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  1. #1
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    "The Dark Side" on Frontline--wow

    Anyone else watch it? Quality journalism from Frontline.

    The whole story--not since 9/11 but since the Nixon era when Cheney and Rumsfeld first formed a powerful team.

    The neocon history of trying to foment their Middle East agenda on Old Man Bush and Clinton--neither were buying.

    And then the day of 9/11, when Rumsfeld began to ask if this was "a chance to get Saddam." Just like that. An opportunity. That direct.

    The conflict between the Pentagon and the CIA--the Pentagon (Rummy) left the CIA operatives in Afghanistan hanging until he demanded and got control--only then Special Ops went in.

    And then all the fabrication of Iraq--the yellowcake, the aluminum tubes, Atta meeting an Iraqi in Prague, mobile weapons labs--all later proved false.

    Tenent's complicity in it all out of extreme personal weakness. And in the face of the most powerful and experienced team of political infighters in memory. No one could beat them. The president is a weak man with little capability to resist.

    Interesting: At one point Bush reviewed it all at a ameeting and asked "Is this all you've got? Because you'll have to find a different way to describe it. People won't buy it."! That is when Tenent said "slam dunk." And then Tenent looked Powell in the eye--Powell was very skeptical--and said it was all "ironclad."

    Cheney and Rumsfeld sitting back and probably laughing at their success.

    Even little old me knew the lies. When I heard Bush speak of Niger during that State of the Union address, I turned to my wife and said "Bush just lied!" Last night David Kay said when he heard it, he turned to HIS wife and said, "Well, we are going to war in Iraq." Becasue he knew there was no reason to include that lie except as a pretext for invasion.

    So this was the true whole story, the way it will be taught to schoolkids, the way history has been written.

    So much more to it--so much evidence and quotes and interviews of participants--absolutely fascinating. Way more than I can indicate here.

    Of course much agreement that a significant victory in Afghanistan, the capture of Bin Laden, too--was squandered to divert forces to Iraq.

    What a show! I think they said available for viewing online at the PBS website.

    I suppose some have noticed that the Republican Congress has cut funding for PBS next year and want to eliminate it entirely.

  2. #2
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    I saw it publicized

    on the dailykos.com. At that point I knew there was no point in watching it. Quality journalism? Not on Frontline.
    A church that doesn't provoke any crisis,
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    on the dailykos.com. At that point I knew there was no point in watching it. Quality journalism? Not on Frontline.
    Money...what's happened to you? You used to be fairly open minded. It must be tough to keep the faith in the GOP camp these days if you have to resort to not watching anything that might differ from your predetermined world-view.
    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    on the dailykos.com. At that point I knew there was no point in watching it. Quality journalism? Not on Frontline.
    examples of lack of journalism from Frontline.

    and, just cause its on PBS doesn't count.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    on the dailykos.com. At that point I knew there was no point in watching it. Quality journalism? Not on Frontline.
    You read kos so you know what to avoid reading?

    Your option to be informed or not, of course. But would it be that damaging to you to change your mind in the face of the facts? You would be better equipped to understand what has happened.

    I for one would be very interested in your informed opinion of it!

    The journalism was impeccable. All information supported by citations and quotes, and interviews with participants. That is why Frontline is so well respected.

    I tell you, it's like watching Shakespeare. Amazing stuff.

    This is the history that will stand the test of time--it can't be avoided in the end.

    Edit: It occurs to me that perhaps you think the name "Dark Side" is spin--but those are Cheney's words.
    Last edited by BadHabit; 06-21-2006 at 09:14 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Edit: It occurs to me that perhaps you think the name "Dark Side" is spin--but those are Cheney's words.
    .....
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    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  7. #7
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    Neo-con standards

    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    You read kos so you know what to avoid reading?

    Your option to be informed or not, of course. But would it be that damaging to you to change your mind in the face of the facts? You would be better equipped to understand what has happened.

    I for one would be very interested in your informed opinion of it!

    The journalism was impeccable. All information supported by citations and quotes, and interviews with participants. That is why Frontline is so well respected.

    I tell you, it's like watching Shakespeare. Amazing stuff.

    This is the history that will stand the test of time--it can't be avoided in the end.

    Edit: It occurs to me that perhaps you think the name "Dark Side" is spin--but those are Cheney's words.
    12345
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    ...............
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  9. #9
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    I saw it last night. As Tenant would say, "It was a slam dunk!"...against the neo cons, that is.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by il sogno
    I saw it last night. As Tenant would say, "It was a slam dunk!"...against the neo cons, that is.
    I bet Our Party Leader Mike Moore had something to do with it. Or at least some other overweight slob that the GOP can launch a smear campaign on to discredit the show.
    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    ...I tell you, it's like watching Shakespeare. Amazing stuff.

    This is the history that will stand the test of time--it can't be avoided in the end.
    I'm a big fan of Frontline myself. I love their stuff, but their work is definately slanted. And, I'm not sure if the Shakespeare comparrison is the way you want to go to make your point. Shakespeare was dramatist, not exactly a disciplined historian.

    I'll have to check my local listings for a re-airing of the Frontline episode. Sounds like a good one to watch.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrumm
    I'm a big fan of Frontline myself. I love their stuff, but their work is definately slanted. And, I'm not sure if the Shakespeare comparrison is the way you want to go to make your point. Shakespeare was dramatist, not exactly a disciplined historian.

    I'll have to check my local listings for a re-airing of the Frontline episode. Sounds like a good one to watch.
    Good on you, jb. I'd really appreciate hearing your critique--if you sense a lot of bias or distortion. I try to have a feel for that, but it's always possible to get carried away.

    I'm no one's Shakespearean scholar. I was just trying to communicate my sense of the personalities at play, the intrigue. Actually, high "drama" is not that bad a description if you ignore the fictitous aspect of the word.

    I forgot they re-air those shows. Heck, even if it has you standing up and yelling at the obnoxious lies, it'll at least be good for a little adrenaline flow. I hope it works out that you can see it and that I am around to read your views.

    It's pretty cool that someone is willing to have an open mind at this late date. I hope I can demonstrate the same.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    It's pretty cool that someone is willing to have an open mind at this late date. I hope I can demonstrate the same.
    Exactly...I am constantly surprised at the number of people who rail on Mike Moore and F 9/11 that have never even seen the film.
    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Anyone else watch it?
    No, I didn't. But I checked the schedule, and it's playing again early this Friday morning. I'll record it.

    But, until then, I have a few questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    And then all the fabrication of Iraq--the yellowcake, the aluminum tubes, Atta meeting an Iraqi in Prague, mobile weapons labs--all later proved false.
    Yes. All of those things are said to be false. But did the show explain that they were "fabrications", or is that just your description?

    This page seems to agree with the SSCI report and Silberman-Robb Committee that the intel was wrong, but no one is claiming it was fabricated.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...hemes/nie.html



    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Even little old me knew the lies. When I heard Bush speak of Niger during that State of the Union address, I turned to my wife and said "Bush just lied!"

    Wow. That's truly impressive. Just how did you know? What information were you aware of in Jan. of '03 to know that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." was a lie? I'd hate to think you just made that up. (and didn't you mean to say "Africa"?)


    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Last night David Kay said when he heard it, he turned to HIS wife and said, "Well, we are going to war in Iraq." Becasue he knew there was no reason to include that lie except as a pretext for invasion.

    Again, is that from the show or another one of your editorial comments?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by d'oh_boy
    No, I didn't. But I checked the schedule, and it's playing again early this Friday morning. I'll record it.

    But, until then, I have a few questions.



    Yes. All of those things are said to be false. But did the show explain that they were "fabrications", or is that just your description?

    This page seems to agree with the SSCI report and Silberman-Robb Committee that the intel was wrong, but no one is claiming it was fabricated.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...hemes/nie.html






    Wow. That's truly impressive. Just how did you know? What information were you aware of in Jan. of '03 to know that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." was a lie? I'd hate to think you just made that up. (and didn't you mean to say "Africa"?)





    Again, is that from the show or another one of your editorial comments?
    Good questions. Each of those allegations was examined separately. In each case, the sources were identified.

    For the mobile labs, it was Curveball---the Chalabi relative. No American had any info on it at all, but Powell used it in the U.N. address. What do you think of that? (More info was provided on it of course, about the conflict of interest and the other Curveball lies discovered, and the fact that the CIA said it was bogus--yet it was used.

    Yellowcake--also examined by others than Wilson and no evidence found--in addition to the clumsy forgery that used names ten years out of date. You can look into that. Very interesting whence that forgery came! The country of Niger is in Africa.

    The tubes--same thing. What happened was that they gave that false info to Judy Miller, who printed it in the NYT. And then the admin (Rice) cited the NYT story to prove her point! Real deceptive, and they knew it.

    How did I know it? I read all about in The New Yorker a month before the State of the Union. Good old Sy Hersh, one of the best of the free press in America. (He exposed My Lai, you know.) It was common knowledge that the tubes story was a bogus plant. Yet Bush used it!! And of course David Kay had personal knowledge of its falsity. Many did.

    The intel was wrong. The intel was planted by the Vice President's office. That's what the show is all about. Being Frontline, and having integrity, and being careful to avoid controversy about this, Frontline does not accuse Cheney of fabricating evidence. That wolud take a tape of Cheney saying: "Here---run with this crap I just invented out of whole cloth." But I challenge you to watch the show and come to a different conclusion.

    Truly amazing stuff, all the stuff we speak of here, just laid right out for you. I hope you get a chance to see it. You will understand. Frontline is a lot better than I am in presenting this.

    Remarkable--in our lifetimes, the government of the country in the hands of a cabal.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Good questions. Each of those allegations was examined separately. In each case, the sources were identified.

    For the mobile labs, it was Curveball---the Chalabi relative. No American had any info on it at all, but Powell used it in the U.N. address. What do you think of that? (More info was provided on it of course, about the conflict of interest and the other Curveball lies discovered, and the fact that the CIA said it was bogus--yet it was used.

    Yellowcake--also examined by others than Wilson and no evidence found--in addition to the clumsy forgery that used names ten years out of date. You can look into that. Very interesting whence that forgery came! The country of Niger is in Africa.

    The tubes--same thing. What happened was that they gave that false info to Judy Miller, who printed it in the NYT. And then the admin (Rice) cited the NYT story to prove her point! Real deceptive, and they knew it.

    How did I know it? I read all about in The New Yorker a month before the State of the Union. Good old Sy Hersh, one of the best of the free press in America. (He exposed My Lai, you know.) It was common knowledge that the tubes story was a bogus plant. Yet Bush used it!! And of course David Kay had personal knowledge of its falsity. Many did.

    The intel was wrong. The intel was planted by the Vice President's office. That's what the show is all about. Being Frontline, and having integrity, and being careful to avoid controversy about this, Frontline does not accuse Cheney of fabricating evidence. That wolud take a tape of Cheney saying: "Here---run with this crap I just invented out of whole cloth." But I challenge you to watch the show and come to a different conclusion.

    Truly amazing stuff, all the stuff we speak of here, just laid right out for you. I hope you get a chance to see it. You will understand. Frontline is a lot better than I am in presenting this.

    Remarkable--in our lifetimes, the government of the country in the hands of a cabal.
    What's "truly amazing" is that you really seem to be unaware that the things the Bush admin. was saying about Iraq's WMD came from the Intelligence community (NIE among other things) and not the NYT or the V.P.'s office.

    Oh, and that Sy Hersh piece you read before the 2003 S.O.T.U?

    Oct. 2003.

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact

  17. #17
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    I AM open minded

    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus Jones II
    Money...what's happened to you? You used to be fairly open minded. It must be tough to keep the faith in the GOP camp these days if you have to resort to not watching anything that might differ from your predetermined world-view.
    Why do you think I was reading Dailykos? Why do you think I listen to NPR? Why do you think I read EJ Dionne? I am VERY open minded. But when Frontline does a story like this, and its on PBS, I am pretty certain they are going to take information and twist it to make their point, and I don't want to spend an hour of my life watching something that isn't going to shed any more light on the subject. A rehash of the same old criticisms (Bush lied! People died!) that I have read/heard countless times before. Maybe I missed a critical piece of information that would have given me my "Aha!" moment, but I can't watch/read/listen to everything available. In economic terms, its scarce resources (time) and unlimited wants (information). We have to make choices, and Frontline was my choice to skip, given their history of biased reports in the past. There was nothing to make me believe this edition would be any different.
    A church that doesn't provoke any crisis,
    A Gospel that doesn't unsettle,
    A word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin,
    A word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of society around it,
    What kind of Gospel is that?

    Oscar Romero

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    Why do you think I was reading Dailykos? Why do you think I listen to NPR? Why do you think I read EJ Dionne? I am VERY open minded. But when Frontline does a story like this, and its on PBS, I am pretty certain they are going to take information and twist it to make their point, and I don't want to spend an hour of my life watching something that isn't going to shed any more light on the subject. A rehash of the same old criticisms (Bush lied! People died!) that I have read/heard countless times before. Maybe I missed a critical piece of information that would have given me my "Aha!" moment, but I can't watch/read/listen to everything available. In economic terms, its scarce resources (time) and unlimited wants (information). We have to make choices, and Frontline was my choice to skip, given their history of biased reports in the past. There was nothing to make me believe this edition would be any different.
    What if Frontline is right? That doesn't sound like something you considered.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by d'oh_boy
    What's "truly amazing" is that you really seem to be unaware that the things the Bush admin. was saying about Iraq's WMD came from the Intelligence community (NIE among other things) and not the NYT or the V.P.'s office.

    Oh, and that Sy Hersh piece you read before the 2003 S.O.T.U?

    Oct. 2003.

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact
    Well...insofar as the Al tubes, from what I've heard; anyone knowledgeable in physics could tell that they weren't suitable for centrifuges. Which either means someone somewhere is either thoroughly negligent/incompetant (considering the whole FEMA thing-not out of the question), or he/she/they had an agenda and didn't care about what people who knew what they were talking about said.
    Last edited by Marc; 06-21-2006 at 12:12 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Like I said

    Quote Originally Posted by mohair_chair
    What if Frontline is right? That doesn't sound like something you considered.
    I have to make choices. I can't read/watch/listen to everything. Do you monitor all forms of media? Do you watch and listent to Sean Hannity? What if he's right? How about Ann Coulter? What about documentaries on Fox? Or even those on Discovery Times, the History Channel or the Military Channel? I believe I even said that I may have missed an "Aha!" moment by not watching the show. That's the risk I am willing to take. I know from experience how Frontline presents information, and I wasn't willing to spend my scarce resource of time on watching it. OTOH, I am willing to spend some of that scarce resource debating my viewing habits with someone I don't know who regularly infers that I don't know what I'm talking about. Go, as they say, figure.
    A church that doesn't provoke any crisis,
    A Gospel that doesn't unsettle,
    A word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin,
    A word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of society around it,
    What kind of Gospel is that?

    Oscar Romero

  21. #21
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    I like this one better
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Live Steam
    I like this one better
    Hummmm.......Now, now much do you spose it would take to convince the Borg that assimilating GWB would not cause en mass pretzel choking?
    Man. You are all stuped.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregario
    12345
    Please stop insulting the monkeys...
    "Walmart ... Where else can you crush your business competition, and yet, serve and control the lumpenproletariat." Mr. Grumpy

    السلام عليكم

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    Why do you think I was reading Dailykos? Why do you think I listen to NPR? Why do you think I read EJ Dionne? I am VERY open minded. But when Frontline does a story like this, and its on PBS, I am pretty certain they are going to take information and twist it to make their point, and I don't want to spend an hour of my life watching something that isn't going to shed any more light on the subject. A rehash of the same old criticisms (Bush lied! People died!) that I have read/heard countless times before. Maybe I missed a critical piece of information that would have given me my "Aha!" moment, but I can't watch/read/listen to everything available. In economic terms, its scarce resources (time) and unlimited wants (information). We have to make choices, and Frontline was my choice to skip, given their history of biased reports in the past. There was nothing to make me believe this edition would be any different.
    Open minded? Like a steel trap, nothing gets in...

    How much more information do you need? Please provide facts that show how Frontline is "biased???" Sounds more like shoot the messenger cause you don't like the message.

    IF any of this was crap, don't you think it would've gone away by now? This shat is real.

    Keeping your head in the sand while your government lies and soldiers die... How do you live with yourself? If your side had an iota of credibility, why don't they call for real investigations? Why don't you hold them accountable?

    I hated the fact that Clinton lied under oath... Where's the outrage from your side about Bush? Rove was implicated in the Plame case and Bush backpeddles about firing anyone who was involved in leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent. Where's your outrage?

    Ok, here's a simple one. Why aren't you outraged about how much money the Republican controlled Congress has spent? And Bush hasn't vetoed one spending bill... Where's your outrage?
    Last edited by spyderman; 06-21-2006 at 07:26 PM.
    "Walmart ... Where else can you crush your business competition, and yet, serve and control the lumpenproletariat." Mr. Grumpy

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  25. #25
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    many Frontline stories....

    Quote Originally Posted by jbrumm
    I'm a big fan of Frontline myself. I love their stuff, but their work is definately slanted. And, I'm not sure if the Shakespeare comparrison is the way you want to go to make your point. Shakespeare was dramatist, not exactly a disciplined historian.

    I'll have to check my local listings for a re-airing of the Frontline episode. Sounds like a good one to watch.


    are archived on the web, the video quality is not great, but works OK for me (no TV, but am also a fan of the show)
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/

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