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Thread: New turntable

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    With respect, pretty much every turntable with pretensions to quality back in the day tried to pin the "poor man's Linn Sondek" label on themselves, or fans of said 'tables did. Most of the time, it wasn't justified.
    But not every table with pretensions to quality back in the day had a tone arm that was designed by the same person as the Ittok tonearm. Although I do think the moniker was aimed more at the T-60 than the rest of the line, they did all have the same arm and platter bearing.

    But if the Rega is the poor man's Linn Sondek, then the HK is actually the destitute man's Linn Sondek. I think I paid $145 for a floor model in 1987. I would have gotten the AR turntable but, being that one is the somewhere between poor and destitute man's Linn Sondek, and me being a poor college student, I went with the cheaper option.
    Last edited by Andy69; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:00 PM.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapei View Post
    My wife suffered audiophilia for a time and bought a Linn Sondek with a Basik arm. The first moment she was away, I grabbed the thing (carefully of course!) and plugged it into my system next to my then fairly new Sota Sapphire. A turntable test! What the hell was that arm again?

    A few apples-oranges differences notwithstanding, I found the two turntables to have separate but near equal strengths. The Linn had the edge in speed stability, something that made pianos and strings seem better in tune. The Linn, though, suffered from that infamous mid-bass bump that, though it gave the sound more punch, made everything seem slightly midrangey and out of tonal balance. Still extremely inviting, however.

    The Sota, meantime, was no slouch at speed stability, either. It gave a deeper, more spacious image. Perhaps the image was less tactile but it was more convincing. Bass went down another octave.

    I decided to stick with the Sota. Twenty-something years on, we both still have the tables, mine updated along the way with new springs, new bearing, new arms, and various cartridges and cables...as befitting my continuing case of audio nervosa.
    Ah yes, Linn vs SOTA, UK vs USA, the classic audiophile match-up.

    I had a friend with a SOTA Star Sapphire back in the day, and he really liked it. I got to listen to it a fair amount, and I admired the level of detail, and the strong and deep bass. The overall effect was 'CD-like, but better'.

    But I, like Sogno, still liked the Linn better. The musicality man, the tunefulness. It really sucked you in, even if the 'realer than real' feel of it may not've always been strictly accurate to what was on the record. But it's hard to argue with emotion.

    However, Linn got rid of a lot of the mid-bass bump and associated coloration in the early '90s, with the Lingo power supply upgrade and the new standard bearing (the 'Cirkus', I think they called it). Linns are more accurate now, though some fans still prefer the older ones. SOTA hasn't rested on its laurels either, and continues to improve the product.

    Which one's better overall? It's like Coke and Pepsi. For people who have a lot of money.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    But not every table with pretensions to quality back in the day had a tone arm that was designed by the same person as the Ittok tonearm. Although I do think the moniker was aimed more at the T-60 than the rest of the line, they did all have the same arm and platter bearing.

    But if the Rega is the poor man's Linn Sondek, then the HK is actually the destitute man's Linn Sondek. I think I paid $145 for a floor model in 1987. I would have gotten the AR turntable but, being that one is the somewhere between poor and destitute man's Linn Sondek, and me being a poor college student, I went with the cheaper option.
    Well, poor college students deserve good audio too... you get whatcha can afford, only way to really stretch your dollar is to buy used or to mod.

    Far as the HK T60 goes, IIRC it wasn't a major-leaguer, but it could be modded to sound pretty good. So, not a 'poor man's Linn Sondek', but a 'DIY poor man's Linn Sondek', as it were.

    And the styling's nice on those, clean and modern. Though some say it kinda looks like a big platter sitting on top of a preamp.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  4. #54
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    I had a Garrard, then the ubitquitous PL-12D, then a decent PL-518 w/ Stanton 681EEE in college. Lots of guys had AR and Thorens, i.e. TD124, they were pretty decent too. That was in the the mid to late 70's, btw.

    The VPI stuff just keeps getting better. In today's dollars, a 1977 turntable that cost $550. would be about $2,200. today. For a bit over $2K, this VPI Prime Scout looks a killer unit - my next table if I ever sell the Rega 3P
    VPI Industries | Turntables Made in USA


    Last edited by Z'mer; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:02 PM.

  5. #55
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    Groovy. No pun intended.



    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    The VPI stuff just keeps getting better. In today's dollars, a 1977 turntable that cost $550. would be about $2,200. today. For a bit over $2K, this VPI Prime Scout looks a killer unit - my next table if I ever sell the Rega 3P
    VPI Industries | Turntables Made in USA



    +1. VPI's been good for a long time, and in recent years they've put an increasing emphasis on putting out more-affordable (but still high-quality) 'tables.

    They're good enough that you don't buy 'em because of the Made in USA angle or because you like the styling... you buy 'em because they're the best-sounding decks in the price range. As they often are.

    VPI is like a nut-punch to the often-overpriced-outside-of-the-UK British 'tables... even as much as I love the best of those.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The Ortofon [Red] is a nice cartridge for the money. We used to install them on a lot of Rega and Project entry level tables when I was in the retail biz.

    I've long been a fan of Dynavector cartridges. The 10x5 is a nice step up, though I see it's price has gone way up. It may have more competition at the $650 price. I haven't been keeping up with all that's out there so much lately.
    There is a lot of competition in cartridges at that price point these days... the Dyna you mention, the Orotofon 2M Black and 2M Bronze, Denon 103, Sumiko Blue Point and BP Evo, Rega Exact, etc. etc.

    It's almost surprising... vinyl only just climbed back out of the grave a few years ago, and yet there's so many choices and even cutthroat competition amongst analog equipment. Good for the consumer, tho'.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  8. #58
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    Cartridges. Cartridges. I've had a few. Off the top of my head... I had my Denon 103. Beautiful tone. It couldn't track its way out of a paper bag. The mistracking bothered me so much, I replaced it with a Shure V15. Not quite as pretty sounding, but gone was end-of-side distortion and spitty sibilants. My one experience with a Dynavector (who knows what the model was) was not happy. It just sounded ugly to me. Too hi-fi. I had another Denon that tracked pretty well and sounded nearly as good (though not quite) as the 103. My current Lyra Delos is the best cartridge I've ever had in every respect. It tracks as well as the V15. Lovely tone that perfectly complements my electronics and speakers. Three dimensionality of a quality I've never gotten from anything else. Maybe it'd be too bright for electrostatics and tranny amps but Not My Problem.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  9. #59
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    Two mentions here of the veritable Denon DL-103. Whenever Zu Audio gets their hands on some more Denon stock, I'm on their waiting list to get one of their modded 103's for my turntable. Plan to mate it with a Jelco 750 tonearm, and my system will be complete.

    Mapei, the Denon's really sound that good? I've heard it described as very musical, while some of today's modern cartridges are in search of pulling ever more detail from the recordings, and sort of losing sight of the musicality in the process. More of a data versus soul thing.
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    +1. VPI's been good for a long time, and in recent years they've put an increasing emphasis on putting out more-affordable (but still high-quality) 'tables.

    They're good enough that you don't buy 'em because of the Made in USA angle or because you like the styling... you buy 'em because they're the best-sounding decks in the price range. As they often are.

    VPI is like a nut-punch to the often-overpriced-outside-of-the-UK British 'tables... even as much as I love the best of those.
    Yes, a multi-generation audio company that just keeps delivering great products. The other American companies I can think of like that might be Grado, Magnaplanar, and Pass Labs. Nelson Pass is really my hero, this guy gives so much back to the DIY community (see DIYAudio.com), and also sells reasonable class A amps under First Watt.
    You guys are getting me motivated to sell some those valuable 70 year old tubes stashed away in the basement so I can buy more of these vinyl goodies.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Two mentions here of the veritable Denon DL-103. Whenever Zu Audio gets their hands on some more Denon stock, I'm on their waiting list to get one of their modded 103's for my turntable. Plan to mate it with a Jelco 750 tonearm, and my system will be complete.

    Mapei, the Denon's really sound that good? I've heard it described as very musical, while some of today's modern cartridges are in search of pulling ever more detail from the recordings, and sort of losing sight of the musicality in the process. More of a data versus soul thing.
    Denon has always been one of my favorite companies. They have ears. They make their products with care.

    I started with the company by getting their classical LPs. Was it 1980? The lps were recorded digitally, this long before Compact Discs or any other digital media was available. Whatever they were doing, the recordings never even remotely suffered from digit-itis. Musical! Musical! Convincing midrange. Zero high-frequency hash. Nobody at the time made better pressings, either. Now, of course, because LPs are pretty much boutique items, excellent pressings are commonplace.

    As I mention above, my Denon 103's tracking ability was frustrating as hell, but the overall sound was good enough for me to replace my cheezy Technics turntable with a very nice Denon direct drive (replaced long ago by the SOTA). I also made my first Compact Disc player a Denon. I must report, however, that its replacement, a Sony 5400ES SACD player, is considerably better. Time marches on. I gotta say, too, that the Sony player can make a suitably engineered standard CD sound as good as an SACD, and sometimes as good as an LP.

    Finally, oh yes, in my early days I didn't use a step-up device with my moving coil cartridges. I simply cranked the volume knob to Three O'Clock. I only bought a phono amp when I got my non-phono staged Primaluna Integrated. The phono amp is a Moon LP3. It does the job quite nicely.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  12. #62
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    +1 to Mapei's comments on Denon the (pretty awesome) company, though IIRC their turntables never really broke through and gained major audiophile cred in the same way that some of their other products did. Haven't heard a Denon 'table in forever, so I don't know if that was a fair take by the audiophile community or not. It isn't always.


    long sidenote on the Denon carts: The much-loved Denon 103 got updated to a 103-R version a number of years ago, although the regular 103 is still sold alongside it to this day. FWIW, the 103R allegedly both sounds better and tracks better than the regular 103 (though for all I know Mape had the 103R version, and still had issues).

    It costs more too, but still not all that much by audiophile standards or for the level of sound quality you get... the R is $379 list, but is (strangely) available at Walmart for $299.

    (how Walmart even knows what a Denon 103R *is*, much less sells them, is beyond me. )

    Oh, and of course its a low-output moving-coil cartridge (i.e. needs a phono stage with lots of gain, or a separate step-up stage to help out, a possible added expense). But on the financial plus side, many feel that the 103R/103 sounds better than a great many much more expensive carts.

    To my ears, you pretty much have to go up to the $600-750 level to match or beat it, and even that's only with the best carts in that class.

    Your own mileage may vary, but nearly everyone seems to agree it's pretty darn good, assuming an appropriate tonearm match and good set-up (which also can affect tracking).

    Why is it loved by many? Because it seems to care more about 'being musical' and giving pure musical enjoyment, rather than being coldly analytical and wringing out every last iota of detail (i.e. being surface-level/immediately impressive), at the possible expense/de-prioritization of how the performance as a whole sounds/feels, or how well the cart will wear on the user over time.

    Which I guess is also what Mape was talking about when he said Denon was a company 'with ears'.




    .
    Last edited by SystemShock; 1 Week Ago at 05:17 AM.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  13. #63
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    From what I've been reading, the Denon cart likes a tonearm with a good bit of mass to it, which the Jelco will provide in spades.

    Perhaps Mapei's issue with tracking was just something that a bit heavier tonearm could have resolved?

    And also, from what I've been reading, the 103R leans to that more modern sound, more analytical and detailed than the 103, maybe a bit more top end sparkle. I think musical and feel is more of what I'm looking to get out my system anyway, rather than a cold digital analytic sound, so i think the Denon is gonna be perfect for me. From what I've heard, the Zu mods take the Denon sound and make it even better.
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    From what I've heard, the Zu mods take the Denon sound and make it even better.
    Yup. Basically there's a small cottage industry modifying/upgrading 103 carts, several companies do it (which may seem odd, but isn't if you remember that the 103 has been in production for over 50 years, i.e. there's a lot of 'em out there). Zu is allegedly one of the best modders. I'd guess other popular Denon carts can be modded by someone too, or even DIY-modded assuming you know what you're doing.

    The only small caveat to the process that I'm aware of (besides the $$ outlay) is that the cart then becomes heavier after modding (depending on which mod/modder), so you have to remember to re-balance your tonearm (i.e. rotate the counterweight to the new 'zero' equilibrium position, then reset tracking force).

    Also, I guess it's possible to make the cart enough heavier that it might no longer be a good match with your current tonearm, so you have to kind of check that out in advance before proceeding.

    But, if I had a 103 or 103R, I'd probably opt to go the route you describe and let Zu do their thing, tonearm willing.

    Of course, you are spending a fair amount of money here (103 + mod), so likely only worth it to do if you already have a pretty good turntable/tonearm combo, and good MC phono stage.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  15. #65
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    Any added weight to the cartridge is a plus from what I understand. The 103 works better with a good chunk of mass behind it, from what I understand. It's a low compliance cartridge, so it needs some weight behind it to track well, its origins being a cartridge for broadcast equipment, not fiddly audiophile stuff.

    Yeah, you can mod them yourself by just buying a wooden or aluminum body on ebay, and then cutting the cartridge out of the plastic housing it comes in, but there's a chance of breaking the cantilever if you screw up, so I'm figuring the cost of a cartridge and new fancy housing is approaching what ZU would charge for theirs, so I'm leaving it to the professionals to do.
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Any added weight to the cartridge is a plus from what I understand.
    Much of the time, that's fine. But increased cartridge mass changes the resonant frequency of the cart/arm combo, potentially to somewhere you don't want it to go, if the mass increase is high enough and you didn't have much room for error to begin with.

    https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/...compatability/
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  17. #67
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    I honestly don't know if I'd ever do a modification to a cartridge. With the rebirth of the LP, new cartridges and new cartridge manufacturers are sprouting like weeds. I've been in this game forever, but I've only recently seen names like Soundsmith, Hana and Shelter. Maybe Clearaudio has been around for a tad longer, but it's not exactly an heirloom name like Grado, Shure, or even Dynavector. And we can't forget van den Hul. Is this guy also a classics rider?

    And oh yeah. Yeah, perhaps I could blame my Denon 103's tracking woes on myself, but I'm just not tweaky enough want to buy another tonearm (or mod a tonearm) just to make a particular cartridge perhaps become a bit happier.

    P.S. As I was writing this reply, I took a peak into a box of some old stereo stuff. Anybody want a V15? A Grace F9L? Steel is real, man!
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Much of the time, that's fine. But increased cartridge mass changes the resonant frequency of the cart/arm combo, potentially to somewhere you don't want it to go, if the mass increase is high enough and you didn't have much room for error to begin with.

    https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/...compatability/

    PS- This may be of some use:

    https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridg..._evaluator.php
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Thanks for that link. And if you want to use the Denon DL-103 with that chart, here's one that talks about the 10 Hz compliance being ~ 12
    The factory spec of 5 is for 100 Hz.
    https://www.vinylengine.com/turntabl...p?f=98&t=78463

    The other thing many people do is add mass under the headshell, they sell 3g weights for that. Or you could tack a penny on top (and re-balance) to test the theory. Most 103 users with medium weight arm owners report better bass with some more mass (3-6g).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    Thanks for that link. And if you want to use the Denon DL-103 with that chart, here's one that talks about the 10 Hz compliance being ~ 12
    The factory spec of 5 is for 100 Hz.
    https://www.vinylengine.com/turntabl...p?f=98&t=78463

    The other thing many people do is add mass under the headshell, they sell 3g weights for that. Or you could tack a penny on top (and re-balance) to test the theory. Most 103 users with medium weight arm owners report better bass with some more mass (3-6g).
    Yes, good catch, I forgot to mention it... Denon's (and some other Japanese makes) published cart compliance specs are measured differently than the industry norm. Why they do it that, I don't know. It's confusing.

    The often-cited rule is that you have to multiply their compliance spec by 1.8 or so to get it in-line with the way everyone else measures cart compliance, and even that probably isn't precise.

    It bears further investigation if one has a Denon cart or is thinking of purchasing one.
    System: Fake news?? Trump is a Fake President™, for god's sake.

    Monk: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    EJ Dionne: Modern-day conservatism isn't conservatism. It's reaction rooted in deep pessimism that isn't in keeping with the American character.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind.


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