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  1. #1
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    ECONOMICS: Sundown in America - State-Wrecked

    Interesting article in the New York Times. This one contains plenty of meat for both sides of the political aisle. I don't agree with the author's doomsday prediction, but even the conservative faction in this forum might like (parts of) this article, even though it appears in the New York Times...
    Last edited by Pirx; 03-31-2013 at 08:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    I can't get past the first page of the article without paying (sorry for being such a cheap skate)! maybe later on David Stockman is disavowing the mess he and his cohorts created in the early 1980s. He was President Reagan’s budget director from 1981 to 1985. I remember him at the time always lecturing us about the miracle of trickle-down economics, or as George HW Bush called it during the primaries "voodoo economics."

  3. #3
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    Ah, sorry about the access restriction. I hear that by going in there via Google (Google the article title, and then click on the link that comes up) you may be able to get the full text.

  4. #4
    Moderatus Puisne
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    I was able to read the full text in the way the op suggests
    .

    you may have to clear cookies .

    briefly from mobile -- well, that's ... bleak.

  5. #5
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    skip it.

    it's basically everything Stockman has been saying, over the past five years, stuffed into a poorly-written article.

  6. #6
    I see trees of green
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    Quote Originally Posted by bricoleur View Post
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    skip it.

    it's basically everything Stockman has been saying, over the past five years, stuffed into a poorly-written article.
    It's a pig pile of bleak. I read it this morning. He says a couple things that seem to be red flags (e.g. fiat money /gold standard - I can't remember the other thing from the top of my head) to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bricoleur View Post
    .
    skip it.

    it's basically everything Stockman has been saying, over the past five years, stuffed into a poorly-written article.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    It's a pig pile of bleak. I read it this morning. He says a couple things that seem to be red flags (e.g. fiat money /gold standard - I can't remember the other thing from the top of my head) to me.
    Thank you for your insightful analysis.

  8. #8
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    I can't get past the first page of the article without paying (sorry for being such a cheap skate)! maybe later on David Stockman is disavowing the mess he and his cohorts created in the early 1980s. He was President Reagan’s budget director from 1981 to 1985. I remember him at the time always lecturing us about the miracle of trickle-down economics, or as George HW Bush called it during the primaries "voodoo economics."
    you mean the mess where he fixed the stagflation of the 70s and the stupidly high interest rates of the Carter administration?
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  9. #9
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    I think it is a very good article. Yes it is bleak, but I struggle to see the incorrect parts. If deficits don't count, if economic bubbles are good, if crony capitalism and corruption is good, if lobby and Citizens United is good and if too big to fail or jail financial institutions are good, then it is a bleak, alarmist article. Otherwise, it is your future.

    I have been saying that America in a "dive" for many years and I fully belive that the worst is yet to come.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    I think it is a very good article. Yes it is bleak, but I struggle to see the incorrect parts. If deficits don't count, if economic bubbles are good, if crony capitalism and corruption is good, if lobby and Citizens United is good and if too big to fail or jail financial institutions are good, then it is a bleak, alarmist article. Otherwise, it is your future.

    I have been saying that America in a "dive" for many years and I fully belive that the worst is yet to come.

    You're in agreement with the position that the U.S. should go back to the gold standard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Yes it is bleak, but I struggle to see the incorrect parts.If deficits don't count, if economic bubbles are good, if crony capitalism and corruption is good, if lobby and Citizens United is good and if too big to fail or jail financial institutions are good, then it is a bleak, alarmist article. Otherwise, it is your future.
    Binary thinking isn't necessarily good. It's possible to think that bubbles are bad while thinking that the Fed isn't necessarily the cause/going back to a gold standard isn't a good solution. It's possible to think that deficits do count but reject the current alarmism about deficits. Etc, etc

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious


    I think it is a very good article. Yes it is bleak, but I struggle to see the incorrect parts. If deficits don't count, if economic bubbles are good, if crony capitalism and corruption is good, if lobby and Citizens United is good and if too big to fail or jail financial institutions are good, then it is a bleak, alarmist article. Otherwise, it is your future.

    ...


    I'd say about 1/5 of it is good, but that's outweighed by wrong statistics, bizarre historical analogies and hyperbole.




    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    ...

    I have been saying that America in a "dive" for many years and I fully belive that the worst is yet to come.



    that's fine, but it doesn't correct all the bad analysis in the article.

    "I agree with the author on Z" doesn't fix the problems with A - Y.
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    It is kind of anti-Krugman article. The good thing is nobody can reliably predict the future except those who can change it (say push the red button etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    You're in agreement with the position that the U.S. should go back to the gold standard?
    No, but that is hardly what we should worry about.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by coreyb View Post
    Binary thinking isn't necessarily good. It's possible to think that bubbles are bad while thinking that the Fed isn't necessarily the cause/going back to a gold standard isn't a good solution. It's possible to think that deficits do count but reject the current alarmism about deficits. Etc, etc
    No worries, binary thinking does not work here. If it did, the US would be a third world country overnight. It will take many generations to get there, and the current strategy does not inspire confidence. Like it or not, the US is in decline and it will take a miracle to turn this around.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bricoleur View Post
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    I'd say about 1/5 of it is good, but that's outweighed by wrong statistics, bizarre historical analogies and hyperbole.








    that's fine, but it doesn't correct all the bad analysis in the article.

    "I agree with the author on Z" doesn't fix the problems with A - Y.
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    I think you are focusing on the wrong parts. I certainly don't agree with everything and there may well be inaccuracies. But as a general assessment of where the US is going, I am afraid the writing is on the wall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poff View Post
    It is kind of anti-Krugman article. The good thing is nobody can reliably predict the future except those who can change it (say push the red button etc).
    A number of billionaires made their fortunes by reliably predicting the future.

  18. #18
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    The nihilism of David Stockman - WonkBlog | The Washington Post


    Neil Irwin
    April 1, 2013



    I was probably the only kid in my high school who knew who David Stockman was. I found the former Reagan budget director’s memoir to be a fascinating window into the world of economic policy. So that makes it a bit ironic that he and I both have books coming out this week that have completely opposite takes on the most crucial questions of how the U.S. economy ought to work.

    Stylistically, our books are very different: “The Great Deformation: The Corruption of Capitalism in America” is a long, spittle-filled diatribe on how the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, FDR, and Richard Nixon ruined America. (Or so I gather — the book only came out today. But here are Stockman’s Sunday New York Times piece and an early review by Marcus Brauchli.) Mine is a reported narrative of the rise of central banking and the response of the leading central bankers to the 2007 to 2012 crisis.

    Stockman and I seem to be direct antagonists on this fundamental question: Should government, in particular central banks, endeavor to corral the ups and downs of capitalism to try to steer their nation toward prosperity?

    article continued here

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bricoleur View Post
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    The nihilism of David Stockman - WonkBlog | The Washington Post


    Neil Irwin
    April 1, 2013



    I was probably the only kid in my high school who knew who David Stockman was. I found the former Reagan budget director’s memoir to be a fascinating window into the world of economic policy. So that makes it a bit ironic that he and I both have books coming out this week that have completely opposite takes on the most crucial questions of how the U.S. economy ought to work.

    Stylistically, our books are very different: “The Great Deformation: The Corruption of Capitalism in America” is a long, spittle-filled diatribe on how the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, FDR, and Richard Nixon ruined America. (Or so I gather — the book only came out today. But here are Stockman’s Sunday New York Times piece and an early review by Marcus Brauchli.) Mine is a reported narrative of the rise of central banking and the response of the leading central bankers to the 2007 to 2012 crisis.

    Stockman and I seem to be direct antagonists on this fundamental question: Should government, in particular central banks, endeavor to corral the ups and downs of capitalism to try to steer their nation toward prosperity?

    article continued here

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    Good article, but for some reason it suggests that Stockman blames the state for all the problems. I did not get that impression. I think Stockman is well aware that in the US political environment, "the state" has little power. Interests groups, lobby groups, big money are behind most policies and most policies protect money making (which lately has been the sole domain of corporations and the rich). But regardless of the reasons and causes of the decline, my main point is that the decline is very real, very fast and if nothing changes, the US will be a very different country in a few generations.
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