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  1. #101
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    Why can't Zwift races just be Zwift races? Why do they have to match up to an outdoor race to be considered a race? It's still competition, but anyone with half a brain (or maybe even less) knows it's not the same as a real live race in the great outdoors. Seems like much ado about nothing if you ask me. If you like it, do it and enjoy it. If not, wait for the snow to melt, hop on your fatbike, or stare at the wall on the trainer...who really cares?

  2. #102
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    I think the title of the thread is what's throwing some people off. Particularly the words, "Zwift", "Racing" and "serious".


  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by arai_speed View Post
    I think the title of the thread is what's throwing some people off. Particularly the words, "Zwift", "Racing" and "serious".

    yes they don't belong in the same sentence

  4. #104
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    Indoor racing.

    Too old to ride plastic

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Would you rather go back to arguing about disc brakes?

    Seriously acl, what do you expect? Its winter, many of us have snow and ice, and there aren't a whole lot of other threads going on.

    In another month or so, we will have put away our trainers and we can get back to standard summer repeat threads
    not touching disc brakes. Swiftsolo has that market covered. who the hell wants to hear him rehashing

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    not touching disc brakes. Swiftsolo has that market covered. who the hell wants to hear him rehashing
    So we have provided a much needed respite from that. You are welcome

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post
    Why can't Zwift races just be Zwift races? Why do they have to match up to an outdoor race to be considered a race? It's still competition, but anyone with half a brain (or maybe even less) knows it's not the same as a real live race in the great outdoors. Seems like much ado about nothing if you ask me. If you like it, do it and enjoy it. If not, wait for the snow to melt, hop on your fatbike, or stare at the wall on the trainer...who really cares?
    Exactly. I find the zwift races put me in a similar mindset to a real race, its a lot more complex than just riding the trainer, or doing a specific workout, and they are hard, its fun.
    I see nothing wrong with anyone taking it seriously, and zwift will only improve over time. Take a look at the motorsports sim world and how far that has come.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmachan View Post
    Exactly. I find the zwift races put me in a similar mindset to a real race, its a lot more complex than just riding the trainer, or doing a specific workout, and they are hard, its fun.
    I see nothing wrong with anyone taking it seriously, and zwift will only improve over time. Take a look at the motorsports sim world and how far that has come.
    The flight simulation and the F1 simulation are fun. But it would be naive to think that just because you're an ace in some X-sim, you're an ace pilot in an F18. I won't even mention about motorcycle sim. Sim games are fun, but they still have a long way to go. Zwift gives a good workout, just like any trainer session could. But it would be naive to think that one would be able to take a fast corner down a twisy at 35-40 mph in a real race. And this is what we mean by "racing".

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    The flight simulation and the F1 simulation are fun. But it would be naive to think that just because you're an ace in some X-sim, you're an ace pilot in an F18. I won't even mention about motorcycle sim. Sim games are fun, but they still have a long way to go. Zwift gives a good workout, just like any trainer session could. But it would be naive to think that one would be able to take a fast corner down a twisy at 35-40 mph in a real race. And this is what we mean by "racing".
    I think the aim of Zwift is to be immersive from the "workout" point of view, vs total simulation of riding a bike. I find the races to be pretty good workouts, and keep me very immersed in the "race", vs blindly following a watt goal or HR goal.
    Motorsports simulation, specifically iracing, has changed sim realism significantly, in the last few years.
    There are several actual pros out there that came directly from sims, vs real racing.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmachan View Post
    I think the aim of Zwift is to be immersive from the "workout" point of view, vs total simulation of riding a bike. I find the races to be pretty good workouts, and keep me very immersed in the "race", vs blindly following a watt goal or HR goal.
    Motorsports simulation, specifically iracing, has changed sim realism significantly, in the last few years.
    There are several actual pros out there that came directly from sims, vs real racing.
    How do these people adjust the G forces involved in racing and the heat/elements of a race car.. Sure I was good at Gran Turismo back in the day...but as someone who tracked his car & SCCA autocrosses... I can't imagine the level up in open wheel racing..let only F1.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post
    How do these people adjust the G forces involved in racing and the heat/elements of a race car.. Sure I was good at Gran Turismo back in the day...but as someone who tracked his car & SCCA autocrosses... I can't imagine the level up in open wheel racing..let only F1.
    Obviously you don't get the forces/heat...

    However, in iracing for example, they laser map the tracks, and they measure the actual cars, getting all CAD data from the manufacturer, etc.
    As an example, I race cars, one of the cars I race is in iracing, and one of the tracks I race on is also in the sim. I can tell you, it is very accurate, all the same bumps are there, they affect the car the same way, the real setups we use on the car have the same affect, etc.
    This isn't Gran Turismo, and thats my point, Zwift is like Gran Turismo back in the day, it can only get better.

  12. #112
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    Yes. Iracing is great. I was a beta tester for years in their transition from Papyrus to Iracing. I even won the first official series championship in the old Solstice just before they opened the pay service. I largely quit serious sim racing around 2008 to refocus on cycling (I still dabble in Dirt Rally from time to time), but those were some of the best hours I have spend on a PC with some great people.

    They came from humble beginnings in the original Indycar Racing when we all used a keyboard for controls. It all progressed to super high end force feedback steering and amazing pedal options. The skills learned there are real and worthwhile for those that use it to learn and transition into real racing.

    I haven't raced in years, but the decade plus that I spent on the sims directly translated to real control when I did some autocross racing around the same time. The actions all transfer even though there are tangible differences.

    Zwift may not be shooting to be the ultimate cycling simulator like Iracing is to real auto racing. But the fitness and some of the tactics will transfer to real cycling racing and be beneficial for some people.

    Zwift and real racing will always be somewhat different and that is fine. Take each one for what they are worth and use them to their fullest.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    Zwift and real racing will always be somewhat different and that is fine. Take each one for what they are worth and use them to their fullest.
    That pretty much sums it up.

    Zwift has been a quantum leap forward for trainer time distraction/motivation. Hopefully it will continue to get better, although they're limited by what the hardware manufacturers put out that they can incorporate into their simulations. Am I going to want to wear 3D goggles while sweating on a trainer? Nope. I'd love to see a steering turntable for the front wheel introduced that could provide directional control. At a certain point, there's only so much they can do with the platform as it sits before they really start making it into a Mario Cart farce. Incremental refinements and regular course updates are probably what we're going to see for the foreseeable future, and I'm fine with that.

    I have about a month of Zwift left before I'm back on pavement. You can already see online numbers dropping as the northern hemisphere starts warming and the southern starts cooling. I assume more temperate weather means people are actually riding outside (gasp!), and we'll soon see threads about "IRL Racing- It's getting kinda serious..."

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
    Thankfully there's absolutely no way to cheat in real world races!
    This literally made me laugh out loud!

  15. #115
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    Zwift racing = real bike racing

    like

    Halo = real wartime battles

  16. #116
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    Been doing a good bit of Zwift of late. Loving the ''racing''. I can pretty much find a suitable ''race'' every other time I use it. It's still in it's infancy, and there are some fliers and some people who don't seem to understand how to work together and treat races like individual time trials. I don't think this is the same as doing real world racing, but there are not real world races at 8:30 at night in my town etc.

    I'll be sticking with Zwift, and doing races whenever available.

    As for cheaters. It's just like cheating in any game. If you tweak you set up, I don't care. If you out and out cheat and ride twice as fast as everyone else, then you're just cheating yourself out of the ''race'' aspect of it.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNS1938 View Post
    It's still in it's infancy...
    I'd say it's at least in its early teens, development-wise, in the software world. What we're seeing now is what it will likely be, allowing for a natural, progressive evolution over time. Certain aspects will likely evolve as hardware technology advances, but the capabilities of the platform are constrained by what hardware is commonly available/in use. In a niche market, further segmenting your potential audience with features that only a small percentage can use doesn't make sense financially.

    Racing? They'll eventually find a happy medium and that will become the new standard for Zwift races. Not anything close to a real race, but valid in its own environment in terms of authentication and validation. We're just not quite there yet. We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.
    Maybe this is where Zwift goes next with making racing more real. Virtual doping and virtual drugs tests that you have to evade. Maybe even virtual trips to visit Dr. Ferrari. I like it

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    Maybe this is where Zwift goes next with making racing more real. Virtual doping and virtual drugs tests that you have to evade. Maybe even virtual trips to visit Dr. Ferrari. I like it
    Ha, additional "altitude camps in Tenerife with Ferrari" available for an extra $10 a month. Could be huge!

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Mike View Post
    I'd say it's at least in its early teens, development-wise, in the software world. What we're seeing now is what it will likely be, allowing for a natural, progressive evolution over time. Certain aspects will likely evolve as hardware technology advances, but the capabilities of the platform are constrained by what hardware is commonly available/in use. In a niche market, further segmenting your potential audience with features that only a small percentage can use doesn't make sense financially.

    Racing? They'll eventually find a happy medium and that will become the new standard for Zwift races. Not anything close to a real race, but valid in its own environment in terms of authentication and validation. We're just not quite there yet. We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.
    I say infancy because there is strong talk about complete trainer bikes in the near future. I presume that'll add steering. Maybe give road feel to more than just Neo riders etc.

    Also the vagueness of the classes. Every race I've done has been a hammerfest. Closer ranked riders and more effective drafting could encourage/necessitate bunches forming etc, more akin to on the road. Often out of 30 riders, there are 10-12 "bunches" of a coupe of riders.

    Regardless, it blows away a basic trainer and is where I'll be training and "racing" for a while at least

  21. #121
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    Heres my honest thought, zwift is a ticket to burnout.

    I am trying to restrain myself from spending the time on the kickr and swift. I am limiting myself to 2 zwift sessions a week.

    Last night i put in 30 real miles, and I felt so much better. 75% of the ride was in the dark. I know my miles will take a dip this year, but i am trying to better balance the miles on zwift and outdoors.

  22. #122
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    Everyone is different Pitt.

    I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.

    Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Everyone is different Pitt.

    I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.

    Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.
    I feel the same. I am really motivated right now, Between using Zwift and CVT this winter 4-5 days a week I am in the best shape I have ever been at the start of the season. It also helped me drop 13lbs (so far) Soon, I be doing outdoor rides whenever possible, but if the weather is bad, I will have no issue riding in the basement

  24. #124
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    it's like racing in a spin-class. it may be exercise, it may have training applications but its not riding a bike

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Everyone is different Pitt.

    I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.

    Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.
    I know everyone is different, that being said i have about 2 years with some form virtual training option(cvt, trainerroad, zwift) i too felt an enormous burst of results off the bat (within the first 3 to 5 months), lowered weight greater power, better cardio.

    The bubble burst for me this year. I would do 4 to 5 days of virtual training in a row, say to myself saturday and sunday I am going to get out there and kill it. But i never got out there, my body was starting to shut down. Until i had a full blown burn-out.

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