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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    I don't believe in propaganda, which is why I often make fun of Faux News and the like. Rather, I believe in observing ppl's actions and coming to conclusions based on that.

    Based on the GOP's own actions, which were to obstruct Obama at every turn from Day One, they are indeed the Party of No™. The Dems may have pointed that out for political reasons, but the GOP are the ones who made the name-tag, signed 'Party of No' to it, and stuck it on their own foreheads.

    Actions have consequences.

    Far as the rest goes, you are obviously sympathetic to the Teabagger position. I don't have a problem with that, as I think that one of 3 things will happen regarding the Tea Party and the fiscal cliff, all of which will be good for Democrats:

    1) Tea Party wins the internal GOP debate over the cliff and the GOP stonewalls and drives the nation over the cliff. Most of the public then blames the GOP for that and the ensuing recession, and the Repubs are eventually forced to compromise anyway, while looking like crap the entire time.

    2) Tea Party and GOP leadership battle each other to a standstill. Long, protracted GOP civil war ensues. GOP looks dysfunctional and 'not ready for prime time', and becomes very much a 'party divided'.

    3) GOP leadership smacks down the Tea Party and does a deal fairly quickly. Tea Partiers throw a sh!t-fit, take their ball and go home. GOP coalition shrinks as some Teabaggers leave the party, or perhaps even start their own.


    Looks like a win-win-win to me. The only way out for the GOP would be for the Teabaggers to suddenly become reasonable and say, "We're okay with a deal here because of the political consequences of not doing one, but long-term we're still going to stick to our principles."

    I kinda doubt that most of them are going to be able to do that, since Teabaggers tend to see compromise as inherently wrong. This plays pretty nicely right into Democrats' hands.

    Deep down, I have to wonder if Obama/the Dems aren't secretly hoping that the Repubs will be unreasonable.
    .
    A deal can be reached with the split bush cuts off the table. Negotiate the other issues, defense and govt support programs, see where we can get and then restructure the tax codes so that we all have a dog in the fight. It's clear to see that you don't believe in propaganda........my bad.
    Last edited by Snakebit; 12-05-2012 at 03:03 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    The problem here is the at the proposed fixs to the current "fiscal cliff" is nothing more than voting to push the real fixes to our fiscal problems down the road.

    Notice all the "political" spin going on here. Who gives a chit how anybody looks. Lets start dealing with the cold hard truth that we are committed to spend WAY more than our economy can sustain long term. Who is going to put on the big boy pants and deal with that? Neither side is being honest.
    I actually agree with you in large part, but another cold hard truth is that politics *always* matters. That too is a 'big boy pants' reality, and it's both sides' fault.

    In the end, both sides will likely have to swallow things they don't like if a meaningful deal is to be had. If the Repubs want serious, true entitlement reform, then they are going to have accept things like tax increases on the wealthy and defense cuts, i.e. shared sacrifice. And of course, vice-versa goes for the Dems as well.

    Both sides would LOVE to slaughter the other side's sacred cows while sparing their own. But that isn't realistic. There's really only two outcomes*: ALL the sacred cows get slaughtered, or none of them do (i.e. kick the can down the road).

    But some ppl would like to pretend that isn't so, and talk about 'holding the line' and 'standing on principle'. Those ppl do not get it.





    * exception: if the Repubs play their political cards very poorly, most of Obama's cows may come home while many of the GOP's do not... this should be a concern
    .
    Last edited by SystemShock; 12-05-2012 at 03:08 PM.
    Monkhouse: I want to die like my Dad did, peacefully, in his sleep... not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    xxl: Your post is so stupid, if stupid had a cognitively-impaired relative, it would be your post.

    Platypius:
    I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    AM999: Romney 320 Electoral votes, Obama 218. Colorado profs' prediction model, 100% accurate since 1980.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day, it blew my teenage mind.


  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    I actually agree with you in large part, but another cold hard truth is that politics *always* matters. That too is a 'big boy pants' reality, and it's both sides' fault.

    In the end, both sides will likely have to swallow things they don't like if a meaningful deal is to be had. If the Repubs want serious, true entitlement reform, then they are going to have accept things like tax increases on the wealthy and defense cuts, i.e. shared sacrifice. And of course, vice-versa goes for the Dems as well.

    Both sides would LOVE to slaughter the other side's sacred cows while sparing their own. But that isn't realistic. There's really only two outcomes*: ALL the sacred cows get slaughtered, or none of them do (i.e. kick the can down the road).

    But some ppl would like to pretend that isn't so, and talk about 'holding the line' and 'standing on principle'. Those ppl do not get it.





    * exception: if the Repubs play their political cards very poorly, most of Obama's cows may come home while many of the GOP's do not... this should be a concern
    .
    You lefties keep predicting that republicans will cease to exist if they keep on being Republicans. I'm willing to take that risk and think Boehner should be as well. Let'er bump.

  4. #29
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    I'm glad that Boehner is finally showing some common sense.
    Mike

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    Hang it upside your wall
    You know by that, baby
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    You lefties keep predicting that republicans will cease to exist if they keep on being Republicans. I'm willing to take that risk and think Boehner should be as well. Let'er bump.
    What does "being Republican" mean to you?

    I ask because I imagine there are as many identities as there are people.
    I hate you all

    j/k lol kthxbye!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    What does "being Republican" mean to you?

    I ask because I imagine there are as many identities as there are people.
    Right now it means not supporting Obama's fiscal policies.

    I think you're right about the diversity, that fits Democrats too but it isn't condusive to our angry tirades here on PO. Somebody has to be bad cop.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Right now it means not supporting Obama's fiscal policies.

    I think you're right about the diversity, that fits Democrats too but it isn't condusive to our angry tirades here on PO. Somebody has to be bad cop.
    So "being Republican" means being against Obama. This may be sort of where the party of no thing comes from.

    But I get you drift, frankly speaking its amazing how long you all have been making it work in here...
    I hate you all

    j/k lol kthxbye!

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    You really believe your own propaganda don't you?
    As do you....and most of us.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    a whole bunch of cuts )1.2 trillion) but none to the military

    and no revenue increases

    they seem to be operating under the notion where they have some juice

    if nothing gets done, automatic cuts to the military (half of the proposed 1.2 trillion)
    tax increases

    then the Dems get to propose a middle class cut in January

    the GOP should be trying to mitigate its losses now not going for a win
    But try to pass all those spending increases back.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    The problem here is the at the proposed fixs to the current "fiscal cliff" is nothing more than voting to push the real fixes to our fiscal problems down the road.

    Notice all the "political" spin going on here. Who gives a chit how anybody looks. Lets start dealing with the cold hard truth that we are committed to spend WAY more than our economy can sustain long term. Who is going to put on the big boy pants and deal with that? Neither side is being honest.
    Well said. At least if we go over the cliff we get some spending cuts.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    The problem here is the at the proposed fixs to the current "fiscal cliff" is nothing more than voting to push the real fixes to our fiscal problems down the road.

    Notice all the "political" spin going on here. Who gives a chit how anybody looks. Lets start dealing with the cold hard truth that we are committed to spend WAY more than our economy can sustain long term. Who is going to put on the big boy pants and deal with that? Neither side is being honest.
    Agreed - the real economic problem of the current $16 Trillion Debt growing at a run rate of ~ $1 Trillion per year is not being addressed at all by Barry & Co. He is intent on taking the tax rate increase on the rich class warfare scalp regardless of how may jobs that will cost in the small business sector (estimates range from 200K (CBO) to 700K (E&Y)). Barry can get the revenue from eliminating deductions and loopholes but he wants the scalp. And is refusing to discuss any form of entitlement reform which is the driver of the $87 Trillion unfunded liability that is prominent on the US Balance Sheet which nobody ever sees. And to top that off he is demanding that the Debt Limit be eliminated thus putting no legislative check on spending - the plastic card would have an infinite credit limit.

    Barry isn't leading and will most likely get what he wants with respect to the tax rate increases. But he will then have to live with the consequences. An alternate strategy might be to allow the fiscal cliff to happen and then for the PUBs to quickly pass legislation reinstating the Bush tax rates for all brackets as well as eliminating the sequestor but that does nothing about spending cuts. Sorry state of affairs - short term politics over riding the national interest.

    Anybody see this - Simpson Ganghum style - The Can Kicks Back:

    The Can Kicks Back

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    You lefties keep predicting that republicans will cease to exist if they keep on being Republicans.
    I think parties have to evolve with the times and change as America changes, or risk becoming irrelevant.

    If 'keep on being Republicans' means stubbornly never changing, then yes, demographics will make it at first hard, and then eventually almost impossible, for the GOP to win any Presidential elections going forward. They'll eventually become a permanent minority in Congress as well.

    It'll take awhile, but it'll happen. It's already starting to... '012 is just the beginning. The GOP can't continue to lose 80% of the rapidly-expanding minority vote, while appealing almost exclusively to a white base that is a shrinking percentage of the electorate. Not to mention that younger voters are fairly heavily Dem, while older voters (who are more likely to vote Republican) are dying off.

    So, if they go the stubborn 'hell no, we'll never change' route, the Repubs will represent the hell out of their base, but their base will be a shrinking minority, and the GOP will wind up being a regional party. That's the danger.

    Part of me has zero problem with 'Republicans keeping on being Republicans', as that will benefit the Dems more and more going forward.

    But another part of me realizes that one-party rule probably won't be great for the nation in the long-run, and would like to see the GOP evolve and be as competitive as possible in the new 'very big tent electorate' that America is becoming.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to die like my Dad did, peacefully, in his sleep... not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    xxl: Your post is so stupid, if stupid had a cognitively-impaired relative, it would be your post.

    Platypius:
    I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    AM999: Romney 320 Electoral votes, Obama 218. Colorado profs' prediction model, 100% accurate since 1980.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day, it blew my teenage mind.


  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    I think parties have to evolve with the times and change as America changes, or risk becoming irrelevant.

    If 'keep on being Republicans' means stubbornly never changing, then yes, demographics will make it at first hard, and then eventually almost impossible, for the GOP to win any Presidential elections going forward. They'll eventually become a permanent minority in Congress as well.

    It'll take awhile, but it'll happen. It's already starting to... '012 is just the beginning. The GOP can't continue to lose 80% of the rapidly-expanding minority vote, while appealing almost exclusively to a white base that is a shrinking percentage of the electorate. Not to mention that younger voters are fairly heavily Dem, while older voters (who are more likely to vote Republican) are dying off.

    So, if they go the stubborn 'hell no, we'll never change' route, the Repubs will represent the hell out of their base, but their base will be a shrinking minority, and the GOP will wind up being a regional party. That's the danger.

    Part of me has zero problem with 'Republicans keeping on being Republicans', as that will benefit the Dems more and more going forward.

    But another part of me realizes that one-party rule probably won't be great for the nation in the long-run, and would like to see the GOP evolve and be as competitive as possible in the new 'very big tent electorate' that America is becoming.
    .
    The easiest way to become irrelevant is to be just like your adversary only not as good at it.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    The easiest way to become irrelevant is to be just like your adversary only not as good at it.
    That assumes that the GOP has only two possible choices going forward:
    either to never change, or to be 'Dems-lite'.

    There are obviously other choices.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to die like my Dad did, peacefully, in his sleep... not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    xxl: Your post is so stupid, if stupid had a cognitively-impaired relative, it would be your post.

    Platypius:
    I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    AM999: Romney 320 Electoral votes, Obama 218. Colorado profs' prediction model, 100% accurate since 1980.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day, it blew my teenage mind.


  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    Well said. At least if we go over the cliff we get some spending cuts.
    and massive unemployment....and the next recession.....
    Not banned yet.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    That assumes that the GOP has only two possible choices going forward:
    either to never change, or to be 'Dems-lite'.

    There are obviously other choices.
    .
    Which would be? There is not a whole range of policy changes that would make them attractive to you and the other PO libs. Maybe they could find a gay woman descendent of Mao married to Che Guevara's son out of Fidel's daughter?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Which [changes] would [that] be?
    That would be for Republicans to decide... and that's the fun, visionary, and hard part.

    But you are obviously suffering from binary thinking if you believe that the ONLY two choices for the GOP are to either be Today's Extreme Republican Party™ or to be Democrat-clones.

    There is not a whole range of policy changes that would make them attractive to you and the other PO libs.
    I'm not sure the goal is for the GOP to become attractive to PO libs... rather, to become more attractive to moderates, non-GOP-leaning independents, women, minorities, and young ppl.

    Those are the groups you're getting crushed by. Can't be the Party of Old, Rich, and/or Angry White Men™ forever. Given the demographics, it's just not electorally sustainable.

    Maybe they could find a gay woman descendent of Mao married to Che Guevara's son out of Fidel's daughter?
    Nah. The person you describe isn't a Muslim. Gotta tick all the boxes.
    .
    Last edited by SystemShock; 12-06-2012 at 07:16 AM.
    Monkhouse: I want to die like my Dad did, peacefully, in his sleep... not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    xxl: Your post is so stupid, if stupid had a cognitively-impaired relative, it would be your post.

    Platypius:
    I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    AM999: Romney 320 Electoral votes, Obama 218. Colorado profs' prediction model, 100% accurate since 1980.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day, it blew my teenage mind.


  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    That would be for Republicans to decide... and that's the fun, visionary, and hard part.

    But you are obviously suffering from binary thinking if you believe that the ONLY two choices for the GOP are to either be Today's Extreme Republican Party™ or to be Democrat-clones.

    I'm not sure the goal is for the GOP to become attractive to PO libs... rather, to become more attractive to moderates, non-GOP-leaning independents, women, minorities, and young ppl.

    Those are the groups you're getting crushed by. Can't be the Party of Old, Rich, and/or Angry White Men™ forever. Given the demographics, it's just not electorally sustainable.

    Nah. The person you describe isn't a Muslim. Gotta tick all the boxes.
    .
    What would you call the one option you give them, linear thinking?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Which would be? There is not a whole range of policy changes that would make them attractive to you and the other PO libs. Maybe they could find a gay woman descendent of Mao married to Che Guevara's son out of Fidel's daughter?
    Of course there are. The Democrats are very disappointing. There are plenty of policy choices the Reps could pick up that would win me over.

    They would probably lose you in the process...
    I hate you all

    j/k lol kthxbye!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Compromise means that they abandon their promises, integrity is sticking to them.
    And leadership means accepting compromise as a necessary means to break stalemates that hinder forward progress.
    Beam me up, baby.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliner View Post
    And leadership means accepting compromise as a necessary means to break stalemates that hinder forward progress.
    Leadership means negotiating compromise as necessary for the good of the nation. What we are seeing is Barry campaigning in favor of taking the tax rate on the rich scalp and ignoring the recent experience in the UK when this was done and the consequent hundreds of thousands of job losses from small business. He can have the revenue (equivalent to the money required to run the government for ~ 8 days) via compromise acceptable to the PUBs but wants the scalp in the interest of fairness regardless of the costs.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    What would you call the one option you give them, linear thinking?
    This is all part of the "southern strategy" don't cha know.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahueh View Post
    and massive unemployment....and the next recession.....
    Depending on your income level the recession never ended.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    Well said. At least if we go over the cliff we get some spending cuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by bahueh View Post
    and massive unemployment....and the next recession.....
    That's my biggest concern. Some analysts are saying that jobs in Q4 may be down 200K from what they would have been due to uncertainty over the economic situation in Q1 of next year. And I believe the CBO has projected that we are more likely than not to have another recession in 2013 if the 'fiscal cliff' is not averted.

    One thing is clear, most people are nervous about this. It is no fun having the Whitehouse and Congress playing games while people, already weary from the slow recovery, are left nerve racked because of politics. Seriously, these people don't seem to really care about the American people and by that I mean neither side. They are lucky this isn't France.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by foto View Post
    Of course there are. The Democrats are very disappointing. There are plenty of policy choices the Reps could pick up that would win me over.

    They would probably lose you in the process...
    But they are the ones being dictated to them as Obama's idea of compromise. Republicans were elected by peopple who don't think like you do and that is where they should place their allegiance. Otherwise, they ain't gonna be making decisions after the next election.

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