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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    Honda's auto trannies in the early oughts were terrible. But they eventually sorted them out. If anything they require some extra TLC and some aggressive ATF intervals, just for safety, but they're ok now.
    I'm sure they are, and I'm not prejudiced towards the brand. Mainly just a illustration that no manufacturer is perfect. SystemShock seems prejudiced towards Ford after a bad experience, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a Honda even though they have also had transmission problems. I can understand that, once bitten twice shy.

    Now when people go on and on about how reliable Hondas are and how american cars are junk I have to raise an eyebrow. I've yet to not be able to get 200k miles out of an american car, virtually problem free at that.

    SystemShock as far as your question goes, no I don't think it's typical for either manufacturer. Don't think auto maker intentionally puts out an unreliable or unsafe product, but it's happened and will happen again.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    I could talk all day about the great Ford and GM cars I've had, and the lousy foreign cars my friends have had (or the pathetically easy to steal Accords that my brother had a penchant for, until he decided he didn't want to buy a new car every 5 weeks).
    lol. . That should tell you something; even thieves know a Honda is a better car to steal. hahaha you could leave a crappy Dodge out with the keys in the ignition and no one would touch it.

  3. #53
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    Ford does ONE thing right, The F-Series trucks. I have owned in order: 80 Subaru coupe, 84 VW Rabbit GTI, 91 Honda Civic Si, 2000 Jeep Cherokee, 2004 Ford Explorer and 2011 Subaru Outback.

    80 Subaru. Bought with 128K, drove to 174k+ flawless

    84 VW, Zero issues until I blew the engine when the oil plug came out, don't ask. Had 28K and blew engine at 72.

    91 Civic Si, one bad fuel injector where Honda offered half a recall. Flawless until clutch went at 108k. Sold to buddy who raced it 10 yrs. engine was perfect when I sold. No sign of wear with Mobil 1. Never added brakes even.

    2000 Cherokee. at 3K, electric issues. 31K after warranty tranny went. $4000 repair, traded in to dealer for the Ford.

    2004 Explorer. 3 times complete electrical failure, tranny and engine oil recalls, timing chain rattle at 52K. 63k, the entire suspension needed replacing after eating 2 sets of Michelin tires in 29K miles. Lets not count body work flaws either. HUNK OF SH!T! oh, 2 sets of breaks in 63K miles.

    2011 Subaru Outback. Great car so far and in 58K, nothing but breaks and a faulty seal around the 3rd brake light.

    Don't think I would ever go america. Wife's 2001 Highlander was 7 years old and 45K and flawless!
    Sister in law 208 Ford escape had such bad electrical issues and engineer flew in from Michigan after 8 dealer visits. Told her they had no clue and to sell it to Car max at this point.
    DIRT BOY

    "Pain is a big fat creature riding on your back. The farther you pedal, the heavier he feels. The harder you push, the tighter he squeezes your chest. The steeper the climb, the deeper he digs his jagged, sharp claws into your muscles." - Scott Martin


  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY View Post
    Sister in law 208 Ford escape had such bad electrical issues and engineer flew in from Michigan after 8 dealer visits. Told her they had no clue and to sell it to Car max at this point.
    Why didn't she get it "lemon lawed"? Sounds like she should have had a case. My father-in-law had that happen with a KIA. Actually, KIA offered to buy it back before lawyers were involved and sold him a new KIA at a heavily discounted price and that vehicle has been flawless (4+ years and 50k miles so far).

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    The lock-up transmission problem you cite sounds quite bad (though perhaps not super-common – this the first I've heard of it). But, by the same token, Ford Explorers were known for rolling over and severely injuring or killing their occupants.

    Do you think the lockup issue is typical of all Hondas? If so, then should the Explorer roll-over issue be seen as typical of all Fords?
    It was above industry average, but it was the tranny used with the V-6 in the bigger vehicles like the Odyssey mini-van and not what you'd find with a 4 cylinder Civic or Fit. It even got a mention in a recent article on Jalopnik, Cars with Serious Problems: the Short List The bigger take away from that article is that even "common" problems are not that common. It sucks when you suffer the problem, but as a whole, it is reasonable to expect a long life from any car nowadays and if you didn't, it was bad luck more than anything indicative of the brand.

  6. #56
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    repost.

    I bought an F150 just on these videos. Honda is an excellent vehicle, but buying a Ford F150 is entirely based on WERK!

    In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
    Ben Franklin -Tis curious and amazing to observe how distinct and independent of each other the rattles of this animal are, and yet how firmly they are united together
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    lol. . That should tell you something; even thieves know a Honda is a better car to steal. hahaha you could leave a crappy Dodge out with the keys in the ignition and no one would touch it.
    Actually thieves steal Hondas because Honda Accord has a high number of cars on the road and the parts are interchangeable over many years of models, thus making the parts arena rich and ripe for the selling of parts. Theft of a Honda has nothing to do with the car being a good car or bad car, it has everything to do with volume and how fast the parts can be gotten rid of.

    Crappy Dodge? some are I'll give you that but the new Charger and Challenger with the Hellcat engine will make your Honda look like 200 year old snail, slow and slimy, or the Dodge Ram pickup with the Cummins engine that can drag your Honda upside down on it's roof down the freeway at 90 mph...I kind of would like to see that, especially at night!

    I've known plenty of people who will never buy another Honda, I won't buy one because of lots of problems I had with an Acura and a huge problem I had with a Honda mower, but that's just me, I know too that people like Hondas. This can fav car thing can be said about almost any brand except the old Yugo's.

  8. #58
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    Pretty dang happy with the fit and finish of my Sienna , my Grand Cherokee on the other has problems. Mechanically, both awsome. Ride, the jeep is better but it also has Bilstien shocks, I'm waiting for them to sell the Sienna version.

    honda minivan was on my shirt list, but I never got to drive one. Ford and Honda have nothing that comes close to my diesel Grand Cherokee

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    I'm sure they are, and I'm not prejudiced towards the brand. Mainly just a illustration that no manufacturer is perfect. SystemShock seems prejudiced towards Ford after a bad experience, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a Honda even though they have also had transmission problems. I can understand that, once bitten twice shy.

    Now when people go on and on about how reliable Hondas are and how american cars are junk I have to raise an eyebrow. I've yet to not be able to get 200k miles out of an american car, virtually problem free at that.

    SystemShock as far as your question goes, no I don't think it's typical for either manufacturer. Don't think auto maker intentionally puts out an unreliable or unsafe product, but it's happened and will happen again.
    When you start to read the internet forums for particular brands (as I did) before buying used, it is easy to think that all the cars out there are bad.

    VW--turbo sludge/undersized oil capacity, BMW--plastic cooling components that fail regularly, a whole raft of companies with automatic transmission problems (some because of the claim that they could be run service free for the life of the car), Subarus--head gasket problems. The list is endless...

    Two thoughts--the first borrowed from a recent Malcolm Gladwell piece in the New Yorker, where he points out that every car is somewhere on the spectrum between functioning within tolerances or not (as the engineers would see it)--while we tend to think binary--perfect or broken. He does a great job--using the story of the Pinto--to detail how hard it is to recognize when a problem becomes statistically significant and needs to be recalled.

    Even if a particular car has a systemic problem that needs correcting--some percentage of owners (and quite often most) will not experience it--I can't think of a recall where 100% of owners of a particular brand experienced some problem or other. So it is easy to extrapolate from one's personal experience and claim either that car X is total crap, or the best thing ever made.

    The second thought is that, on average, cars from any maker today are pretty good--and care and feeding, driving habits, where we drive will make a big difference in our experiences with them. (The rest is just playing the odds.) The used market recognizes this in the form of a premium that sellers get for one-owner cars with full service records.

    I started in the dark days of car ownership--my first car was a Morris Oxford (pre-NAFTA. Vancouver used to be the dumping grounds for cars they couldn't sell in Britain) and to go from that to say my friend's new Subie Impreza is all the more startling because it seems to have happened in a relatively short time.
    Last edited by paredown; 05-09-2015 at 03:22 AM.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eretz View Post
    repost.

    I bought an F150 just on these videos. Honda is an excellent vehicle, but buying a Ford F150 is entirely based on WERK!

    This one is a few years old, but, hurray for Toyota. lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZVUnOduH4
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    lol. . That should tell you something; even thieves know a Honda is a better car to steal. hahaha you could leave a crappy Dodge out with the keys in the ignition and no one would touch it.
    or maybe it was because the Honda lock design made it easy to break in with a jiggler key.

    Plus, parts for popular cars are easier to unload then parts for less popular cars. Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks are high on the list as well.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  12. #62
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    I'm curious to what is the average metric here to be considered reliable. Case in point, Dirt Boy mentioned a Highlander with 45k miles on it that has been flawless. I'm sure I could find other car threads on this forum where someone has said "I have a 2013 whatever and it's been BULLETPROOF." I think the expectations should be higher. Personally I'd like to exceed 100k before a anything needs replacement, and that's just peripheral items. 200k should be considered the minimum for a car's usefulness. I know most don't keep a car that long, especially if purchased new but most cars are replaced out of want and not out of need.
    Sent from my Personal Computer while tapping on the keyboard

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBus660R View Post
    Why didn't she get it "lemon lawed"? Sounds like she should have had a case. My father-in-law had that happen with a KIA. Actually, KIA offered to buy it back before lawyers were involved and sold him a new KIA at a heavily discounted price and that vehicle has been flawless (4+ years and 50k miles so far).
    I think in Florida that only applies for the first year. She is also an ex federal attorney and knew it would go no where. Car Max gave her a fair price and never bothered mentioning the problem as it was so obscure. Basically if the humidity got very high at night and only night , at times the car's panic alarm would go off. Not fun in Florida.
    She never wants a FORD again.

    My Father-in-Law who came here form Cuba and was so grateful for this country, ONLY bought American cars for himself or his kids. The type of guy who had that bumper sticker "Buy American or go on Japanese welfare."
    Well, 5 years ago he left Ford and went Korean. On his second Hyundai and will never buy American again. He was happy when I left FORD for Subaru.

    Yes, every car brand has issues. Honda and Toyota have lost a little bit of their ways resting on their laurels the last few years. It shows! FORD has always done full-size pick ups well and the Mustang most of the time. Chevy, great trucks in general, cars hit or miss except for certain full size models. Chevy and Caddy and making HUGE strides in mechanical and interior quality on all their vehicles. I would be tempted now.

    Chrysler blows except Cummings RAM trucks, the Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler line. FIAT is making in roads though.

    Ford is damn cookie cutter on every car and small truck now. Take the same base and make 20 versions of that car. Same with BMW is a sense of styling. Look at a 1 series to a 7 series. Same car just modified and made bigger. This is Fords problem. take the same car body and under pinning and make 10 cars.

    My wife's prius V is 3 years old and she is having issues with their radio infotainment system. Now out of warranty and a $4000 replacement. Toyota can go fvck themselves. Otherwise great car. But wife not happy and waiting for the 2017 Tesla.
    DIRT BOY

    "Pain is a big fat creature riding on your back. The farther you pedal, the heavier he feels. The harder you push, the tighter he squeezes your chest. The steeper the climb, the deeper he digs his jagged, sharp claws into your muscles." - Scott Martin


  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by paredown View Post
    When you start to read the internet forums for particular brands (as I did) before buying used, it is easy to think that all the cars out there are bad.

    VW--turbo sludge/undersized oil capacity, BMW--plastic cooling components that fail regularly, a whole raft of companies with automatic transmission problems (some because of the claim that they could be run service free for the life of the car), Subarus--head gasket problems. The list is endless...

    Two thoughts--the first borrowed from a recent Malcolm Gladwell piece in the New Yorker, where he points out that every car is somewhere on the spectrum between functioning within tolerances or not (as the engineers would see it)--while we tend to think binary--perfect or broken. He does a great job--using the story of the Pinto--to detail how hard it is to recognize when a problem becomes statistically significant and needs to be recalled.

    Even if a particular car has a systemic problem that needs correcting--some percentage of owners (and quite often most) will not experience it--I can't think of a recall where 100% of owners of a particular brand experienced some problem or other. So it is easy to extrapolate from one's personal experience and claim either that car X is total crap, or the best thing ever made.

    The second thought is that, on average, cars from any maker today are pretty good--and care and feeding, driving habits, where we drive will make a big difference in our experiences with them. (The rest is just playing the odds.) The used market recognizes this in the form of a premium that sellers get for one-owner cars with full service records.

    I started in the dark days of car ownership--my first car was a Morris Oxford (pre-NAFTA. Vancouver used to be the dumping grounds for cars they couldn't sell in Britain) and to go from that to say my friend's new Subie Impreza is all the more startling because it seems to have happened in a relatively short time.
    Very well said and true.
    DIRT BOY

    "Pain is a big fat creature riding on your back. The farther you pedal, the heavier he feels. The harder you push, the tighter he squeezes your chest. The steeper the climb, the deeper he digs his jagged, sharp claws into your muscles." - Scott Martin


  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by froze View Post
    Crappy Dodge? some are I'll give you that but the new Charger and Challenger with the Hellcat engine will make your Honda look like 200. . .
    Settle down. . the Accord is my wife's car; my car is an E92 M3. The Accord will be on the road well after the silly looking retro-trash whips will be rusting in a dump somewhere with second or third engines. LOL.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    Settle down. . the Accord is my wife's car; my car is an E92 M3. The Accord will be on the road well after the silly looking retro-trash whips will be rusting in a dump somewhere with second or third engines. LOL.
    M3 eh? Guess what American made car is the functional equal at the track. Yep, Mustang GT.

    That should let some air out of that balloon

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRfEkAKj22s

    One woman I used to ride with is a BMW fan, and she seemed to think the M3 was a Corvette killer. I always had a good laugh about that. BMW fans always seem to have an inflated opinion of how their cars stack up.
    Last edited by Andy69; 05-09-2015 at 02:20 PM.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    This one is a few years old, but, hurray for Toyota. lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZVUnOduH4
    WOW! That Yota is toastah.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY View Post
    Very well said and true.
    As per. He's great at writing.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    BMW fans always seem to have an inflated opinion of how their cars stack up.
    Try driving a S2000 and a Z4 back-to-back, and you'll notice immediately that the Z4's handling, power, ergonomics, drift-a-bility, and weight are all inferior to the S2000.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    M3 eh? Guess what American made car is the functional equal at the track. Yep, Mustang GT.

    That should let some air out of that balloon

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRfEkAKj22s

    One woman I used to ride with is a BMW fan, and she seemed to think the M3 was a Corvette killer. I always had a good laugh about that. BMW fans always seem to have an inflated opinion of how their cars stack up.
    I agree with you. But if you've ever been up Gotthard Pass early morning seeing an 89' Alpina M30. It's impressive. Look at this native USA'ers ride.

    In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
    Ben Franklin -Tis curious and amazing to observe how distinct and independent of each other the rattles of this animal are, and yet how firmly they are united together
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Try driving a S2000 and a Z4 back-to-back, and you'll notice immediately that the Z4's handling, power, ergonomics, drift-a-bility, and weight are all inferior to the S2000.
    S2000 dominates various classes. I never see a Z4
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Try driving a S2000 and a Z4 back-to-back, and you'll notice immediately that the Z4's handling, power, ergonomics, drift-a-bility, and weight are all inferior to the S2000.
    Just watch that ZTEC :-)
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    M3 eh? Guess what American made car is the functional equal at the track. Yep, Mustang GT.

    That should let some air out of that balloon
    Yep, sure let some air out of that balloon (nice wording, too "functional equal"; sweet ): The Mustang is almost as fast as the M3, even though everybody knows it's a POS compared to the M3. But hey, the Mustang's cheap. I'm convinced.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    Personally I'd like to exceed 100k before a anything needs replacement, and that's just peripheral items. 200k should be considered the minimum for a car's usefulness. I know most don't keep a car that long, especially if purchased new but most cars are replaced out of want and not out of need.
    I can totally agree with 200K being the minimum assuming the owner has the required service done (if you wait until the oil pressure/low oil light is on before going in for an oil change you deserve a blown motor lol). I've taken 2 vehicles over 100K that I bought new. The 1st was a '98 F-150. I kept it 9 years and put 150K on it. Outside of normal wear items, I had to put in an alternator, battery, tie rod ends, and driveshaft u-joints. Considering I live in Ohio and deal with road salt 4+ months a year I'd say that was reasonable. The guy I sold it to put another 20k+ on it before selling it to get a heavy duty with a diesel. The other was my '06 mustang GT, I sold it with 106K on the odo after 7.5 years. I had to put a battery, a coil, and a fuel injector in it outside of normal wear items. No idea on what it's status is now, I CarMaxed it because the CarFax was not clean thanks to a soccer mom in an SUV during an ice storm No one on Craigslist was interested in a car that had $13K in repairs done to it.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    I'm curious to what is the average metric here to be considered reliable. Case in point, Dirt Boy mentioned a Highlander with 45k miles on it that has been flawless. I'm sure I could find other car threads on this forum where someone has said "I have a 2013 whatever and it's been BULLETPROOF." I think the expectations should be higher. Personally I'd like to exceed 100k before a anything needs replacement, and that's just peripheral items. 200k should be considered the minimum for a car's usefulness. I know most don't keep a car that long, especially if purchased new but most cars are replaced out of want and not out of need.
    Would tend to agree. 45K trouble-free miles is nothing these days, different auto manufacturers don't really get differentiated in terms of reliability until well past the three-year mark of a vehicle's life. Probably more like 7 to 10.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    ... SystemShock seems prejudiced towards Ford after a bad experience, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a Honda even though they have also had transmission problems. I can understand that, once bitten twice shy.
    'Prejudiced'? LOL. What is this, a Politics Only discussion?

    Yeah, it's just a hunk of metal, ohvrolla. My feelings didn't get hurt none, but you have to draw conclusions from what you experience. It wasn't just the isolated failure, it was multiple mechanics telling me that the DESIGN was lousy, and often-failed, as it certainly did in my case.

    And that not only did it fail, but it was also DESIGNED in such a way that to fix it was prohibitively expensive. Double fail.

    Can you say 'disposable car'? Apparently Ford can, or used to. That doesn't sit well with me.

    Of course, now there are fewer ppl who will just blindly buy something because it's from an American make. Partly because the US automakers didn't really care about the product for a long time and they 'burned brand' and lost loyalty because of it, and partly because competition is so fierce nowadays (even Korea makes nice cars now) that it's harder to produce crap and get away with it... though some companies for some models still do, 'til it catches up with them.

    The Fiat 500, for instance, is supposed to be a notoriously unreliable vehicle. How will Chrysler/Fiat be doing once its burned enough brand/burned enough customers?

    VW is a make that's having probs in the US, in large part due to a bad rep for reliability. Sexy cars, cute commercials, but you get burned enough, and yeah, like you said... once bitten, twice shy. 'Cept now it's more like 'My friend or second cousin or friend of a friend burned, twice shy' because everyone can communicate so much better these days, thanks to tech.
    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

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