richmond beats the hell out of another rotation of my sizeable WCP DVD collection.

    Zwift racing is it's own thing, just like Goldsprints are. It's a form of competition. However, nobody in their right mind would claim Goldsprints are the same thing as track racing- it's not meant to be.

    Great strides have been made to weed out the cheaters in everyday Zwift racing, but there's a lot of them still in there. Unless you tied in smart scales, segregated the methods of power measurement/trainer styles, and put some serious analytics in there to catch data tampering, you are going to have that sort of thing. Sorry. You can do it for small events, but at the end of the day it matters less than an office park crit in Southern California. There's no real risk. It's all ones and zeroes. WADA isn't going to assume oversight. It's forgotten tomorrow (or in the next hour) when the next race happens.

    If it makes you happy, do it until your garage drain overflows with sweat and your heart explodes. I prefer the real world, with all of its dynamics and variability. As soon as the ice and snow clear from the pavement (and probably a week or two before), I'll abandon Zwift again for six months or so. Dust will coat my trainer until I either break my collarbone again or winter returns. I don't get enthusiastic about returning to the trainer. Zwift just makes it more bearable.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post

    If it makes you happy, do it until your garage drain overflows with sweat and your heart explodes. I prefer the real world, with all of its dynamics and variability. As soon as the ice and snow clear from the pavement (and probably a week or two before), I'll abandon Zwift again for six months or so. Dust will coat my trainer until I either break my collarbone again or winter returns. I don't get enthusiastic about returning to the trainer. Zwift just makes it more bearable.
    I couldn't agree more. I've done Zwift this winter and "enjoyed" it because it makes time on the trainer go by faster. Give me the outdoors anytime though.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
    So not a requirement, it's a choice. Got it.
    Clearly this is yet another thing that is way over your head, Dave. But hey, I'm glad you keep posting. Maybe you'll finally learn something one of these days.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalbiker View Post
    It's really comical to see a few delusional Zwift heros emerge from their basements after a winter of "ripping up the Zwift races" and get promptly shelled on the first real effort of the day. They come around in a few weeks of actual group and race efforts, but still, it's funny the initial reactions.
    So you in your world, people who come out of their basements in the winter having had a full offseason of Zwift Racing and training are going to get dropped by the people who don't do that?

    Got it.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    So you in your world, people who come out of their basements in the winter having had a full offseason of Zwift Racing and training are going to get dropped by the people who don't do that?

    Got it.
    Actually, most "serious" racers (relative term) I know don't spend time on Zwift. They're doing structured intervals that the Zwift stimuli can often distract from. In my world, a lot of the "serious" racers are out riding fat bikes or cross-country skiing or in the gym lifting weights to build a wider base of fitness than they would get from Zwift. With a structured approach, they arrive at the riding season fresher and in better form than if they'd spent the winter flailing away in virtual races. They crush the crap out of me, because I suck and I spend my time chasing random riders from Singapore on Zwift or going for a short-lived green jersey instead of doing the structured intervals I'm supposed to do. Even when I have that screen in front of me flashing like a cop car, I still get distracted because I'm mentally weak.

    Zwift didn't revolutionize training. Zwift revolutionized training distractions, making indoor training more bearable for a wider section of the populace, which makes them more likely to ride a trainer more than a couple times before they put it on craigslist. If the difference it makes is them exercising during the off-season instead of sitting on the couch, then their fitness will likely improve. However, don't ignore the negatives that come with the platform and how a lot of people interact with it. Everyone has peaks and valleys in their fitness, and you don't want to hit the season's peak a month before the season even starts.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    Actually, most "serious" racers (relative term) I know don't spend time on Zwift. They're doing structured intervals that the Zwift stimuli can often distract from. In my world, a lot of the "serious" racers are out riding fat bikes or cross-country skiing or in the gym lifting weights to build a wider base of fitness than they would get from Zwift. With a structured approach, they arrive at the riding season fresher and in better form than if they'd spent the winter flailing away in virtual races. They crush the crap out of me, because I suck and I spend my time chasing random riders from Singapore on Zwift or going for a short-lived green jersey instead of doing the structured intervals I'm supposed to do. Even when I have that screen in front of me flashing like a cop car, I still get distracted because I'm mentally weak.

    Zwift didn't revolutionize training. Zwift revolutionized training distractions, making indoor training more bearable for a wider section of the populace, which makes them more likely to ride a trainer more than a couple times before they put it on craigslist. If the difference it makes is them exercising during the off-season instead of sitting on the couch, then their fitness will likely improve. However, don't ignore the negatives that come with the platform and how a lot of people interact with it. Everyone has peaks and valleys in their fitness, and you don't want to hit the season's peak a month before the season even starts.
    I would imagine that the majority of Zwift users probably do not consider themselves 'serious' racers - or even 'racers' for that matter. - I'm not even sure I know what 'serious' means in this context - I know a dozen or so people who race in Cat5 through Cat 3 local road and crit races - and one or two who are Cat1/2. I only know one guy who would probably say 'yes' if I asked if he was a "serious racer" (he travels to quite a few regional and national track racing events). Every single one of them uses Zwift for various things - from workouts, to recovery rides, and even entering races as a training ride alternative.

    I'm not sure what you mean by Zwift being distracting - strucutured workouts are not only feasible, but it's one of the three main uses for Zwift - Strucutured workouts are really all I do with it - along with an occasional group ride - I'm not really competitive enough to do much racing, but occasionally enter a "C" race just for fun.

    Some examples of structured workouts.







    This is a Strava Power Zone Distrubution graph after a 'targeted' threshold workout.



    There are three main things you can do in Zwift

    "Events" -- Either casual paced group rides - or competitive race events.
    "Workouts" -- There are dozens included - including workout plans - and you can import and create your own with the editor - or just create them in a text editor (.xml files)
    "Just Riding Along" - just pick a route and get yourself in a recovery ride, or go for some sprints or KOM jerseys, etc...

    No, it's not the same as riding outside
    No, it's not better than riding outside (in a general sense - although you can get much better focus in workouts without traffic/lights, etc...)
    Yes, it's better than staring outside longing for spring when the cold, dark winter sets in (for us in the cold dark north)

    This is my second winter using Zwift - I started a 14 week training block back in December - As of Saturday, my FTP is 40 points higher now than it was last September after riding outdoors all summer.

  20. #70
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    Zwift level 25, been in since the Beta. Yes, there are tons of cheaters in the races (its like the 2000 TdF basically) and the jerseys are often held by "fliers" which is Zwift talk for the weight dopers and people with Fisher-Price smart trainers that have them warping around the map at 4-5 w/kg despite Heart Rates under 100 bpm. So I must be mad or about to quit right?

    Nope, its too damn useful. I ride solo 95% of the time on Zwift doing my thing. But I like having others around, I like have the options to "race" to be able to push myself any night of the week. Sure I am getting "beat" by some riders who are barely C riders IRL, but that's their downfall not mine. Let them pretend to their friends they are fast- the road season will sort them out quickly.

    The structured workouts are good, and the FTP testing is very handy (the repeat-ability is outstanding), and its only $10 a month. Its SO much better than the other options, its not even funny. Yes, I really wish Zwift tried to address the cheating more than it does currently- but I also feel that way about USA Cycling. . .


  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Mr Grumpy,

    Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.

    I've heard similar comments from people who were humbled the first time they joined a race. The first time I rode in one I rode about 30 watts above my FTP for over an hour. I have never pushed myself that hard on a bike outside, even on a really long hard climb.

    I have exactly ZERO interest in lining up with a bunch of CAT 5's and age groupers outdoors. NONE. But racing in Zwift is fun, and it's HARD, and I don't have to worry about weather, or idiots clipping a wheel, or overcooking a turn.

    MMsRepBike,

    I think that within the restriction of using a power trainer or real power meter (i.e. vritual "ZPower" would normally exclude you from most race results), the body weight setting in Zwift is the only real form of cheating. This is a tricky one to overcome.
    Of course he as that's why he's grumpy. His watts/kg was the best he's ever had and some kids on cruiser spanked him in the virtual race.

    I heard if you have virtual bike with disk brakes you can descend the hill faster and safer.
    It's a fire road.............
    I'm on a road bike..........

    They have enough in common to blast down it.

  22. #72
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    Zwift does make riding the trainer more interesting than Trainerroad or the like, but I'd rather do structured intervals on Trainerroad than Zwift. Take a Zwift race result seriously though? No way. That would be like taking Strava leaderboards seriously.

  23. #73
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    I've done a little bit of everything on Zwift. Solo, group rides, races and such.
    I've even done two indoor centuries that were 5.5 hours on the bike.

    Currently, I use it for my distraction while using TrainerRoad overlayed for my workouts and training plan.

    I enjoy the races because they can push you to work harder than you might otherwise for an indoor ride. I don't care about cheaters or finishing positions. I only review my own results to see how my W/Kg and power were during the event.

    People should back off the "all or nothing"... it's good or bad viewpoint. Everyone has different needs, goals and intentions for riding in Zwift. Don't knock their usage unless it has some negative impact on yours.

    Considering the virtual world that exists, that impact is little to absolutely nothing... so lighten the hell up about it is my point.

    It's a great tool to be used as the rider chooses. And like any tool, it can be used well or poorly. Use it for what you need and let the other stuff slide.

  24. #74
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    All my friends that use Zwift say "it's a great workout"...tool/program/etc.

    I've never heard any of them say or refer to themselves as "racers".

    I think we can all make that distinction.

    Otherwise I'm a Tennis Player because I've played it against my kids on a Nintendo Wii.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb View Post
    Zwift does make riding the trainer more interesting than Trainerroad or the like, but I'd rather do structured intervals on Trainerroad than Zwift. Take a Zwift race result seriously though? No way. That would be like taking Strava leaderboards seriously.
    TrainerRoad is a good program, and has a more "serious" vibe to it. I got good results out of it for two seasons. I just recently canceled my subscription because I just wasn't using it much since Zwift workouts came along. Nowadays I split my indoor rides between Zwift and CVT.

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