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  1. #51
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    Most of my family learned to drive a stick on our 1976 Datsun B210. I never found the ability laudable or impressive, more of a necessity to wring the most out of a small engine. They're also useful in hilly areas.

    I owned sticks off and on until breaking my foot. If I ever get another one it will likely be in a Civic.
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  2. #52
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    What is so difficult about driving a manual transmission in traffic?

    Yeah, it's not as easy to drink a beer, smoke a cigarette, and eat a hoagie when cornering but other than that.

    What's so difficult about driving a manual transmission period?

    Uhh, nothing.

    The same people that suck riding bikes, suck driving cars.

    There needn't be any racing or driving any differently actually. You do EVERYTHING deliberately.

    When you drive an automatic your left leg obviously just rests. With a manual your left leg eases the clutch in and out and you deliberately move the shifter. Your left leg might as well be completely independent for all it matters.

    Yeah, you have to have a little sense and feeling and most people don't and just stomp on $hit but I wouldn't want these people riding my bikes either.

    There's nothing sexy about women driving a standard either. The only issue competently driving a standard is being sentient.

    For someone flummoxed by the proposition the instruction is simple.

    You have the student in the passenger seat scoot down so they can see the left foot.

    You then let the clutch back very slowly, incrementally, millimeter by millimeter until the car is rolling. Repeat a couple of times until they catch on that there is no rush to do ANY of this.

    How hard is it to run the shifter through the gear box?

    Jeez, the other great mystery wrt bikes is how to track stand, another thing that isn't all that difficult to do with a little instruction, understanding and practice.

    My 77 year old mother and 53 yo sister have always driven manual transmissions. Never thought it was sexy. Not much sexy about driving 60's Bugs or a '72 VW square back.
    Last edited by Jackhammer; 03-02-2017 at 07:19 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    What is so difficult about driving a manual transmission in traffic?
    I don't think anybody thinks it's THAT hard to learn basic manual transmission skills. It just takes a few hours of practice to get the feel for it. But most people don't have access to a manual transmission vehicle they can learn on.

    And of course, there's a big difference between learning the basic skills and expert level mastery (like the Senna video posted above).

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    I don't think anybody thinks it's THAT hard to learn basic manual transmission skills. It just takes a few hours of practice to get the feel for it. But most people don't have access to a manual transmission vehicle they can learn on.

    And of course, there's a big difference between learning the basic skills and expert level mastery (like the Senna video posted above).
    i think the WHOLE reason for the existence of threads like this is that people DO believe there is some kind of difficulty in being competent driving a manual transmission.

    I also dont believe Senna's genius was operating the gearbox. He'd be just as successful if not more so driving today.

    That video was very odd in that Senna helped develop that car in order to make it easy for non experts to drive fast. Maybe he/Acura was worried enthusiasts would see it as TOO easy to drive so he had to drive on the ragged edge.

    But at any rate, shifting gears isn't the talent of these guys. The same way it isn't the equipment or technical mastery with Valentino Rossi, golfers, guitarists, cyclists or drivers.

    It's a small part of it.

    People are generally just horrible drivers. They follow too closely, they're not aware they're in the left lane driving 60 mph, or three abreast, they're always on the brakes.

    The Senna video, he made it look hard, which applies to like .001% of all driving.

    I'd like to see a stair stepped thing where he demonstrates how he acquired that talent and also how he drives normally. Kinda like that movie where Niki Lauda is driving normally and then beats the $hit out of the BMW to entertain the race fans in the back and impress his skeptical future wife in the passenger seat.

    also, if it only takes a few hours to get the feel for it, why are supposedly skilled drivers complaining about driving a manual transmission in stop and go traffic? They don't have the feel for the clutch? It takes the same small effort to move the right foot from the gas to the brake or to just cover the brake in heavy traffic.
    Last edited by Jackhammer; 03-02-2017 at 09:05 AM.

  5. #55
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    "There's nothing sexy about women driving a standard either."

    If she is wearing a mini skirt and operating the clutch a lot the skirt tends to ride up. That can be sexy...
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  6. #56
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    "also, if it only takes a few hours to get the feel for it, why are supposedly skilled drivers complaining about driving a manual transmission in stop and go traffic? They don't have the feel for the clutch? It takes the same small effort to move the right foot from the gas to the brake or to just cover the brake in heavy traffic."

    I know that it is extra wear and tear on the clutch to keep operating it to that extent. Having to shift into first, then second to go fifty yards and then come to a complete halt is irritating - especially if you have several miles of this to endure. Luckily for me, I don't live in a city where I have to endure that on a regular basis.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  7. #57
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    Driving a car without ever learning to drive a manual is kinda like riding an ebike without ever riding a real bike.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    "also, if it only takes a few hours to get the feel for it, why are supposedly skilled drivers complaining about driving a manual transmission in stop and go traffic? They don't have the feel for the clutch? It takes the same small effort to move the right foot from the gas to the brake or to just cover the brake in heavy traffic."

    I know that it is extra wear and tear on the clutch to keep operating it to that extent. Having to shift into first, then second to go fifty yards and then come to a complete halt is irritating - especially if you have several miles of this to endure. Luckily for me, I don't live in a city where I have to endure that on a regular basis.
    Having commuted 50-100 miles daily in POS manual transmission vehicles from LI to NYC and in heavy Miami traffic, and never having to replace a clutch over hundreds of thousands of miles for 35 years personally, this hasn't been my experience.

    Also unless you're coming to a full stop there's not much reason to put a small car in first gear.

  9. #59
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    my uncle taught me at age 13 how to drive a manual (VW bug) in about 20 min.

    it ain't brain surgery.
    the 45th POTUS is inept, corrupt, and a pathological liar. and those may be his better qualities...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    When you drive an automatic your left leg obviously just rests.

    Speak for yourself, I use my left foot to operate the brake (at times, even when driving a manual). Real drivers left foot brake!




    These days, I could care less about my daily driver being a manual, no it is not hard to drive a manual in traffic, but it is not fun either. My recreational car is a manual everything though



    .

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Speak for yourself, I use my left foot to operate the brake (at times, even when driving a manual). Real drivers left foot brake!




    These days, I could care less about my daily driver being a manual, no it is not hard to drive a manual in traffic, but it is not fun either. My recreational car is a manual everything though



    .
    WHY??????

    when I'm a passenger I want it to be an uneventful experience. I don't want to do any driving requiring a cage, harness, helmet, helmet tethered to a reel.

    Whenever im a passenger in an automatic driven by someone who uses two feet, I regret the trip.

    As as for driving a manual in traffic, it's nothing, very little difference than an automatic, you barely think about it. Unless your driving style is not going with the flow and you're always on the gas or brake driving herky jerky.

    Hence what I noted about most people being terrible drivers.
    Last edited by Jackhammer; 03-02-2017 at 10:20 AM.

  12. #62
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    In today's news:

    "Cleveland police say an 18-year-old serial carjacker was arrested after his accomplice couldn't drive a stick shift even with some coaching from the victim.

    Cleveland.com reports Damari Wayne was charged with robbery. Police say he committed three armed carjackings between Feb. 11 and Feb. 21.

    Police say Wayne and a 17-year-old boy attempted to steal a 23-year-old man's car on Feb. 21. The younger teen got in the driver's seat but was unable to operate the vehicle. That's when police say the duo turned the gun on their victim while he tried to explain how to use the gears.

    The duo eventually got frustrated and ran off with the man's cellphone, which police used to pinpoint their location."

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    WHY??????

    when I'm a passenger I want it to be an uneventful experience. I don't want to do any driving requiring a cage, harness, helmet, helmet tethered to a reel.

    Whenever im a passenger in an automatic driven by someone who uses two feet, I regret the trip.

    As as for driving a manual in traffic, it's nothing, very little difference than an automatic, you barely think about it. Unless your driving style is not going with the flow and you're always on the gas or brake driving herky jerky.

    Hence what I noted about most people being terrible drivers.

    You're confusing effort with comfort and convenience. As I said driving a manual in traffic is not difficult, it's just annoying and more work. And you must not have driven in real traffic, there is no going with the flow, it's come to a complete stop, take out of gear, wait, put back into gear, and then go. There is no pleasure or benefit to driving a manual in such situations.
    I've been driving manuals for 30 years, and used to think "all manual, all the time", but now my daily driving consists of using a practical family car to take the kids to daycare, etc., running errands, and freeway road trips with a load of gear for work, and I realized a manual adds nothing to this kind of driving. Besides you can't find too many practical family cars that come with a manual and I have a sports car for my manual driving fun, different tools for different jobs, so why would I need or want one to daily drive?

    Whenever im a passenger in an automatic driven by someone who uses two feet, I regret the trip.
    Then you've never been in a car with someone who knows what they are doing. You would not know I am using my left foot to brake.
    As to the why: Two pedals, two feet!
    Aside from high performance driving, it is just safer. I've avoided collisions more times than I can remember using LFB, (it is especially useful in parking lots). You can read a potential situation and hover your left foot over the brake which greatly reduces the reaction time, the difference can be 3/4s or more, which translates to about 66 feet at 60mph, that's a lot. It also eliminates accidentally hitting the accelerator, pedal confusion or getting your foot caught Unintended Acceleration Pedal Error ( UAPE) happens quite frequently and causes thousands of accidents each year.

    And since you seem think it is some "badge of honor" to use your left foot to clutch, LFB gives you something to do with your left foot.
    Last edited by MoPho; 03-02-2017 at 11:45 AM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    You're confusing effort with comfort and convenience. As I said driving a manual in traffic is not difficult, it's just annoying and more work. And you must not have driven in real traffic, there is no going with the flow, it's come to a complete stop, take out of gear, wait, put back into gear, and then go. There is no pleasure or benefit to driving a manual in such situations.
    I've been driving manuals for 30 years, and used to think "all manual, all the time", but now my daily driving consists of using a practical family car to take the kids to daycare, etc., running errands, and freeway road trips with a load of gear for work, and I realized a manual adds nothing to this kind of driving. Besides you can't find too many practical family cars that come with a manual and I have a sports car for my manual driving fun, different tools for different jobs, so why would I need or want one to daily drive?



    Then you've never been in a car with someone who knows what they are doing. You would not know I am using my left foot to brake.
    As to the why: Two pedals, two feet!
    Aside from high performance driving, it is just safer. I've avoided collisions more times than I can remember using LFB, (it is especially useful in parking lots). You can read a potential situation and hover your left foot over the brake which greatly reduces the reaction time, the difference can be 3/4s or more, which translates to about 66 feet at 60mph, that's a lot. It also eliminates accidentally hitting the accelerator, pedal confusion or getting your foot caught Unintended Acceleration Pedal Error ( UAPE) happens quite frequently and causes thousands of accidents each year.

    And since you seem think it is some "badge of honor" to use your left foot to clutch, LFB gives you something to do with your left foot.

    First off, I'm not confusing anything.

    Second, we disagree with basically EVERYTHING wrt driving.

    Third, you ever consider covering the brake with the right foot in parking lots for safety?

  15. #65
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    when taking my TX CDL test, there were points deducted if the left foot touched the brake at any time, even while stopped and shifting to Park.
    the 45th POTUS is inept, corrupt, and a pathological liar. and those may be his better qualities...

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    "There's nothing sexy about women driving a standard either."
    a woman driving a porsche with a manual transmission is several times more sexy than if the porsche were an automatic. this has been scientifically proven.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  17. #67
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    If you're trying to argue that using a manual is superior to an automatic for some reason in everyday driving you're nuts. Anyone can learn and millions of people have driven manuals for decades, but it sure ain't easier or more convenient. You may argue it's more "fun" or you get a "better connection to the car" but for just driving along it's just more tedious, especially when you are in stop and go traffic, especially on hills.

    Manual trannys vary quite a bit by manufacturer also (not kode). When I drive our Hyundai SUV with a stick I cannot for the life of me accelerate as smoothly as in our Honda car with a manual. The clutch and shifter just aren't refined.
    "I felt bad because I couldn't wheelie; until I met a man with no bicycle"

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by nOOky View Post
    If you're trying to argue that using a manual is superior to an automatic for some reason in everyday driving you're nuts. Anyone can learn and millions of people have driven manuals for decades, but it sure ain't easier or more convenient. You may argue it's more "fun" or you get a "better connection to the car" but for just driving along it's just more tedious, especially when you are in stop and go traffic, especially on hills.

    Manual trannys vary quite a bit by manufacturer also (not kode). When I drive our Hyundai SUV with a stick I cannot for the life of me accelerate as smoothly as in our Honda car with a manual. The clutch and shifter just aren't refined.
    If you're proficient driving a manual it basically doesn't matter is what I'm saying.

    If you're giving all this thought to it, you're not as proficient as you think you are.

    If you're proficient it becomes second nature and you're not giving much if any thought to it even if you're in stop and go traffic in hills.

    Being that the biggest cause of accidents is distracted driving, maybe using a couple percent of your attention span on operating the vehicle isn't a bad thing?

    It's kind of like clipless pedals. Who even thinks about this $hit??

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    First off, I'm not confusing anything.

    Second, we disagree with basically EVERYTHING wrt driving.
    Because you are wrong.


    Third, you ever consider covering the brake with the right foot in parking lots for safety?
    Yes, and then I reach down with my hand to operate the throttle pedal

    Maybe you should consider thinking outside your little [gear]box...




    Quote Originally Posted by nOOky View Post
    If you're trying to argue that using a manual is superior to an automatic for some reason in everyday driving you're nuts. Anyone can learn and millions of people have driven manuals for decades, but it sure ain't easier or more convenient. You may argue it's more "fun" or you get a "better connection to the car" but for just driving along it's just more tedious, especially when you are in stop and go traffic, especially on hills.


    This!



    .

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Because you are wrong.




    Yes, and then I reach down with my hand to operate the throttle pedal

    Maybe you should consider thinking outside your little [gear]box...








    This!



    .
    Wrong answer. Considering what the thread is about you're talking out of your ass.

    1 in 10,000 people are racing cars which is the ONLY place left foot braking is even contemplated.

    I knew you'd say something stupid about covering the brake with the right foot which just demonstrates where your head is at.

    WHY, in normal driving, WOULD YOU ALWAYS NEED TO BE ON THE THROTTLE?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrac View Post
    Most of my family learned to drive a stick on our 1976 Datsun B210. I never found the ability laudable or impressive, .......
    i once drove one of those. Trust me, there is NOTHING "laudable or impressive" about ANYTHING on that car.....
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtox View Post
    my uncle taught me at age 13 how to drive a manual (VW bug) in about 20 min.

    it ain't brain surgery.
    I learned how to drive a manual when I bought a 1966 VW. On the drive home with the car...
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    i think the WHOLE reason for the existence of threads like this is that people DO believe there is some kind of difficulty in being competent driving a manual transmission.

    I also dont believe Senna's genius was operating the gearbox. He'd be just as successful if not more so driving today.

    That video was very odd in that Senna helped develop that car in order to make it easy for non experts to drive fast. Maybe he/Acura was worried enthusiasts would see it as TOO easy to drive so he had to drive on the ragged edge.

    But at any rate, shifting gears isn't the talent of these guys. The same way it isn't the equipment or technical mastery with Valentino Rossi, golfers, guitarists, cyclists or drivers.

    It's a small part of it.

    People are generally just horrible drivers. They follow too closely, they're not aware they're in the left lane driving 60 mph, or three abreast, they're always on the brakes.

    The Senna video, he made it look hard, which applies to like .001% of all driving.

    I'd like to see a stair stepped thing where he demonstrates how he acquired that talent and also how he drives normally. Kinda like that movie where Niki Lauda is driving normally and then beats the $hit out of the BMW to entertain the race fans in the back and impress his skeptical future wife in the passenger seat.

    also, if it only takes a few hours to get the feel for it, why are supposedly skilled drivers complaining about driving a manual transmission in stop and go traffic? They don't have the feel for the clutch? It takes the same small effort to move the right foot from the gas to the brake or to just cover the brake in heavy traffic.
    Obviously, Senna wasn't just proficient at operating the gearbox. But his command was certainly impressive.

    Part of the reason Senna is driving like that is that the Acura NSX is a street car designed to be safe for the average driver. As such, it's likely designed for mild understeer at the limit and to avoid a "loose" feeling. A lot of what Senna is doing in that video is intentionally upsetting the balance of the car to keep it right on the edge of adhesion.

    Senna acquired the talent by working his way up through Go-Karts into low level racing series until he made it big time with F1- pretty much the way all formula one drivers do. There's a great documentary that shows some of his early racing footage (though not with a cockpit view given the cameras of the time). Of course, these days F1 cars use paddles. Given how quick today's F1 cars are, I don't think anybody alive could shift fast enough without a paddle shift.

    As for traffic. Yes, it only takes a few hours to get a basic feel such that you CAN drive it in traffic, but mastery takes consistently driving a manual transmission. Traffic doesn't bother me one bit, but I've been almost exclusively a manual driver for a decade. Some cars are more difficult than others. And some people just don't like having to use their left foot for whatever reason. Personally, I get less bored when I can mess around with the clutch and shifter a bit.

    Regarding left foot braking: racing driving with a manual equipped car uses both right and left foot braking. Drivers generally use the right foot to brake coming into the corner (they also use the same foot on the throttle to rev-match the down shift). Then, they may left foot brake in the corner (trail braking) in order to balance the car (they will be on the throttle and brake at the same time). This is usually just a touch of brake- just enough to slightly shift the balance of the car forward. In a paddle shift transmission, the driver always left foot brakes while racing. For street cars and normal driving, I don't see all that much advantage- most who use left foot braking for normal street driving are pretty jerky with it.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhammer View Post
    If you're proficient driving a manual it basically doesn't matter is what I'm saying.
    Wanting convenience and practicality in you car has NOTHING to do with proficiency. NOTHING!

    As above, these days the only good argument for having a manual is because it is more fun and gives you more connection to the car IF you are driving a car that is fun and worthy of having a connection to


    Wrong answer. Considering what the thread is about you're talking out of your ass.
    Ahhh, no...


    1 in 10,000 people are racing cars which is the ONLY place left foot braking is even contemplated.
    Wrong! You are the one talking out your ass.



    WHY, in normal driving, WOULD YOU ALWAYS NEED TO BE ON THE THROTTLE?

    Because that is what makes the car move...

    Let me give you an example, you are driving your car on a 50+ mph two lane road and you come upon an intersection with a car moving towards it, you don't know if they are going to stop, you can hover your left foot over the brake "just in case" without having to remove your right foot from the throttle and decelerate (most likely) unnecessarily.

    Another, you're driving through a parking lot, you need your right foot on the throttle in order for the car to move in a forward trajectory, you keep your left foot over the brake in case someone backs out, or a pedestrian runs out between cars, etc..

    Another, you're pulling out of a driveway or intersection and upon taking a second look to make sure it's clear you see another vehicle coming fast that you missed or underestimated at first glance, your left foot is already over the brake to stop you quicker.

    And so on...


    Now perhaps you are being so stubborn because you don't know how to left brake, but don't worry, with some practice it is fairly easy to learn to do smoothly, lots of people do it. When you become proficient at left foot braking, it won't matter if you use your left or your right.


    https://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/1...-it-safer.html

    https://www.thrillist.com/cars/natio...fety-explained


    Left Foot Braking Method

    .




    .
    Last edited by MoPho; 03-02-2017 at 02:57 PM.

  25. #75
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    This thread will be deleted when Tesla are our corporate overlords and everyone has an electric car.

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