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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadfix View Post
    One thing about those old washers and dryers was that I was able to service them myself. And they were always the same parts that wore out or burned out that needed replacing.
    I will admit that I'm not the handiest guy around. My most used tool is my check book. My old washer (a Sears Kenmore) was filling really slow. I had this guy over fixing my dishwasher and I asked him about it. He said to replace some part (I forget what it's called) 'you can do it yourself'. I ordered the part and actually did fix it myself. The hardest part was getting the sheet metal shell back on.

  2. #27
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    We just remodeled the kitchen, so bought all new appliances. Talked to many neighbors, and read up on Consumers. Some interesting things learned
    Volume wise, almost every brand that used to be a main US name is now made by 3 companies - Whirlpool, Electrolux, Haier (GE). Then you have the imports, the Euro and Asian companies. Kenmore never made anything, and gets their units from the others above.
    First, paying more does not get you more quality. Especially in refrigerators. The companies charge you more for "better" brand names, but the quality and guts inside are the same.

    For instance, on french door fridges - the same exact model is used on Whirlpool, Kitchenaid, Maytag, but the price goes up for the premium brand. They change the cosmetics / handles and add dumb stuff inside to make them look different.

    We ended up with a lower cost no frills Samsung from Best Buy, as the 5 year warranty was 1/3 the price of others.
    Everyone who sells and services fridges told us the same thing - expect it to last 5-10 years tops, regardless of brand or initial price.
    On dishwashers - Bosch makes the best one, period. Turns out every company is usually good at one appliance, and lousy on others. So we resisted the push to get all the units from the same company. They match fine.

    We went with a GE stove, which apparently still makes the best product in that category. Went with a 30" slide in format, so basically anything can replace it in the future. GE sold this biz to Haier, but still makes most of the big units in Kentucky. Bosch dishwashers are also made in US, NC I think. Most Samsung fridges are made in Mexico, as are LG, Frigidaire and many others.

    Place of manufacture is not a good or great indicator of quality, though. You can get great quality from Mexico, and poor quality from US built stuff.

    You takes your chances. Consumers Reports is interesting, but ultimately not a great source of info, as they tend to overemphasize certain things like minor energy savings over others like noise, or rollers on drawers, etc.
    No they are not built like they used to be.

  3. #28
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    Nothing like an appliance thread to get the juices flowing. The biggest culprit on expensive repairs is the electronic crap. PC boards that cost $300 or more make the appliance obsolete in a hurry. When buying new resist getting all the bells and whistles unless you buy the extended warranty which is essentially betting that you made a mistake buying said appliance.

  4. #29
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    Got a Bosch DW just after the NC factory came on line. It had a problem with the heater relay solder joints on the main board. Several YT vids on how to fix. I re-soldered it twice, third time bit the bullet and bought the replacement board which had been modified. Worked well after that for many years, but finally gave up the ghost. Put in another Bosch 800 series as they are nice machines.

    Have a couple of the basic whirlopool washers (mechanical timer). Only real problem has been the lid safety switch failed on both units. Replacement is easy except you can't do from outside -- got to pull the frigging cabinet off to get access. Whirlpool "gold" line electric dryer had the heating element fail. Not a big chore to replace. These things are ancient. Wife has no interest in the new computerized front loaders and you can't just buy the washer, you have to buy a stand to put it on.

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  5. #30
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    Try some Google-Fu and see if you can find the circuit board on Amazon or Ebay. It's usually a quick and easy fix.
    I lost my phone number. Can I have yours?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOky View Post
    Speed Queen.
    Yes, but old Whirlpool washers/dryers (also sold under Kenmore brand) are just as reliable and easy to fix. I replaced a lid switch on my 20 year old washer last month, and this month it's time for new drum rollers and belt in my 15 year old gas dryer.

    What I like about these older style washers is that they only take 30 minutes to do a load. Saturday morning, I'll put my first load in about 9:00, and by 11, all my stuff is washed and dry.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  7. #32
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    I buy what my wife tells me she likes.

    My washer has more buttons than about any other object I use on a daily basis and I operate complicated theatrical control systems for a living. I’ve no desire to read the manual on the washer, as I wanted a top loader with a “wash” cycle. As thats default wash, that’s what I use.

  8. #33
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    I love my new Miele dishwasher. Quiet. Capacious. The inside is organized in a way to make it easy to load and easy to unload. Cleans everything perfectly, from kitchen utensils to fine stemmed glassware.

    I'm similarly jazzed with my new Blue Star range. It works with power, delicacy and accuracy. Sure, Sogno becomes an ever-better cook, but the range has a good part in making it so the food at our house has never tasted so good or has been as finely prepared.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Yes, but old Whirlpool washers/dryers (also sold under Kenmore brand) are just as reliable and easy to fix. I replaced a lid switch on my 20 year old washer last month, and this month it's time for new drum rollers and belt in my 15 year old gas dryer.
    Yes, the old whirlpool is not the new whirlpool
    We also have 20 year old whirlpools, the washer dryer pair. Easy to fix, parts available and cheap. Amazon has lots of parts, it's amazing what you can get there these days.

    On the gas dryer, replace the solenoid coil pair while you are in there, they go after awhile. I did them last year along with new belt and rollers. They look like these. Mine actually broke, the symptom was no heat.
    https://www.amazon.com/Whirlpool-Dry.../dp/B00DQVE4RA

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    Yes, the old whirlpool is not the new whirlpool
    We also have 20 year old whirlpools, the washer dryer pair. Easy to fix, parts available and cheap. Amazon has lots of parts, it's amazing what you can get there these days.

    On the gas dryer, replace the solenoid coil pair while you are in there, they go after awhile. I did them last year along with new belt and rollers. They look like these. Mine actually broke, the symptom was no heat.
    https://www.amazon.com/Whirlpool-Dry.../dp/B00DQVE4RA
    I replaced the solenoid last year. Just the price you have to pay for a good gas dryer, I guess. Took about 30 minutes to do, most of that was getting the panels off and on...
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_fuji View Post
    Try some Google-Fu and see if you can find the circuit board on Amazon or Ebay. It's usually a quick and easy fix.
    One thing that has helped DIY is that you can get a lot of parts online as an amateur, and there are YouTube vids for repairs. That plus eBay...

    I have a happy appliance story--

    When we lived in the UK we were first in a tarted up mansion flat that had a great cabinet depth fridge--a Liebherr. Move to Germany--same fridge, and we loved it again.

    Back in the US, we decide we have to have one for the kitchen reno, but they are hella exxxspensive in the US. I find one cheap on Craigslist--a drive, but a deal. Get it back, and it doesn't keep its temps. I take off the cabinet front panels that matched the kitchen that it came out of--problem solved. Turns out it was icing up and not keeping temps because the builders hung these God-awful cabinet doors that weighed 2x the manufacturer's recommended weight for the door panels. Now you know, somewhere there is a PA Mainline housewife who is telling all her friends about how shitty Liebherr fridges are... (And since this is also a CL story, the fridge was said 'not to go with my planned remodel, not 'this fridge doesn't work for ****'.)

    Round 2--I realize that the doors were so heavy, the hinges are worn and distorted, so it doesn't quite close like the doors on a 1980s Mercedes. So I contact the manufacturer for parts. (They know who bought the thing and are a little surprised this fridge is now in NY.) They send parts (not crazy expensive), I take the doors off, install hinges, and all works perfectly. For about 1/10 retail for a barely used fridge.

    Round 3: I get a call out of the blue about two years later. (Fridge has worked flawlessly, I made my own panels to go with our kitchen remodel, everything is great.) It's the manufacturer's rep, saying they want to schedule a service call to replace the hinges (!!) Really??? This was part of a nationwide campaign to make the fridges close more positively (probably an Ammurican problem.) So a few weeks later, the guy shows up, and replaces all of the (barely used) hinges with a cost to me of exactly $0.00. For me--second owner of an out of warranty fridge. WTF?

    Eight years of flawless service and it still seems barely broken in.

    TL; DR: If you are shopping for a new fridge and have the bux, look at Liebherr!
    Last edited by paredown; 02-12-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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  12. #37
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    everything is now designed to break and be more expensive to fix than replace. It is the new consumer cycle which is horrendous for the planet. I had a 'new' washer, the board went bad and it was almost $400 to fix. I pitched it and found an old, computerless washer in decent shape to replace it. It isn't pretty but I can do a majority of the repairs. My dryer is old as well, but my stove is from the 1930s and calls all my other appliances baby. It will outlast me, I am sure of it. I have a new fridge, it sucks
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  13. #38
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    one mans opinion:

    almost ALL appliances have delicate electronics in them any more. I highly recommend a GOOD surge protector ahead of any of them!
    Of course I'm sure...that doesn't mean I'm right.....

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
    This one still has the original computer. Its good exercise for the women-folk too
    My neighbor growing up used one of those up to around 1985 when she passed away. She also had, and used, one of these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cast-Iron-T...-/182954120136

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touch0Gray View Post
    one mans opinion:

    almost ALL appliances have delicate electronics in them any more. I highly recommend a GOOD surge protector ahead of any of them!
    Beyond that, I have learned the hard way with my Maytag Energy Star washing machine that they also have delicate, wonky, janky, hinky sensors all over the machine for various energy saving stuff.

    Basically, I'm now looking for instructions on how to bypass all these machine-ruining sensors. Right after the washer went out of warranty, it started doing things like agitating before it started filling (great way to rip your clothes to shreds), and stopping mid cycle for no apparent reason.

    Right now, the only usable cycles are Hand Wash and Delicate. Most of the other cycles require manual intervention to do anything right.

    The weirdest thing is, after spending countless hours online looking for a fix for these problems, one person said that the machine can be temporarily coaxed to operate correctly by knocking sharply on the Softener Added knob three times.

    It works, but for only a cycle or two.

    How's that for hinky, janky, sketchy, wonky and altogether shoddy and stupid?



    Oh, and the second it was out of warranty, which is exactly when this stupid crap started happening, Maytag said "Sorry. Call a repair shop." I did. $150 to come look at it and parts extra. The main control board is a few hundred bucks.

    Maytag is now officially the worst appliance manufacturer. Way to throw away your great reputation which was well earned over several decades, Maytag.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    Beyond that, I have learned the hard way with my Maytag Energy Star washing machine that they also have delicate, wonky, janky, hinky sensors all over the machine for various energy saving stuff.

    Maytag is now officially the worst appliance manufacturer. Way to throw away your great reputation which was well earned over several decades, Maytag.
    Gotta love the brand management done by big biz today. Maytag at one point was an independent company with excellent quality, but that was a long time ago. Interesting history here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maytag

    some tidbits from that link of how things went bad in later years -
    "While Maytag had begun the process of shifting appliance production to lower-cost assembly plants outside the United States, in 2004 the company was still producing 88 percent of its products in older U.S.-based factories.[8] In an apparent move away from traditional company marketing strategy, company management decided on a plan to stimulate consumer purchases of new Maytag appliances before their old ones had worn out.[9]" - Does this sound like a plan to design washers to fail right after the warranty expires?

    "On April 1, 2006, Whirlpool completed its acquisition of Maytag Corporation. In May 2006, Whirlpool announced plans to close the former Maytag headquarters office in Newton, as well as laundry product manufacturing plants in Newton, Iowa; Herrin, Illinois; and Searcy, Arkansas by 2007.[23] Following the Maytag headquarters closure, all brand administration was transferred to Whirlpool's headquarters in Benton Harbor, Michigan. The Maytag name would now be used on Whirlpool-designed appliances."

    So you basically have an overpriced Whirlpool today if you buy a Maytag. On the other hand, it may be easier to find parts and service info if you search on Whirlpool instead of Maytag.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    Maytag is now officially the worst appliance manufacturer. Way to throw away your great reputation which was well earned over several decades, Maytag.
    Learn how and why these things happen. It was predictable over a decade ago.


    The white appliance industry was once a most reliable one. Then business school graduates discovered it as the next big profit center. Using myth such as 'economies of scale', then many different businesses were merged together. Suddenly Hotpoint (low end appliances) and Kitchen Aid (higher quality) were both the same company and products.


    To pay for enriching themselves, these business school graduates even sold latest innovations (ie Neptune Series) to foreign manufacturers. That technology is now sold by Samsung.


    Why are Samsung, LG, and Bosch now so popular? By implementing cost controls, business school graduates stopped innovation, reduced quality, and enriched top management. Over decades, American 'white appliance' manufacturers will surrender jobs to overseas competition. That is what business school graduates have done to so many industries - GM, Chrysler, General Electric, Sears, Westinghouse, etc.


    Innovation does not appear as a profit for at least 4 to 10 years later. Business school graduates only measure this year's profits. So innovators are only an expense. So innovation is not an asset - it must be stifled and cost controlled.


    So Maytag, once a name for quality, can no longer get it right. For the same reason why most cars now assembled in America come from foreign manufacturers and designers. Even light bulbs - a high tech industry - was surrendered by anti-innovators in General Electric. That is what business school graduates do - maximize this year's profits. Cost control stifle new product development. Cost controls actually increase costs.


    So many Americans aggregate this problem. They buy Americans rather than implement free market forces - buy the best. They reward people who destroy reliable products and jobs. Buy American only protects and enriches business school graduates who continue to downsize - while enriching themselves.


    That is why the free market works. Buy the best. Then companies being run into the ground by business school graduates replace them with people who come from where the work gets done. Unfortunately, too many listen to those business school graduates and buy American. Too many do not believe in what made America great - the free market.


    American products are only inferior because the bosses have no idea how the work gets done. See that repeatedly in a TV show called "Undercover Boss". The boss has no idea how the work gets done. He does what is taught in business schools - maximize profits - the product is irrelevant. As now seen more often in the 'white appliance' industry.

    Electronics are only delicate when the design is cost controlled. Electronics, properly designed, are robust and do not fail for many decades. Don't blame the electronics Blame the business graduate who was made boss of the engineers. Everyone should have learned that even from the Challenger space shuttle explosion.

  18. #43
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    These are the Whirlpool brands today

    Our Brands | Whirlpool Corporation

    I have seen it first hand - if you compare directly and look closely at one model of a Whirlpool refrigerator, there will be an identical KitchenAid, Amana, Jenn-Air, and possibly Hotpoint version. All will be made in the same plant, and use the same internal parts.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Learn how and why these things happen. It was predictable over a decade ago.


    The white appliance industry was once a most reliable one. Then business school graduates discovered it as the next big profit center. Using myth such as 'economies of scale', then many different businesses were merged together. Suddenly Hotpoint (low end appliances) and Kitchen Aid (higher quality) were both the same company and products.

    Electronics are only delicate when the design is cost controlled. Electronics, properly designed, are robust and do not fail for many decades. Don't blame the electronics Blame the business graduate who was made boss of the engineers. Everyone should have learned that even from the Challenger space shuttle explosion.
    Good rant--welcome to the Lounge.

    I heartily agree with you--blame the MBAs with their supercilious claim that their limited tool kit applies if you are manufacturing widgets or selling perfume... and as you say it is only about the numbers.

    The companies who have thought differently (like keeping their skilled teams together through the recession by sharing hours--as did Marvin Windows Housing Slump Forces Cuts at a Small-Town Company - The New York Times ) or by paying above industry average wages and benefits in return for low turnover (Costco https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_3396101.html ) have seen the rewards.
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
    John Rogers

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Why are Samsung, LG, and Bosch now so popular? By implementing cost controls, business school graduates stopped innovation, reduced quality, and enriched top management. Over decades, American 'white appliance' manufacturers will surrender jobs to overseas competition. That is what business school graduates have done to so many industries - GM, Chrysler, General Electric, Sears, Westinghouse, etc.

    Innovation does not appear as a profit for at least 4 to 10 years later. Business school graduates only measure this year's profits. So innovators are only an expense. So innovation is not an asset - it must be stifled and cost controlled.
    Nice rant but if you care to consider any facts you should not innovation is happening faster and more frequent than it has in the history of the planet and many of the companies you named are right up there as top contributors to that.

  21. #46
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    We bought our appliances and A/C from Sears when moved into present home 25 years ago . Not a single issue from any of them so far .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Nice rant but if you care to consider any facts you should note innovation is happening faster and more frequent than it has in the history of the planet and many of the companies you named are right up there as top contributors to that.
    Yeah, it takes talent and engineering innovation to make things so they last through the warranty, but then break afterwards. It appears they are deliberately trying to take the appliance refresh cycle from 20+ years to 5-8 years.
    It's weird, as we all know companies today, now more than ever, CAN makes things with 100% reliability that last. The American car industry has shown me that. You can now drive a car way over 100K miles without replacing a fan belt, water pump, or exhaust system. Wasn't so in the 60's,70's, 80's.

    On the MBA thing - they will do, with efficiency, order, and process whatever they are asked to do by the people employing them. The guys at the top giving the marching orders may not have MBAs, but set the goals and course for the company.

    If the goal is to make the CEO and shareholders as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, the MBAs will execute on that. If they don't like it, they will leave for other green pastures, and many do.
    It really more of a moral/ethics/greed breakdown at the top, an it does not take an MBA for that to happen. IMHO

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    It's weird, as we all know companies today, now more than ever, CAN makes things with 100% reliability that last. The American car industry has shown me that. You can now drive a car way over 100K miles without replacing a fan belt, water pump, or exhaust system. Wasn't so in the 60's,70's, 80's.
    I got so disgusted with 1970s cars that were intentionally less reliable. For example, Henry Ford was so corrupt as to not even know how to drive.

    Go back to the 1950 and 1960s. Innovation was rampant. Every year, something new was marketed. Including automatic transmissions, solid state ignitions, rotating valves that decreased wear, etc That started ending in the 1960s and virtually stopped in the 1970. Electronic ignition was only implemented because the EPA all but required it. Business school graduates blamed government rather than their own anti-innovation (anti-American) attitudes.

    What happened in 2000 Ford? William Clay Ford (who had a driver's license) discover his predecessor (Jacque Nasser) had stopped all new car development - to increase profits. As taught in business schools.

    My last Ford required a valve job at 20,000 miles. Because Ford intentionally removed valve guides to cut costs. He intentionally remove oil holes on overhead cams in the American version of a German designed 2.3 liter engine. Cars with those engines because benchmarks for American failures.

    When GM products only lasted 40,000 miles (fenders were rusting out in two years because GM intentionally did not paint the inside of fender), foreign products were good for well over 100,000 miles. My 1980 Honda Accord got 107,000 miles on its first set of tires. I was disappointed with the 1987 Accord - I only got 98,000 miles.

    Whereas an MBA designed GM or Chrysler now gets 100,000 miles, the engineer designed cars are now getting 250,000. My friend is waiting for his hybrid Civic to get to 400,000 before he sells it.

    Why are American cars getting better? Concepts developed by American innovators (ie W E Deming) finally appeared in American part suppliers because foreign manufacturers needed more reliable (and therefore less expensive) parts. Eventually, even GM had to buy parts from these manufacturer - causing GM cars to last longer. No thanks to GM management.

    Same is ongoing in a light bulb industry. CFL bulb was ready for production in GE in 1975. But GE was changing from innovation to cost controls and profits. Walmart discovered stifled technology in the late 1990s. Walmart has a long history of viciously confronting anti-innovation (anti-American) companies. GE promised to eventually convert factories. Too little too late for Walmart.

    Meanwhile a Chinese immigrant working in GE discovered this stifle technology. Then returned to China to manufacture CFL bulbs. Why did American jobs go overseas? Business school graduates will blame unfair competition, tax laws, education, and everything else to avoid the only reason jobs must go overseas - top management who do not know how the work gets done.

    L prise for LED bulb would be won by a patriotic American company. Does not matter what nation it comes from. Patriots don't waste time and energy singing songs and waving flags. The definition of a patriotic American has always been an innovator. Since that is what every great Americans throughout history did.

    Unfortunately a patriotic American company who won the L prise in 2011 is Phillips - a European company. Because American light bulb manufacturers cannot innovate. Top managers who come from business school know nothing about light bulbs or innovation.

    Where did Cree come from? The top man has about 26 LED patents. Therefore he is a patriotic American. Patriotic Americans buy from Phillips and Cree. And openly disparage GE for decades of anti-American management.

    That explains what is happening with all white appliances. Only the brainwashed listen to wacko extremists politicians lying about unfair competition. Many of those better products feature American innovations stifled in companies such as GE. Where are American companies innovating? Mostly in the greater California regions where companies have few MBAs. Where so many companies can get financing from venture capitalists - who view technology - not profits. Wall Street is where most people are only educated in enriching themselves. Wall Street cannot finance innovation - as even Intel learned in their early days. Intel could not get financing because MBAs cannot see an innovation (had no idea what a microprocessor was) even if it is sniffed up their nose.

    85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Innovation died in Microsoft when a man who came from where the work gets done (Bill Gates) was replaced by a bean counter (Steve Ballmer). Not the exception. An example of God's 1st Commandant. The product is everything.

    We are now seeing that in the white appliance businesses. Others have also posted symptoms of that anti-American, anti-innovation change. None of this should be new to anyone. Unfortunately, too many of us are educated by lies from the business schools. We even blame foreign competition for job losses directly traceable to stifled innovation. Many forget how innovation was rampant in the 1950 and 1960. Innovation, as in the Silicon Valley, was once routine elsewhere in drug and steel industries.

    Lack of innovation is why Samsung, LG, and Bosch are now doing what Honda, Toyota, and Nissan did.
    Last edited by westom; 02-15-2018 at 04:01 PM.

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    My nephews house burned to the ground last year and just now was rebuilt. He used a lot of his insurance money to buy a new refrigerator that has the TV on the front that also takes pictures of what’s inside. Two features that offer no value to me but he is very proud of. We’ll see how long this thing lasts until it he is complaining about having to fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I replaced my washer and dryer with a new top of the line super efficient Amana washer and dryer. Got the really big one so I could do large loads. My wife was happy with how nice the set looks. Christ -- a load of laundry takes almost an hour to wash and another 45 minutes to dry. And the more you put in, the longer it takes. My 30 year old machine was faster and got clothes cleaner. Who cares about saving water? I live in VA -- it flows through my back yard and eventually into the ocean.

    I own a rental house. The washer we replaced 14 months ago is broken. Needs a new control board that is backordered until March 26. Why does a washing machine need a computer inside it?

    Why do water heaters wear out after 6 years? Why do air conditioners and furnaces only last 12 years? When did a roof get so effing expensive to replace? Maybe I need to move to Venice Beach and rent a place.
    part of it is we get appliances for a fraction the price of the appliances in the 70s and earlier. I saw an old newspaper with appliance ads a while back. When converted to modern day dollars, a basic 70s Whirlpool washer with all that obsolete awfulness cost like $2500 in todays dollars, but costs like $400 today.

    Meanwhile, love our LG front load washr and dryer. gentler on clothes, less water, so far 100% reliable. 8 years old

    love our new Samsung Induction cooktop! boils water 2x faster than gas range. more efficient. better control. no danger if element left on. double convection ovens. wow

    love our 3 yr old samsung french door fridge. its the right configuration for a fridge, with drawer for freezer below. Paid like $900usd, it is less than half of the cost of the last fridge I bought in 2001, a silly side by side FridgGallery. And get this: A side by side in the 70s cost like $4,500 in today's money! Electrical goods and appliances in the 1970s with photos, prices and descriptions

    love our 8 yr old kitchen aid Dishwasher too. nearly silent.

    no probs with any of the above, and the Samsung were a good price too. The march of time and efficiency of production has made these appliances cost a fraction what they did in the 70s.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 02-15-2018 at 07:54 PM.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

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