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Gravel Racing

56K views 278 replies 19 participants last post by  Lookbiker 
#1 ·
The old Quiver Killers thread seems to be having some problems. I am finally at peace with my road fleet and now looking to make some progress on my gravel grinder project/dream. I flirted with adding a TT bike or CX bike, but this is probably what I would enjoy more and get a lot more use out of. I have whittled my bikes to check out list down to about 5 potential contenders. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on any of these, especially if you have ridden them in a gravel event:

1) 2018 Specialized Diverge Sport or Comp

2.) 2018 Salsa Warbird Apex or Ultegra

3.) Niner RLT RDO w 105

4. 2018 Norco Search XR Carbon

5. Open U.P.

As it stands right now, I like the Warbird and Diverge most, all things considered. They both check all of my boxes and offer a reasonably priced lineup with different component options plus look good. Both bikes have reviewed well and/or been used by scores of people in countless gravel events. Any thoughts?

For your viewing enjoyment (or at least for mine):



Gravel Mob 2017 – Peloton Presents – Gravel Mob
 
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#147 · (Edited)
I am pretty firm on my decision that I am going to run 2x instead of 1x. I just need to figure out what I want the gearing to look like. I also think I might move to Di2 on my primary road and gravel bikes. All of this makes the Search XR frameset a more likely purchase than the Apex complete. More goodies to look at:

 
#148 ·
I am pretty firm on my decision that I am going to run 2x instead of 1x. I just need to figure out what I want the gearing to look like. I also think I might move to Di2 on my primary road and gravel bikes. All of this makes the Search XR frameset a more likely purchase than the Apex complete. More goodies to look at:

In bold. Minimalism versus broader range of function. I have owned both. Horses for courses. Overall, I prefer 2 rings and have enjoyed 3 rings as well. For flat land riding, 1 ring will do... but...agree even on my fast road bike, I still prefer 2 rings and stay on the big ring mostly enjoying tighter spacing in back. For a dirt road bike with some climbing, agree. Bottom line with 2 rings is....you get broader range of gear inches for tighter gear spacing with very little weight penalty and increase in complexity. I get the 1x thing but downside including higher cross chain angles has to be considered.
 
#149 · (Edited)
I stopped by the shop after work today. Availability of the Carbon XR was zero, so that pretty much sealed the deal. I had them order the Force 1 build. It should be here on Friday.

I chose the built bike because it comes with a decent set of 650b wheels, which I would have bought anyway. I also wanted to give the 1X setup a try, and since some of the 8000 series Di2 components are not available yet, getting it built with the Force-1 will give me a bike I can ride, as opposed to one that's sitting on the work stand waiting for components.

I'm going to leave everything stock except the seat for now. That will get changed out to a Shimano Pro Stealth.

The bike comse with an Easton bar that I'm not familiar with. I do know I want some flare on these bars (the Easton bar does have some). If these don't suit me I will likely swap them out for a set of Salsas Cowbell 2, which have a mild flare to them. These were stock on the warbird and I really like the feel of them.

COWBELL 2 BAR | Salsa Cycles | Salsa Cycles


I already have two sets of 700c wheels I can use on this bike (with an endcap conversion).

One set is a DT350 hub set with HED Belgium Plus rims (28/28)

The other set is a stock set of HED Ardennes I got on sale last spring at Competitive Cyclist.

Both are tubeless compatible. I'll put a set of Gravel Kings (40mm) on the Belgiums and a set of Compass Barlow Pass on the Ardennes.

Those combined with the aggressive Maxxis Tread Lite 2.1's that come on the bike will give me all of the wheel and tire options I need (for now ).
 
#150 ·
I stopped by the shop after work today. Availability of the Carbon XR was zero, so that pretty much sealed the deal. I had them order the Force 1 build. It should be here on Friday.

I chose the built bike because it comes with a decent set of 650b wheels, which I would have bought anyway, and it's something I would have purchased anyway. I also wanted to give the 1X setup a try, and since some of the 8000 series Di2 components are not available yet, getting it built with the Force-1 will give me a bike I can ride, as opposed to one that's sitting on the work stand waiting for components.

I'm going to leave everything stock except the seat for now. That will get changed out to a Shimano Pro Stealth.

The bike comse with an Easton bar that I'm not familiar with. I do know I want some flare on these bars (the Easton bar does have some). If these don't suit me I will likely swap them out for a set of Salsas Cowbell 2, which have a mild flare to them. These were stock on the warbird and I really like the feel of them.

COWBELL 2 BAR | Salsa Cycles | Salsa Cycles

It's a mild flare and a shallow drop, and I think ideal for my needs for this bike.

I already have two sets of 700c wheels I can use on this bike (with an endcap conversion.

One set is a DT350 hub set with HED Belgium Plus rims (28/28)

The other set is a stock set of HED Ardennes I got on sale last spring at Competitive Cyclist.

Both are tubeless compatible. I'll put a set of Gravel Kings (40mm) on the Belgiums and a set of Compass Barlow Pass on the Ardennes.

Those combined with the aggressive Maxxis Tread Lite 2.1's that come on the bike will give me all of the wheel and tire options I need (for now ).
That sounds awesome. I can’t wait to see it and read your thoughts on the bike. I started on a potential build list last night. I still need to gather more info about the components I am considering though.
 
#153 ·
I am down to either following Migen's lead and getting a complete Apex equipped Search XR that I can slowly replace parts on while riding or starting with the Search XR frameset and then taking my time to build up a gravel dream bike of sorts. I would just enjoy my road bikes until my gravel ride is complete if I go that route. Either way, I think my build list will look something like this:


Frame: Search XR Frameset

Drivetrain: Shimano Ultegra Di2 R-8070 or mechanical Ultegra.

Cransket: not sure yet, but it will be 2x and climbing friendly gearing will carry the day. Lots of climbing gears in the back.

Wheels: Clement Ushuaia Wheels

Bars: Not sure, but I want to give this flared thing a shot

Seatpost and Stem: Ritchey or Zipp are typically my go to.

Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth or Specialized Power

Tires: My plan is for there to eventually be a number of sets, but I will probably start with a set of WTBs or Panaracers.

That should be a solid setup when all is said and done. I am just not convinced the extra $1000 is worth it to get the complete bike if I am just going to take that stuff off anyway. I can sell it on eBay or on here, but I'm not convinced the money I will get for Apex Hydro, etc. will really be worth the effort. Still mulling this part over.

I plan to get into the shop for a fit session in the next week or so and then go from there.
 
#154 · (Edited)
Word up since you are heading into a fitting. Like the contentious (shouldn't have been) Madone thread where locked into an integrated handlebar, if choosing a dirt specific drop bar, this has a profound effect on what geometry you choose in term of stack and reach. You may know this but the hook position of a dirt drop is more the nominal riding positon and as a result, many choose a bit more upright geometry compared to road bike fit.

In your shoes, likely what I would do is try to find Guitar Ted's contact information...with maybe a dirt drop handlebar you are leaning toward. Provide the stack and reach of your road bike and ask him for a target stack and reach based upon riding a dirt drop. He is both extremely knowledgable and a hellova nice guy and I am sure he would share his thoughts as an expert. You can compare his observations with your fitter...again your fit affected by choice of handlebar...so be sure to mention this to your fitter. My thoughts if dropping 3 large on a new gravel bike.
 
#156 ·
Ran across this thread when searching for info on gravel bikes. Lots of good dialogue and info here. Its turned me on to the Norco Search (XR) and I'm kinda digging it.

However, I wanted to drop this little nugget into the mix too. I REALLY like the geo numbers on this bike but cannot determine how I'd get one sent into the US?

Genesis Datum
Datum-30 | Datum | Adventure Bikes | Genesis Bikes

Blog post with some details about its development
'Un-gravelling' the new Datum | Blog | Genesis Bikes

FWIW, I'm looking for a gravel bike that is on the more racey end of the spectrum. I'd prefer 72* HTA, Shorter CS (under 425), and with room for 40c tires at least. Historically the 3T Exploro has been, by far, my top choice. However, I just can't stomach the price tag.

These are the following candidates in the mix now:
-Norco Search XR (HTA is tad slack)
-Focus Paralane (very low BB)
-Canyon Endurance (w/ 2nd set of 650b wheels??)
-Genesis Datum (hard to get here)
-3T Exploro (too pricey)

Thanks
CJB
 
#157 ·
Welcome man! That’s really the whole point behind the thread, to give us a place to talk about this stuff and share information. A couple of things I can say is that I don’t believe the Endurace or Paralane will fit 650b wheels. They are more traditional endurance bikes than they are gravel bikes. If you want something close to that, but with room for 650b, take a look at the new Specialized Diverge. It’s basically a gravel version of the Roubaix. It was a finalist for me and a bike I still like a lot. There are plenty of reviews for it online as well.
 
#158 · (Edited)
Evans Cycles will probably ship you a Datum, but there will likely be some additional shipping costs involved. Email them and see what you can work out. At first glance, I am not sure the Datum will fit 40mm tires though. Make sure you double check that if it’s important to you. Again, I don’t think the Paralane and Endurace have the tire clearance you are looking for either. I think they are more in the 30mm-35mm range. Based on your criteria, the Raleigh Roker might be worth checking out too.
 
#163 ·
You are correct about a few of those bikes not coming in at my min tire size desire. I was quickly putting those options up from memory with some highlight notes in parenthesis. I think that with the bikes that wouldn't fit my tire widths, I'd not be opposed to having 2 sets of wheels 650/700 for it.

I've got a Cervelo Soloist and then a Surly Cross Check with custom disc tabs added. In a perfect world, I'd like to find a bike that would bridge both needs. I don't mind having a bit more "twitchy" gravel bike, and then a more muted roadie (I think). Good thing is that I don't have to get rid of either of these bikes. So if my experiment doesn't pan out then I can just set it up dedicated XYX and still have a legit road bike and GG in my stable.

re: Chiner clone Exploro
I plan to ride and race the crap out of the bike I get. I'm a tad leery of the chinese stuff for this kind of use.

Later,
CJB
 
#161 ·
I noticed the crankset on the Norco is a Quarq 'Power Ready" version.

I looked into this a bit (I normally use Stages PM's), and found that these are compatible with the 110BCD Quarq DZERO Spider Only PM (hidden bolt or non-hidden bolt versions).

These run about the same price as a Stages PM, so I'm pondering the option. Unfortunately, the shop tells me they are backordered until mid-January.

Anyone tried a DZERO PM? Willing to share impressions?
 
#164 ·
Just as a point of interest, one of the things that steered me away from the Warbird was the fact that it won't accept 650B wheels with wide (2.1" etc...) tires.

The chainstays are curved at the point where a 700C tire would be, so there is quite a bit of room there for a wide (44mm) tire, but the curve flattens out pretty dramatically as it gets closer to the center of the wheel. You could run a 650b, but not with a wide tire. I'd be guessing, but I suspect you'd be limited to 38mm or so, depending on the rim width and tire.

This was a bit of a revelation to me. I more or less assumed that any disc brake bike that accepted 700C would take a 650B and probably accept a wider tire, but this is not the case, at least not with all bikes. This is what eventually steered me back to Norco, which not only accepts 2.1" on 650b, it is actually spec'd with it in all sizes.
 
#165 ·
Re: the 3T Exploro. I got a few more details from the friend who had the frame fail.

I haven't seen this in person, so this is a second hand observation, but he told me that the thing has a really flaky seat post design. Apparently (assuming he wasn't kidding), the the bike actually comes with warning stickers on the frame near the seat post bolt.

The top tube in front of the seat post literally broke down the middle when he was tightening his seat post retainer bolt.

He said he had trouble with the seat post sliipping the entire time, and it was difficult to get the torque right on the bolt. He said he would tighten it using a calibrated torque wrench, then, on the first ride, the seatpost would slip down and when he checked the bolt it was literrally loose. It was a constant battle to keep the seat adjusted and not slipping. Eventually the retainer pocket where the bolt is just broke and popped through the top tube.

He tried to submit a warranty claim directly, but was rejected by 3T saying user error. Eventually the shop that sold it to him advocated on his behalf and he was able to get a warrantly. He said the new frame has been better... in his words ' so far so good', but he is not a happy 3T owner.

It's possible this was an isolated incident and that the new bike will be fine, but based on his experience, and the cost of the bike, I'll wait until they've worked out some of these issues before I jump on that bandwagon.
 
#167 ·
I got ya. As Migen’s post points out though, just make sure whatever you settle on can actually fit 650b wheels if that’s your plan. Some of these bikes will, some won’t fit them well.

Anybody have recommendations for 650b wheelsets?
 
#168 · (Edited)
Here's a bit on Boyd's new 650b gravel wheels:

Review: Boyd Jocassee Gravel 650b Carbon Wheelset - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience



They're pricey, but they seem like they could be ideal. They were actually built for gravel events. MasonxHunt have a budget alloy set coming out as well. Not much of a weight penalty and much cheaper.

https://www.boydcycling.com/shop/gravel-cx/jocassee-gravel-650b-front-wheel/

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/coll...ravel-road-trail-wheelset-1579g-24deep-25wide
 
#169 ·
The Boyd is the wheel I was going to go with if the Force 1 Search XR didn't come with the WTB I23's.

I'm not sure how much actual use I'm going to get out of the 650B wheels. If that turns out to be my main wheelset, I my get the Boyd's anyway.

FWIW, the WTB I23 Team gets pretty good reviews, and is much more affordable.
 
#171 ·
Your approach makes sense again. I may just get the Clement Ushaia for 700cc and the MasonxHunt for 650b to start and then if I love 650b setup, I can invest in the Boyd’s down the road. That way I end up with options at an affordable price point.
 
#172 · (Edited)
So I really am stuck on one thing here fellas. I can't make up my mind on whether it makes more sense to go with the Apex complete or just start with a frameset. I am 100% certain I want a 2x setup. I also prefer Shimano.

If I get the complete bike, while I still would probably end up switching out the SRAM 1X system, I would come away with what sounds like a fairly nice set of wheels (the 700cc version of the WTB i23 wheels) and tires (Clement MSO Xplor). That would negate the need to buy two sets like I planned to if I go the frameset route. I would only need to add a 650b setup at some point. I also would get a solid flared handlebar to start with. I would definitely be swapping out the brown bar tape and saddle too though. My guess is I could save even more money with the complete bike by going with a SRAM 2x setup instead of jumping over to Shimano. I could just find a set of shifters on ebay, get a crankset, maybe some cheapr deraileurs and call it a day. FWIW, I now actually think the green frameset could look really nice when set against in black components. If this bike had a different drivetrain, going this route would be a no-brainer, but it doesn't so...

If I start with the grey frameset, I get a blank canvas, but once I add a component group or even a decent wheelset or two, I am right near the price of the complete bike. That being said, I could get both the Hunt and Ushaiah wheels and two sets of tires that way and piece together a good hydro Ultegra or Ultegra Di2 groupset and still not do too bad. I'm just conflicted about which way to go. The downside to this route is I don't get to ride anything until I am finished building the bike. With the complete, I am riding the entire time I am in the process of upgrading, which is certainly appealing on some level. Any thoughts?
 
#173 · (Edited)
FWIW, I can probably get a set of Sram Force 22 Hydro shifters and brakes for around $500-$600 from Jenson USA or a similar shop or a set of Ultegra hydro for like $665. My guess is that I can find them for significantly cheaper if I keep searching. A Praxis Zayante crankset can usually be grabbed for $200-$240 and a Rotor Crankset can usually be found for $400 or so. Cassettes are easy to come by on the cheap and derailleurs aren't that bad either. Maybe the conversion from Sram 1x to 2x wouldn't be that bad and the most economical way to go???? There's also some good deals out there on the older hydro Di2 shifters. Still not sure which way to go....

wiggle.com | Shimano RS685 Hydraulic STI Brake/Shifter Set | Gear Levers And Shifters Road

SRAM Force 22 Disc Brake/Shifter | Jenson USA

https://praxiscycles.com/product/zayante-m30/

I could also get the original hydro Di2 shifters for like $380-$465:

Shimano R785 Di2 2x11 Speed STI Shifter | Chain Reaction Cycles

Shimano Di2 ST-R785 Hydro Levers | Jenson USA

https://www.merlincycles.com/shiman...F8uTRjvkJd6ZcA0kOOyvpNBMJYubMncxoCS0oQAvD_BwE
 
#174 · (Edited)
The more I look at might options, only two choices make sense.....

If I am going to go mechanical with 2x, I might as well take my time save up the extra money and go with this because I am going to end up spending roughly the same amount anyway:

Norco Bicycles

If I really want a 2x setup and want to go Di2 "at a discount/on the cheap," I should just build my dream gravel rig from scratch or start with the complete Apex model and just treat it as a frameset with handlebars, wheels, tires, stem, and seatpost included. I could then sell off what I can and upgrade from there. I am leaning hard toward the Di2 build I originally had in mind right now, but still need to determine whether to go with the frameset or Apex Complete. Frameset is winning in my head for some reason...


Edit: I think I have made up my mind. I am probably going with the frameset, Di2, Ushuaia 700c wheels and one of these sets of tires:

https://www.wtb.com/collections/gravel-cx/products/riddler-45c
https://grit.cx/reviews/2017/05/review-wtb-riddler-45c-tcs-light-tyres

https://www.wtb.com/collections/gravel-cx/products/resolute
Review: WTB Resolute 42 650b and 700c Tubeless Ready Tires - Gravel Cyclist: The Gravel Cycling Experience

Review: Panaracer GravelKing SK tyre | road.cc

I feel really good about that build. Feels worthwhile and exciting.
 
#175 ·
The Search looks like a cool bike. The geometry looks nice and stable (I love large BB drops for gravel), the frame has all of the right features and those are great wheels and tires. It's definitely towards the "racier" end of gravel bikes.

To me, the biggest benefit of 1x designs is the clutch RD and resulting reduced chain slap. Also, I've found clutch RD + narrow wide chainring pretty much prevents dropping your chain. The main benefit of a 2x setup is that it allows finer gradations in gearing. Dropping a chain on a 2x is more likely but still rare in my experience.
 
#176 ·
On my original Search Carbon (2015 non XR model), I could never get the Ultegra 6800 mechanical FD to shift quite right. I talked with the mechanics at the shop, and they had the same problems. They suggested it was probably due to a suboptimal pull angle on the FD cable coming off the bottom bracket. Changing the pin on the derailleur arm didn't make much difference.

When I got frustrated with this, I tried a couple of solutions. I tried a 1X solution using the Ultegra crankset, 42T Wolftooth narrow/wide chainring, and a XT RD with a larger cassette. I had to use the Wolftooth TanPan to compensate for the road shifters pull ratios. This worked, but it wasn't great, and I ended up just converting the bike to Ultegra Di2, which solved all of the problems related to shifting (I use Di2 on all of my other bikes).

With the 2X setups, I never had any trouble with dropping chains (the Search has a nice chain keeper on it), and I never saw any evidence of chain slap, but it was something that always worried me.

It will be interesting to ride this new bike with the Force 1 build. It will be a good opportunity to ride a real 1X setup (rather than a kluge), and my first time riding SRAM.

My worry about it is, I'm fairly cadence sensitive. On my road bikes my power band s between 82 and 95 RPM. I can go higher, but the HR goes up pretty fast. I can go higher, but at my cruising speed I like to be at about 85-90 RPM. I'm a little worried about the 1X setup in that way (large gaps). It will be interesting to see how well I adapt to this.

I'm quite prepared for the reality this experiment being a failure, and converting the bike to 2x Ultegra 8000 (probably Di2), but I'm going to give it a full season of riding before I decide.
 
#179 · (Edited)
I think this is my final build list:

Frame: Search XR

Drivetrain: Shimano Di2 Hydro (probably R785 Shifters and 8000 series derailleurs). 11/32 cassette

Wheels: Clement Ushuaia

Tires: Torn between Panaracer Gravel King SK and WTB Resolute. Leaning toward the Resolute

Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth

Crankset: Praxis Zayante 48/32

Handlebars: Undecided, but probably the Salsa Cowbell 2 or 3 or something similar.

Stem: Undecided, but down to Ritchey, WCS C220, Ritchey Superlogic, Zipp Service Course SL, or Zipp SL Speed

Seatpost: Undecided, but down to Ritchey WCS Carbon Link Flexlogic or Zipp SL Speed Seatpost

I am starting to love this bike already. I plan to start buying parts sometime after the holidays. Thank you for the recommendations and thoughts.
 
#181 ·
I think this is my final build list:

Frame: Search XR

Drivetrain: Shimano Di2 Hydro (probably R785 Shifters and 8000 series derailleurs).

Wheels: Clement Ushuaia

Tires: Torn between Panaracer Gravel King SK and WTB Resolute. Leaning toward the Resolute

Saddle: Shimano Pro Stealth

Handlebars: Undecided

Stem: Undecided, but down to Ritchey, WCS C220, Ritchey Superlogic, Zipp Service Course SL, or Zipp SL Speed

Seatpost: Undecided, but down to Ritchey WCS CArbon Link Flexlogic or Zipp SL Speed Seatpost

I am starting to love this bike already. I plan to start buying parts sometime after the holidays.
This looks great. That is almost identical to the build of my original search (it was 6870 Di2), all the way down to the Ritchey components (which are great!).

Do you do your own wrenching? Or are you going to have a shop build it?

I think you can't go wrong with either of those tires. I've become enamored with the gumwall aesthetic, so for me, between those two, i'd prefer the WTB. I personally chose the WTB ByWay for my 650b tire. I have a set of the 40mm Gravel King SK's and some Compass Barlow Pass as options as well.
 
#184 ·
@11spd,

When I put my bike together I chose a frameset that had a 10mm shorter reach and a 10mm higher stack than my roadbike. That was my thought after doing a lot of reading on the subject.

Not using the Cowbell (using the Satori bar), but I do understand what you mean about dirt-drops (widely flared bars) and having the bar height much higher so that you're hands are in the drops most of the time.

I do a lot of road riding with my gravel bike (I ride to the gravel/singletrack places), so my bars (in the drops) are only positioned about 10mm higher than my roadbike position.

Also, I am very comfortable with riding on the road and in the gravel in the drops; could be as my flexibility can handle it. However when I'm just exploring around on the gravel bike I mostly ride the hoods, so I can look around at the scenery. When the slopes head down, I ride the drops for the better control.
 
#185 · (Edited)
Specs for your Satori X handlebar are...drop = 116mm and reach 56mm.

Spec's for a conventional compact road bar are....drop = 125mm and reach 75mm.

By going 10mm shorter on reach you end up almost 30mm shorter cockpit compared to your road bike.

Net drop difference is about 20mm factoring in your 10mm taller stack with slightly less shallow Satori drop bar. If you ride in your hooks as a nominal position on the dirt you are riding almost 4 inches lower than the hoods on your road bike. That's quite a bit....for a 'standard' hammer position.

Hey, if you can hammer mile after mile on gravel 4 inches below your road bike hood position cool. No doubt this is an aggressive position even if good flexibility.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
#190 ·
#191 ·
I've never tried Enve MTB wheels (which these basically are), but I tried a set of their new fandangled tubeless only (hookless bead - non ERTRO compliant) SES AR 4.5 road wheels last year on my RM-01, and ended up returning them.

It was nearly impossible to mount a tire on them, even the most install friendly tubeless tires, without using a tire lever and quite a bit of force. We have enough cold, wet, crappy weather here that I'd prefer not to have to deal with that in the event I have a problem out on the road.

I'll check my local shop and see if they have any experience with the Enve MTB tires and if they suffer the same problem.

At this point, there is a near zero chance I'd spend that kind of money on wheels for the gravel bike.
 
#192 ·
Those are waaay overpriced IMO. You can get a number of wheelsets that are a decent weight at a fraction of the price. It seems these would only be for someone that wanted Enve for the sake of having Enve wheels. I highly doubt there is any performance advantage.
 
#193 · (Edited)
On the subject of cockpits...

This is the Norco Search I'm replacing.



These are 44cm Ritchey WCS bars. The stem here is a Ritchey WCS 120mm neg. 6 degrees with 1.5cm of spacers.

You can see that I have the bars rolled back a bit and the brake hoods pretty far up on the curve. This is my preferred setup with these bars, but I spend about 95% of my time on the hoods here. I would probably use the drops more, but with this setup, they are nearly unusable due to the bar angle and lack of flare and short extensions.

This is why I want to go with a bar with some flare, a very shallow drop, and longer extensions on the bottom.

It will give me a better, more accessible hand position in the drops.
 
#194 ·
That is very similar to my setup on my road bike (2017 Fuji SL Disc). I could probably push it a bit further, but I like where the hoods are for longer rides. I am hoping the flares bars and relaxed geometry help me out a little bit as well. There are pictures of my road bike over in the Fuji thread.
 
#200 ·
Fellas let’s just say fit is one of those things that intelligent minds can differ on. There are different approaches taken by different folks all of the time. If it’s working for Migen, nobody is really in the position to say it’s completely “wrong” based on an internet photo. First, it’s his bike and he can ride it however he wants. 2nd, people approach fitting differently. For instance, some fitters/riders swear by the perception that a tall stack of spacers is a total no no and unsafe and a sign that you either need a different stem, to have yours flipped, or that you are on the wrong size bike, etc. I also think it’s fair to say all of us should assume that not everyone wants to hear our opinions on every choice they make all of the time and be sensitive to that. My two cents. Carry on.
 
#201 ·
Among amateur riders, there is great variance. Not among better riders. They understand the dynamic I explained. As to wanting to hear the truth, you are correct. Many don't. It makes sense. Intransigent thinking and inability to take constructive criticism is a hallmark of doing things wrong. We learn by one another.
For example, you are not overtly agreeing with me. This means you don't know the difference between right or wrong...or...you choose an intellectually less honest approach of communication by your post above. We are all grown adults here and should be able to take some constructive criticism. If you can't you are stuck in the rut Mig is...with his drop ends pointing almost straight down and with his hoods canted back which places undo pressure on the ulner nerve.
 
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