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Thread: Atlas Shrugged

  1. #1
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    Atlas Shrugged

    If you haven't read, or didn't understand it, please don't reply . Otherwise, is there anyone who believes the " Looters" were the heroes in that story ? I suspect our President does .

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    I don't even know where to start...

    If you want to read a proper work on libertarianism, read Nozick's Anarchy State and Utopia. Atlas Shrugged was grade A drivel.

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    sweet baby jesus this is a dumb post. Rand fiction? really?

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    joe
    'They say gold paint on the palace gates comes from the teeth of pensioners
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    That book is beating a dead horse. I believe the word pedantic applies.

    Any society, constructed of hand-picked individuals will flourish. Its the undesirables who muck things up. Communism would work if everyone were a genius, and driven to succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric

    I don't even know where to start...

    If you want to read a proper work on libertarianism, read Nozick's Anarchy State and Utopia. Atlas Shrugged was grade A drivel.

    none of these cats like Nozick. I don't understand why.


    Virginia Postrel is good too, imo.
    .
    .

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    I tried to read that book once at the insistence of my brother who was going through his Ayn Rand phase at the time(which thank fully has passed). I got to the famous speech and stopped reading almost immediately. I discovered Noam Chomsky shortly afterwards and realized through his writings that the key to understanding politics is through examining difficult facts rather than expressing idealistic platitudes.

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    http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/10/0...tlas-shrugged/
    That said, itís a totally ridiculous book which can be summed up as Sociopathic idealized nerds collapse society because they donít get enough hugs. (This is, incidentally, where you can start your popcorn munching.) Indeed, the enduring popularity of Atlas Shrugged lies in the fact that it is nerd revenge porn ó if youíre an nerd of an engineering-ish stripe who remembers all too well being slammed into your locker by a bunch of football ********s, then the idea that people like you could make all those ********s suffer by ďgoing GaltĒ has a direct line to the pleasure centers of your brain. Iíll show you! the nerds imagine themselves crying. Iíll show you all! And then they disappear into a crevasse that Google Maps will not show because the Google people are our kind of people, and a year later they come out and everyone who was ever mean to them will have starved. Then these nerds can begin again, presumably with the help of robots, because any child in the post-Atlas Shrugged world who canít figure out how to run a smelter within ten minutes of being pushed through the birth canal will be left out for the coyotes. Which if nothing else solves the problem of day care.

    All of this is fine, if one recognizes that the idealized world Ayn Rand has created to facilitate her wishful theorizing has no more logical connection to our real one than a world in which an author has imagined humanity ruled by intelligent cups of yogurt. This is most obviously revealed by the fact that in Ayn Randís world, a man who self-righteously instigates the collapse of society, thereby inevitably killing millions if not billions of people, is portrayed as a messiah figure rather than as a genocidal prick, which is what heíd be anywhere else. Yes, heís a genocidal prick with excellent engineering skills. Good for him. Heís still a genocidal prick. Indeed, if John Galt were portrayed as an intelligent cup of yogurt rather than poured into human form, this would be obvious. Oh my god, that cup of yogurt wants to kill most of humanity to make a philosophical point! Somebody eat him quick! And that would be that.

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    Sociopathic idealized nerds collapse society because they donít get enough hugs

    Quote Originally Posted by LMWEL
    If you haven't read, or didn't understand it, please don't reply . Otherwise, is there anyone who believes the " Looters" were the heroes in that story ? I suspect our President does .
    John Scalzi has it about right:
    it’s a totally ridiculous book which can be summed up as Sociopathic idealized nerds collapse society because they don’t get enough hugs. (This is, incidentally, where you can start your popcorn munching.) Indeed, the enduring popularity of Atlas Shrugged lies in the fact that it is nerd revenge porn — if you’re an nerd of an engineering-ish stripe who remembers all too well being slammed into your locker by a bunch of football d*ckheads, then the idea that people like you could make all those d*ckheads suffer by “going Galt” has a direct line to the pleasure centers of your brain. I’ll show you! the nerds imagine themselves crying. I’ll show you all! And then they disappear into a crevasse that Google Maps will not show because the Google people are our kind of people, and a year later they come out and everyone who was ever mean to them will have starved. Then these nerds can begin again, presumably with the help of robots, because any child in the post-Atlas Shrugged world who can’t figure out how to run a smelter within ten minutes of being pushed through the birth canal will be left out for the coyotes. Which if nothing else solves the problem of day care.
    ...
    Indeed, if John Galt were portrayed as an intelligent cup of yogurt rather than poured into human form, this would be obvious. Oh my god, that cup of yogurt wants to kill most of humanity to make a philosophical point! Somebody eat him quick! And that would be that.
    ...
    Rand did spend a lot of time getting high on her own supply, which most pushers are smart enough not to do, and at the moment, her claque of enthusiastic nerds certainly seems to be the most energetic, which doesn’t really please me. I wish they could be more like Heinlein nerds, who keep to their own freeholds.
    // Edit to add: coreyb beat me to the punch, and posted this same quotation while I was still editing mine.
    Fredke commented in your thread. You won't believe what happens next!

  10. #10
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    LOL! I guess we think alike. Simultaneous postings, pulling the exact same quotation from Scalzi's review.
    Fredke commented in your thread. You won't believe what happens next!

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    Who here believes that pixar's "Rattatouile" is a point-by-point take down of Ayn Rand's "the fountainhead" and destroys all Rand's points while managing to make a talking rat a more believable character AND not having a sexual encounter that sounds a lot like sexual assault?

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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Who here believes that pixar's "Rattatouile" is a point-by-point take down of Ayn Rand's "the fountainhead" and destroys all Rand's points while managing to make a talking rat a more believable character AND not having a sexual encounter that sounds a lot like sexual assault?
    I have to admit I'd never considered Rattatouile as a subtle critique of The Fountainhead.

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    I'd bet..

    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Who here believes that pixar's "Rattatouile" is a point-by-point take down of Ayn Rand's "the fountainhead" and destroys all Rand's points while managing to make a talking rat a more believable character AND not having a sexual encounter that sounds a lot like sexual assault?
    the president does.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahueh
    sweet baby jesus this is a dumb post. Rand fiction? really?
    Sorry , My mistake . I guess I didn't consider what kind of Americans post politics on a cycling forum . Questionable at best .

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMWEL
    Sorry , My mistake . I guess I didn't consider what kind of Americans post politics on a cycling forum . Questionable at best .
    Post of the week. Questionable Americans. I friggin LOVE it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMWEL
    I guess I didn't consider what kind of Americans post politics on a cycling forum.
    The kind that can spot bad fiction unrelated to the real world as bad fiction unrelated to the real world?

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    I dunno

    ask Alan Greenspan how following Ayn Rand wound up for him

    then get back to us
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  18. #18
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    Didn't read Atlas shrugged.

    I found The Fountainhead to be fairly motivating and inspiring. I read it just after design school and it struck a chord. I didn't see it so much as a novel about philosophy but as a story of a young architect. The idea that most people (clients) are stupid really comes across well and still resonates with me today. I really identified with the Frank Lloyd Wright character.

    I like my work. Now, if I could only find a way to eliminate the client and still be able to create.

    Wouldn't want to elect a politician with this same philosophy but it does have some appeal to artists.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMWEL
    If you haven't read, or didn't understand it, please don't reply . Otherwise, is there anyone who believes the " Looters" were the heroes in that story ? I suspect our President does .
    I read the book...
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    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolando
    Didn't read Atlas shrugged.

    I found The Fountainhead to be fairly motivating and inspiring. I read it just after design school and it struck a chord. I didn't see it so much as a novel about philosophy but as a story of a young architect. The idea that most people (clients) are stupid really comes across well and still resonates with me today. I really identified with the Frank Lloyd Wright character.

    I like my work. Now, if I could only find a way to eliminate the client and still be able to create.

    Wouldn't want to elect a politician with this same philosophy but it does have some appeal to artists.
    Ditto.

    Though after a while, some of it really started to bug me. Howard Roarke really wants to have it both ways- he wants total ownership of his work despite the fact that he is not building it. That's not right. Should I be allowed to call a magazine and say "stop the presses" because my client has added a violator to an ad I designed? Once they pay me, it's theirs to do with as they please.

    And then there's Pixar's Ratatouille, which takes the fountainhead apart and points out how wrong it is. In it, Ratatouille never gets universal recognition for his work, but instead allows a less talented bumbling fool to get all the credit. And in the end, he's happy. Compare this to Rand's Roarke/Keating relationship. Rand wrote it as a parasitic relationship, pixar wrote it as a symbiotic one. And in the real world, Pixar is right- You can be creative as hell, but if you can't work with your clients to create what they need, yer gonna fail and no one will ever want to work with you.

    Then there's Rand's take on criticism, which seems to be a fairly self-serving "how dare anyone question the artist?" bit of drivel. Contrast that with Pixar's take- artists and critics serve each other- the artist creates, the critic points out where things could be better.

    Rand writes her creatives like spoiled children. In the real world, there will always be compromise. I can design the most amazing brochure in the world, but it has to serve my client, not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMWEL
    If you haven't read, or didn't understand it, please don't reply . Otherwise, is there anyone who believes the " Looters" were the heroes in that story ? I suspect our President does .
    Ayn Rand's version of capitalism: You should get paid if you deserve it by being great, without having to go to the trouble of making a product people want and selling it. Welfare for geniuses.

    Adam Smith's version of capitalism: Read the pin-factory example. John Galt, the most brilliant pin-maker of all can maybe make a couple of dozen pins a day. A dozen moronic looters, breaking the process down into an assembly line, can make 40,000 pins a day. And even in the design of the technology that the pin-factory uses, that too comes more from hundreds of anonymous folks making small improvements than from a handful of indispensable geniuses.

    The backbone of the nation is not a few brilliant misunderstood geniuses, like Galt, but millions of people who just go to work and do their jobs.
    Fredke commented in your thread. You won't believe what happens next!

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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Ditto.

    Though after a while, some of it really started to bug me. Howard Roarke really wants to have it both ways- he wants total ownership of his work despite the fact that he is not building it. That's not right. Should I be allowed to call a magazine and say "stop the presses" because my client has added a violator to an ad I designed? Once they pay me, it's theirs to do with as they please.

    And then there's Pixar's Ratatouille, which takes the fountainhead apart and points out how wrong it is. In it, Ratatouille never gets universal recognition for his work, but instead allows a less talented bumbling fool to get all the credit. And in the end, he's happy. Compare this to Rand's Roarke/Keating relationship. Rand wrote it as a parasitic relationship, pixar wrote it as a symbiotic one. And in the real world, Pixar is right- You can be creative as hell, but if you can't work with your clients to create what they need, yer gonna fail and no one will ever want to work with you.

    Then there's Rand's take on criticism, which seems to be a fairly self-serving "how dare anyone question the artist?" bit of drivel. Contrast that with Pixar's take- artists and critics serve each other- the artist creates, the critic points out where things could be better.

    Rand writes her creatives like spoiled children. In the real world, there will always be compromise. I can design the most amazing brochure in the world, but it has to serve my client, not me.
    I thought you were joking with the first post about Ratatouille. Going to have to rent the movie and view it with a more philosophical eye.

    Yes, The Fountainhead starts spinning out of control towards the end of the book with all the raping and blowing stuff up but the development of the story before that is pretty good.

    In my profession, yacht design, there are the rare designers that design something and build it before there is a client. Very successful designers sometimes manage to have a boat built for themselves as well. Those are the most interesting designs.

    But the reality is, like you said, the work has to meet the client's needs and tastes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolando
    I thought you were joking with the first post about Ratatouille. Going to have to rent the movie and view it with a more philosophical eye.

    Yes, The Fountainhead starts spinning out of control towards the end of the book with all the raping and blowing stuff up but the development of the story before that is pretty good.

    In my profession, yacht design, there are the rare designers that design something and build it before there is a client. Very successful designers sometimes manage to have a boat built for themselves as well. Those are the most interesting designs.

    But the reality is, like you said, the work has to meet the client's needs and tastes.
    There's a reason why Frank Lloyd Wright got utterly buried by Mies Van Der Roh...

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    and we..

    Quote Originally Posted by coreyb
    The kind that can spot bad fiction unrelated to the real world as bad fiction unrelated to the real world?
    have a winner!! I picked up the book a while back...didn't get that far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bahueh
    have a winner!! I picked up the book a while back...didn't get that far.
    I slogged through it and finished it. It's simply not a very good book and I even find certain aspects of her philosophy appealing. Then again, I disagree with a lot of it too, and the "cult" that has grown up around it and her is rather ridiculous.

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