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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    Nothing has happened here like happened at the old place yet. I mean, there were things walking around in the attic (well what did it sound like honey? It sounded just like when YOU walk around up there), water faucets turning on by themselves, furtive movements in dark corners, etc. Some of it is attributable to having a cat, for sure, but some happened after we no longer had a cat, and anyway what is one supposed to think when everyone in the house is sitting in the living room and the hall light comes on, accompanied by the SNAP of the light switch?



    Or when my then 3 year old daughter says out of the blue one day "grandma came to see me last night" and in response to our "huh????", she replied "grandma Millie, same as me" (her name is Amelia), and then later in the day looks in a family photo album, points to an old photo of an old woman and says "Grandma Millie!!". The photo was of her great great grandmother, also named Amelia. Spooooooky.

    On several occasions my daughter has come down stairs saying "what do you want Mommy?" She had heard her name called.

    I find this stuff fascinating. Maybe it's time to call Ghost Hunters lol
    this is making my hairs stand up. I would have been creeped out and scared

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry View Post
    Your whole experience, as far as we know, is nothing but electrical impulses conducted in the neurons of your brain. How the brain creates a mind seems to be one of those fundamental questions science is not so near to cracking.
    We do, however, know that the mind bone is connected to the head bone.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry View Post
    Science isn't a belief system, it's a methodology that has proven amazingly effective at discovering how the Universe works.
    Absolutely true! And... at the same time completely wrong. Science... or anything else can be a part of or even the whole of a belief system. And... unfortunately for some science believers... science is their religion.

    Object truths.... ones that have not ever and never will be changed? We're a tad shy of being that advanced yet.

    Do ghosts... as they exist in your imagination really exist? Well of course not... imagination is not real. Do creatures exist at the very edge of human perception... of course they do. The numbers of things that exist at the edge (or beyond) human perception hasn't been calculated... that I know of. But we know such things exist.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    The numbers of things that exist at the edge (or beyond) human perception hasn't been calculated... that I know of. But we know such things exist.
    Of course we do, because scientific methodology has been applied. So we know about viruses, atomic particles, ultraviolet radiation, etc.

    At this time, as far as I'm aware, there is no convincing evidence that things like ghosts actually exist. So what's more probable, they're figments of peoples imaginations and/or hallucinations or some combination of the two, or they really do exist but we just don't have the technology to detect them yet (remember people say they actually see them, what other things visible with the naked eye can we not confirm?)?

  5. #55
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    the human being can ONLY see/hear etc. in certain frequencies/wavelengths. This seriously limits our ability to observe many phenomena in the natural world. And different individuals are more or less sensitive to different frequencies/wavelengths. To observe in frequencies/wavelengths outside out natural range, we need to LOOK (with mechanical/electronic devices/enhancement) The band we need to observe is nearly infinite .....it is a massive undertaking. A LOT of what we have discovered as a result, was pretty much a "happy accident/coincidence" There are LOTS of things out there that we have never seen or heard.....
    Of course I'm sure...that doesn't mean I'm right.....

    "There's no sense being stupid unless you show it."

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Object truths.... ones that have not ever and never will be changed? We're a tad shy of being that advanced yet.
    An objective truth is not infallible.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touch0Gray View Post
    the human being can ONLY see/hear etc. in certain frequencies/wavelengths. This seriously limits our ability to observe many phenomena in the natural world. And different individuals are more or less sensitive to different frequencies/wavelengths. To observe in frequencies/wavelengths outside out natural range, we need to LOOK (with mechanical/electronic devices/enhancement) The band we need to observe is nearly infinite .....it is a massive undertaking. A LOT of what we have discovered as a result, was pretty much a "happy accident/coincidence" There are LOTS of things out there that we have never seen or heard.....
    No doubt, but people say they see and hear ghosts. It should be trivial with the technology we have to objectively detect them, no matter how sensitive someone's hearing or seeing is to detect things that may be slightly beyond the range of a normal person.

    Have you heard of the blind guy who has taught himself to echo-locate, akin to what bats do? That's pretty amazing he can do that, I think he even rides a bike, slowly. That is an ability so far outside of what is normal for a human as to be at first blush, unbelievable. We didn't just take his word for it, as it was trivial to set up experiments to observe if he can really experience what he claims to experience and indeed they confirmed that he could echo-locate objects.

    I guess I'm at a lost. If people are hearing and seeing a real phenomenon, that we call ghosts, why can't we confirm their existence?

    Again we know people can hallucinate, believe they experience things that aren't actual in reality, etc. In short we know the mind can play "tricks" on people and not accurately reflect reality.

    At this time as far as we know, is it more likely that people who experience ghosts are being "tricked" by their mind, or experiencing a real phenomenon?

  8. #58
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    OK, so the latest. This morning Mrs69 woke me up and said something grabbed her foot. I said no it was my foot bumping you, and she was pretty insistent that it felt like a small child's hand wrapping around her foot, and she rolled over expecting to see our son standing by the bed, but the bedroom door was closed and he was asleep in his bed.

    This place is getting to be as interesting as the last place.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  9. #59
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    ^ Oh, hai. That was me. I was just funnin'.
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  10. #60
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    I'm fairly skeptical (hell, I'm a couple of classes away from a physics degree), but some things are hard to write off...

    For years, the house I grew up in with my parents was haunted and one day the ghost just disappeared, maybe she's still there. I didn't pay much attention to the occasional bump in the night, but there was one particular time that sticks out in my memory. I was in my early teens and my family had gone on an extended family vacation while I stayed home to house sit, keep an eye on my grandma, probably some other stuff that I don't remember now. My grandfather was still in the area and payed me an occasional visit.

    So, anyways, the one night I hear some really obvious audible noises downstairs... each noise was distinct, a creek in the floor, a squeaky door, the coat rack toppling over, doors opening and closing, same with some cupboards and drawers. As a self-test of my experience, let it be noted that I never for a moment thought "ghost." I thought, INTRUDER!!! I grabbed a .30-30, the clip, and some hollow-point bullets. I positioned myself behind the bed with the gun aimed at my bedroom door. I sat there for a good hour.

    The noises only lasted maybe fifteen minutes, then silence for the remainder of the hour. A while later, the door bell rang. I crept up to my bedroom door until I could make out my grandfather's face. At this point, I was questioning what I had experienced. I left the gun in my room and went to answer the door having been given some confidence by my pap's appearance. Once he came into the house, I started to investigate all of the particular noises I heard but nothing was out of place. All off the doors and windows were locked. There was no one else in that house but me, until my grandfather arrived.

    It's not a super dramatic story, but it is one that I kept to my self. I turned white, maybe ten years later when I discovered that my brother and my dad had similar experiences at one point or another.

    I believe in the paranormal, and I don't just mean the undiscovered underlying science... what I experienced wasn't just some unmeasured force, but a series of events. If it is scientifically explainable, then it may be some sort of echo replaying a past scene but otherwise, it seemed too decisive and complex to be considered a simple force of nature. Who knows, just wanted to throw in another perspective.

  11. #61
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    I've got something similar to headloss's story. I'm not a believer by any means, but there are some things that are truly inexplicable and I've got one such case. I was 6 or 7 and was in the first grade. It was just after Winter Break and I had lost my great-aunt, my Noni, during that time. In the kitchen of my parents house, there was an easel and a chair where you could paint, practice spelling and handwriting etc and I used it to practice cursive; Noni was from Switzerland, just outside Neuchatel, and always wrote in flowing cursive and always had very nice handwriting even in her old age (the kind of writing you'd imagine on a royal decree or something) and she was in the process of teaching me cursive when she passed. One night, there was an assignment on our family where you draw a picture and write a few sentences about your family and what you guys like to do together. I did it on my Noni teaching me cursive and the basics of playing piano and the last sentence I wrote was "I miss you Noni" and then went to bed. Got up the next morning and beneath that last sentence was "I miss you too. Love, Noni" in that same flowing cursive. I spoke to my mom and dad and neither admitted to doing it, my father only writes in block letters and my mother's cursive is very compressed and smooshed together. I never brought that into school and told the teacher I forgot it and kept it in my room.

    My mom and I were talking a few nights ago over my birthday dinner and I brought it up to her; she got very serious and quiet. She asked if I remembered it and I told her I did and I still had it. She told me my dad turned white and walked back down the hall to their bedroom and she froze in her tracks before going back about the process of getting me ready for school. She and my dad talked about it later that night after I had gone to bed and they asked the other if they did it and they both said no. They were both really shaken by it and not sure what to think. The picture still hangs by my desk in a little basic poster frame, my not-so-great handwriting and picture in pencil and the flowing reply in black ink. To be honest, not sure I'd like a scientific explanation for it; I know either of my parents would have told me by now (by 25, life loses most of its innocence it seems ) and I'm ok with not knowing.
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  12. #62
    LWP
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    I'm not a believer but it is interesting when something happens that you can't find any realistic explanation for. A couple of examples from my experience...

    A restaurant where I used to work is located right beside the town beach on a local lake. One slow night just before closing time, me and a waitress were sitting at a table talking when I saw a young boy walk up to the door. I watched the door waiting for the kid to come in (it wasn't unusual for kids to try to come in from the beach wanting to use the restrooms, we'd just politely send them to the public restroom on the beach). The entire restaurant was pretty much walled in windows to allow a nice view of the lake so it didn't require any special effort to see people come to the door or leave. After maybe a minute, the waitress said "Where'd that kid go?" and I replied "So you saw him too?". I went to the door and there was nobody out there. There is no way to continue past the door because of the way the building was designed and there's no way to leave from the door without walking past all of the windows but there was no kid out there or on the beach. Even if the kid could have escaped the restaurant deck without being seen (which wouldn't be possible unless he literally crawled on his belly), there's no way he could have got across the beach and out of site in the amount of time before I went to the door even if he ran. When we were talking about it to someone else, he said he'd heard similar stories before and later brought us a picture that we could have picked from a lineup as the kid we saw. A kid that apparently drowned on the beach years before I lived in this area. Didn't convince me of anything but it was kinda weird.

    Another was related to a set of knives my mom gave me. They were in a magnetic rack that was supposed to hang on the wall that I'd never got around to hanging. It was on a counter leaning against a wall and had been there in that same spot for a couple years. I have a tradition of doing a lot of cookie baking to give away at Christmas that I picked up from my mom. About a month before Christmas the year my mom passed away, my GF and I were standing in the kitchen talking about the Christmas baking. I told her it was too depressing to think about it with mom gone and I wasn't going to do it that year. Within a couple seconds of those words leaving my mouth, the entire rack literally jumped out from the wall and fell over. It didn't just tip over (which would have been odd enough considering it had never moved before), it was laying several inches out from the wall. My GF said "I think mom is saying bake the d*mn cookies". I laughed and said "yeah, I guess she is". Another strange happening that I can't explain but still not enough for me to be convinced. Stubborn I guess.
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  13. #63
    Lost in Space...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWP View Post
    Another strange happening that I can't explain but still not enough for me to be convinced. Stubborn I guess.
    I think it's healthy to consider the alternative explanations and be skeptical... it's also healthy to keep an open mind and bake those *@$&*+@ cookies!

  14. #64
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    Every house I've owned, I got for a bargain because the previous owner had died.

    My first house, the owner had died in the house. My first night there, I was dead tired, naturally, from all of the moving in. Middle of the night, the alarm system goes off. Now, it wasn't connected to the call center, and no one had any idea of the arm / disarm codes, so it just was there. Jumped up, ran all around the house trying to find the window, door or moving object that might have set it off... Nothing. Grabbed a screwdriver, pulled the control box out of the wall, disconnected the wires - still sounding. Went to the basement, opened the main alarm panel, disconnected everything - still going. (this is between perimeter checks to re-confirm that no one was breaking in.) Finally found the alarm horn (it was buried in a cold-air return duct) and the wires to it, to cut them. And I did - but the horn kept sounding. It would not stop. I finally found the exact location of the horn, opened the nearest vent, pulled it out, took it to the basement, and pummeled it with a sledge to get it to stop.

    Needless to say, that had me amped, and I didn't sleep much the rest of the night. But the alarm went off, and I needed to go to work. So I got in the shower, and just leaned up against the wall for a moment to let the water ease some of the moving pains. Just as I was about to feel alive again, BLAAAT! BLAAAT! BLAAAT! - the smoke alarm was going off. Jump out of the shower, nearly killing myself on the slick tile floor. Run out into the hall, through the entire house - no smoke, no fire, not even an off odor. Finally get it off the wall and get the battery out of it, which, happily, shut the damn thing up.

    Opal clearly didn't want me in her house.

    -OR-

    They put battery backups in the alarm system horns, so that if a burglar tries to cut the wires or if there's a power failure, the alarm goes off to warn you. And the realtor 'helpfully' decided that since there wasn't an active alert system, that she'd save me the electricty, and unplugged it. When the battery got to critical level, the circuitry tripped, and the horn started sounding, and would until it's battery died (or physics won the day.)

    And the smoke alarm? It was right outside the bathroom door in a narrow hallway. The steam from the shower (it was an old photoelectric model) set it off. Moved it out to where the real airflow from a fire danger would occur, and no problems.

    Maybe some things are magic, spirits, or whatever. Or maybe we just don't understand all the facts, and fill in with imagination and stories. I'm OK with either, but on a bet, I'll usually choose the second.

    But I can also find underground pipes with forked sticks or bent wires, so who knows.
    A good habit is as hard to break as a bad one..

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    OK, so the latest. This morning Mrs69 woke me up and said something grabbed her foot. I said no it was my foot bumping you, and she was pretty insistent that it felt like a small child's hand wrapping around her foot, and she rolled over expecting to see our son standing by the bed, but the bedroom door was closed and he was asleep in his bed.

    This place is getting to be as interesting as the last place.
    time to whip out the camcorder.

  16. #66
    flinty-eyed moderator
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    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    Seems to me one of the things we've learned or at least it's getting more popularized recently, is how little insight we have into why we believe the things we believe or the fact that a lot of what we may believe even about are own decisions and beliefs just isn't accurate. We often seem to be at a loss for why our brain comes up with the stories that it does.

    My favorite example is V.S. Ramachandran's theory about the Capgras Delusion. Where after suffering a head injury some people insist that people well-known to them (e.g. their mother) are in fact imposters. Ramachandran thinks it's because there is no emotional response (because the link between the visual and emotional centers of the brain no longer exists) generated by the sight of the person following the injury and the brain comes up with the explanation, that the person readily accepts, that the person therefore must be an imposter.

  18. #68
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
    I think I mentioned previously about the woman who was seeing apparitions in her room at night and it was discovered there was a strong EM field around the head of her bed, caused by the electrical panel on the other side of the wall. She moved her bed and the apparitions went away.

    The infrasonic thing is interesting. They mentioned chills, I wonder if the sound actually causes the temperature to drop? I'm familiar with more than one paranormal investigation where they were able to record dramatic temperature fluctuations.

    I don't think infrasound explains all, or even most, but it's a pretty interesting lead.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    This, people who believe will see and those that don't, won't. Same for UFOs, believers look into the sky wanting to see something and the others never really look at the sky for anything other than satellites, stars and comets etc. Not dumb but easily convinced perhaps.
    See I am just the opposite. I was a total non believer and then had 3 experiences that were plain 'observation' one being a full body apparition. I could NOT explain them with standard science. It left me in quite a quandary.
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

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  20. #70
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    Quote Originally Posted by L_Johnny View Post
    time to whip out the camcorder.
    we've had that discussion. we're not exactly sure we want to know
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  21. #71
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    Get out! Get out while you still can!

    You know when you watch a scary movie and always wonder why the actors go in to the woods alone because they "saw something?" Or when their house is haunted and they just hang around instead of leaving.

    YOU ARE THAT GUY!
    I warned ya....

  22. #72
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    my daughter watched a shadow come down the stairs and go around the corner

    Or a different take on that infrasonic thing is that it simply weakens the wall between this side and the other.

    And how do you explain the vast amount of ghost stories from before there was electronics or electricity? Unless infrasonic can be naturally occurring. That I don't know. Time to google

    Bill

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Or a different take on that infrasonic thing is that it simply weakens the wall between this side and the other.

    And how do you explain the vast amount of ghost stories from before there was electronics or electricity? Unless infrasonic can be naturally occurring. That I don't know. Time to google

    Bill
    There are any number of books explaining why people believe these sorts of things.

    Carl Sagan has a pretty famous one, Michael Shermer has more than one, I think.

    Human brains have several quirks that predispose to these sorts of things. After all brains, like all your organs, evolved to keep you going long enough to pass on your genes. Not to be perfect, unerring or infallible machines.

  24. #74
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    my family has a few of these stories...

    uncle was a photographer for a church based magazine who sent him on location to various Abbey's and churches around the world...
    was doing a story on a children's care facility located in an OLD church...1400's kind of old...stepped into one of the kid's rooms to say goodnight to one of the kids after he heard some noise..watched a shadow move off one of the sleeping kids...up the wall...along the ceiling...and out an adjacent window...

    also, the night my grandfather passed...my uncle came home from the hospital to a stained glass art piece his wife made years before....swinging on the kitchen window...the window was closed...the furnace/AC was off....
    Not banned yet.

  25. #75
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    Nothing new since the last episode.

    But I'm reminded of an experience at my ex's family farm house. It was built in stages, with the oldest part sometime after the Civil War. We were spending the weekend there, just she and I. She went to bed around 10 pm and I stayed up working on a model at the kitchen table. I cleaned up about 12:30 or so and set my very stable little tin of paint thinner in the middle of the table on a piece of paper and went to watch TV for a bit. At 2 AM I decided to go to bed and when I passed the kitchen door I smelled paint thinner. I went in and found my little tin tipped over and spilled. I cleaned it all up and put the rag outside and when I turned around to go upstairs the under stairs closet door, which I had walked past to get to the kitchen, was wide open.

    That freaked me out. The next morning I tried like hell to get that door to open by itself, but until it was more than half way open, it would swing closed by itself.

    Lots of stories from other family members about that place.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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