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  1. #1
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    Florida Law --- The Consequences of Stand Your Ground

    Seems once someone looks into the Florida Stand Your Ground supposed self defense law, horror stories of legal murder or attempted murder appear. For example:

    Neighbor Shoots Man In Stomach Over Trash Bags, 2006

    Kenneth Allen was upset that Clearwater neighbor Jason Rosenbloom had placed 8 rather than the allowed 6 trash bags on their curb. The two men got into a verbal dispute. As Rosenbloom approached, Allen shot him once in the stomach and once in the chest, claiming Rosenbloom had tried to enter his home. Allen was not charged, police believing his self-defense claims. "Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder,” Rosenbloom said of how the then-new Stand Your Ground law affected the case.

    Man Retreating From Fight Shot In Back Of Head, 2007

    Michael Palmer and Timothy McTigue got into a fight in Rivera Beach, during which McTigue claimed Palmer tried to drown him. McTigue then fatally shot Palmer in the back of the head while Palmer was climbing out of the water.

    McTigue was acquitted.

    Newspaper Delivery Man Kills Stranger, 2008

    Tony Hayward was delivering newspapers in West Palm Beach when, he said, Jyron Miles approached him. Hayward claimed he thought Miles was reaching for a gun so he shot him.

    Hayward was acquitted.

    Man Claims He Had to Shoot Because Of Arthritis, 2008

    In Hudson, Anthony Boglino, 64, was in an argument with Haigh Frank Kopain, 36, when he said he felt threatened. He claimed his arthritis prevented him from being able to defend himself, so he shot his pistol, wounding Kopain.

    Boglino was acquitted under Stand Your Ground law

    Man Fires At Utility Workers Collecting Unpaid Bills, 2009

    Miami's Ernesto Che Vino fired at two Florida Power & Light workers that entered his yard to cut power to due to unpaid bills.

    A judge tossed out two counts of armed assault and one count of improper exhibition of a firearm, saying that under Stand Your Ground, Vino had reasonable fear for his life.

    In the words of one Florida law enforcement expert, "Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house," former Miami police chief John F. Timoney told the New York Times, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."

    15 Shocking Florida Stand Your Ground Cases (PHOTOS)
    Last edited by troutmd; 07-17-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Seems once someone looks into the Florida Stand Your Ground supposed self defense law, horror stories of legal murder or attempted murder appear. For example:

    Neighbor Shoots Man In Stomach Over Trash Bags, 2006

    Kenneth Allen was upset that Clearwater neighbor Jason Rosenbloom had placed 8 rather than the allowed 6 trash bags on their curb. The two men got into a verbal dispute. As Rosenbloom approached, Allen shot him once in the stomach and once in the chest, claiming Rosenbloom had tried to enter his home. Allen was not charged, police believing his self-defense claims. "Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder,” Rosenbloom said of how the then-new Stand Your Ground law affected the case.

    Man Retreating From Fight Shot In Back Of Head, 2007

    Michael Palmer and Timothy McTigue got into a fight in Rivera Beach, during which McTigue claimed Palmer tried to drown him. McTigue then fatally shot Palmer in the back of the head while Palmer was climbing out of the water.

    McTigue was acquitted.

    Newspaper Delivery Man Kills Stranger, 2008

    Tony Hayward was delivering newspapers in West Palm Beach when, he said, Jyron Miles approached him. Hayward claimed he thought Miles was reaching for a gun so he shot him.

    Hayward was acquitted.

    Man Claims He Had to Shoot Because Of Arthritis, 2008

    In Hudson, Anthony Boglino, 64, was in an argument with Haigh Frank Kopain, 36, when he said he felt threatened. He claimed his arthritis prevented him from being able to defend himself, so he shot his pistol, wounding Kopain.

    Boglino was acquitted under Stand Your Ground law

    Man Fires At Utility Workers Collecting Unpaid Bills, 2009

    Miami's Ernesto Che Vino fired at two Florida Power & Light workers that entered his yard to cut power to due to unpaid bills.

    A judge tossed out two counts of armed assault and one count of improper exhibition of a firearm, saying that under Stand Your Ground, Vino had reasonable fear for his life.

    In the words of one Florida law enforcement expert, "Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house," former Miami police chief John F. Timoney told the New York Times, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."
    These are condensations of one side of events collected by people with an axe to grind with SYG and guns in general. They are worth poop.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    These are condensations of one side of events collected by people with an axe to grind with SYG and guns in general. They are worth poop.
    Saying that they are worth poop doesn't invalidate what appears to be clear evidence... care to break these cases down for me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by headloss View Post
    Saying that they are worth poop doesn't invalidate what appears to be clear evidence... care to break these cases down for me?
    Why don't you ask the person who posted them if you need more information.

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    I'd like to see TroutMDs source article. If only for PO style guide.

    Here is an I retesting news article on SYG and some of the disparities and unexpected outcomes.

    Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied | Tampa Bay Times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    I'd like to see TroutMDs source article. If only for PO style guide.

    Here is an I retesting news article on SYG and some of the disparities and unexpected outcomes.

    Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied | Tampa Bay Times
    Again, all of these are short descriptions that offer no real insight into the individual incidents but can certainly be inflammatory in the discussion. This one is particularly current given our Zimmerman threads:

    "• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white."

    To judge whether race is actually a factor in all of most of these cases one has to evaluate them one at a time, the actual crime just might be relevant. Even then, like what we see in this current case, the account given may have little relation to what actually happened. Lists like this should have some serious research to support the ideas they seem to put on the table. Clear facts presented as if to a jury or a panel of lawyers to be judged on merits and application of the law rather than visceral reactions.

    If SYG is not working then it should be amended to better serve the people of the State where the laws are applied. They should not be tailored to satisfy the demands of a minority of people with loud voices that they use to inflame people who have no knowledge of the incidents beyond these small sound bites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Again, all of these are short descriptions that offer no real insight into the individual incidents but can certainly be inflammatory in the discussion. This one is particularly current given our Zimmerman threads:

    "• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white."

    To judge whether race is actually a factor in all of most of these cases one has to evaluate them one at a time, the actual crime just might be relevant. Even then, like what we see in this current case, the account given may have little relation to what actually happened. Lists like this should have some serious research to support the ideas they seem to put on the table. Clear facts presented as if to a jury or a panel of lawyers to be judged on merits and application of the law rather than visceral reactions.

    If SYG is not working then it should be amended to better serve the people of the State where the laws are applied. They should not be tailored to satisfy the demands of a minority of people with loud voices that they use to inflame people who have no knowledge of the incidents beyond these small sound bites.
    I guess when you read the article you focus on race.

    When I read the article, I see that it is a new (relatively speaking) law. I see the article as saying 'citizens, prosecutors, judges, defense lawyers are wrapping their heads around what this law means, how it is applied.' (That's the intro sentence).

    The overall focus of the article seems to be 'how is SYG playing out in real life.' It talks about race, but it talks about a lot of other interesting impacts, as well.

    I think it does a good job of bringing to light many interesting and unusual cases resulting from SYG. Just my opinion, but I think it is not accurate to dismiss the article as a cartoonish race baiting job.
    Last edited by Bluenote; 07-17-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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  8. #8
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    I disagree. While of course each criminal prosecution must consider the crime individually, in evaluating a practice which is discriminatory -- whether it is crime, hiring in the workplace, whatever -- the part that is relevant is the aggregate data. It may be very difficult to say if an individual hiring decision, an individual prosecution, is racially motivated.

    But if one can show a significantly disproportionate number of employees hired, prosecutions, or convictions, occur within a given minority, that is important, even if it does not tell us WHY that is.

    Similarly, studies that show the aggregate effects of SYG laws are far more interesting to me than talking in circles about one shooting in Florida, with limited and contradictory evidence available.

    TEXAS A&M STUDY: STAND YOUR GROUND LAWS ESCALATE VIOLENCE, , rather than deter crime.

    Overall, the study attributes an 8 per cent rise in the homicide rate, or 600 additional unnecessary deaths per year, to SYG laws.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Again, all of these are short descriptions that offer no real insight into the individual incidents but can certainly be inflammatory in the discussion. This one is particularly current given our Zimmerman threads:

    "• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white."

    To judge whether race is actually a factor in all of most of these cases one has to evaluate them one at a time, the actual crime just might be relevant. Even then, like what we see in this current case, the account given may have little relation to what actually happened. Lists like this should have some serious research to support the ideas they seem to put on the table. Clear facts presented as if to a jury or a panel of lawyers to be judged on merits and application of the law rather than visceral reactions.

    If SYG is not working then it should be amended to better serve the people of the State where the laws are applied. They should not be tailored to satisfy the demands of a minority of people with loud voices that they use to inflame people who have no knowledge of the incidents beyond these small sound bites.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentius View Post
    Moderator's note - TroutMD, can you please edit your OP to cite your source(s?)

    I'm willing to leave the body of text as it is, as a basis for discussion, even if I feel it's a bit inflammatory.
    15 Shocking Florida Stand Your Ground Cases (PHOTOS)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentius View Post
    I disagree. While of course each criminal prosecution must consider the crime individually, in evaluating a practice which is discriminatory -- whether it is crime, hiring in the workplace, whatever -- the part that is relevant is the aggregate data. It may be very difficult to say if an individual hiring decision, an individual prosecution, is racially motivated.

    But if one can show a significantly disproportionate number of employees hired, prosecutions, or convictions, occur within a given minority, that is important, even if it does not tell us WHY that is.

    Similarly, studies that show the aggregate effects of SYG laws are far more interesting to me than talking in circles about one shooting in Florida, with limited and contradictory evidence available.

    TEXAS A&M STUDY: STAND YOUR GROUND LAWS ESCALATE VIOLENCE, , rather than deter crime.

    Overall, the study attributes an 8 per cent rise in the homicide rate, or 600 additional unnecessary deaths per year, to SYG laws.
    So it's significant. From this brief discussion, the "Shocking" list of incidents of SYG involvement what conclusions are we able to reach? That Blacks are singled out for prosecution or that Blacks commit more crimes that involve them in these situations?

    I have no doubt that it's a little of this and a little of that but we can only reach the conclusion and state of mind this list is leading us to without a lot more information.

    A neighborhood watch stalks, shoots and kills a young man in Sanford Florida, here is a picture of each.

    Now is that enough of this story to even have a reasonable discussion on anything other than guns in general and SYG laws in particular?

    All I'm saying is that these articles, as written, supply just enough information to incite people who already have a near phobia about guns and racism and leave opposing arguments flapping in the wind. That is why they were published and why they were posted here. I'm not advocating removing them, just pointing out the bias the come from.

    This is not how I envision SYG being applied and I'm not sure there aren't other factors and legal arguments involved in these cases. the gentleman that killed his neighbor on top of his wife may have also been hard to dispute since it was his wife, his home and the other fellow is dead. He might be lying, probably is but it might be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    So it's significant. From this brief discussion, the "Shocking" list of incidents of SYG involvement what conclusions are we able to reach? That Blacks are singled out for prosecution or that Blacks commit more crimes that involve them in these situations?

    I have no doubt that it's a little of this and a little of that but we can only reach the conclusion and state of mind this list is leading us to without a lot more information.

    A neighborhood watch stalks, shoots and kills a young man in Sanford Florida, here is a picture of each.

    Now is that enough of this story to even have a reasonable discussion on anything other than guns in general and SYG laws in particular?

    All I'm saying is that these articles, as written, supply just enough information to incite people who already have a near phobia about guns and racism and leave opposing arguments flapping in the wind. That is why they were published and why they were posted here. I'm not advocating removing them, just pointing out the bias the come from.

    This is not how I envision SYG being applied and I'm not sure there aren't other factors and legal arguments involved in these cases. the gentleman that killed his neighbor on top of his wife may have also been hard to dispute since it was his wife, his home and the other fellow is dead. He might be lying, probably is but it might be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
    I flatly disagree. I think it's ridiculous, on its face, to say posting an article on SYG is just a cheap shot at race baiting.

    The article I posted has links to all this - a database if 200 SYG cases. Statistics. Summaries and detailed descriptions. Sub articles about self defense vs SYG. Even a discussion of how they researched cases.
    Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy | Tampa Bay Times

    But this very informative resource gets dismissed as 'racial incitement'?

    W...T....F?

    So it's ok to talk about race until, suddenly it's not? PO has been talking about race for weeks -Paula Deen, use of the N word, the Zimmerman case, race and news reporting.

    But now, suddenly, it's not OK to talk about race? Now a portion of an article talks about race and the whole article is incitement? we're not supposed to talk about that, because some people might get emotional?

    You envision SYG being applied a certain way. I bet you didn't envision it being used to defend a lady who beat a Jack Russel Terrier. I bet the lawmakers who wrote it didn't envision that, either!

    SYG is relatively new. I think it is reasonable to have a public discussion about its impacts and effectiveness, even when that takes us to uncomfortable places.

    Especially when that takes us to uncomfortable places.
    Last edited by Bluenote; 07-17-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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    If one does a little a-googling of the cases from the summary above, it's pretty easy to find more in depth reporting.

    The one I find very scary is the case of the shooting of Michael Jackson. Two gangs met for a shoot out, but were protected by SYG. The judge, in his ruling, pointed out the danger of this.

    BBC News - Stand Your Ground: Four case studies
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    Certainly you're not suggesting that Huffington Post would distort a story?
    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    These are condensations of one side of events collected by people with an axe to grind with SYG and guns in general. They are worth poop.

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    After the heat dies down, a new story will be added. It will be about an innocent black child who was shot because he was carrying a bag of skittles through a white neighborhood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    I guess when you read the article you focus on race.

    When I read the article, I see that it is a new (relatively speaking) law. I see the article as saying 'citizens, prosecutors, judges, defense lawyers are wrapping their heads around what this law means, how it is applied.' (That's the intro sentence).

    The overall focus of the article seems to be 'how is SYG playing out in real life.' It talks about race, but it talks about a lot of other interesting impacts, as well.

    I think it does a good job of bringing to light many interesting and unusual cases resulting from SYG. Just my opinion, but I think it is not accurate to dismiss the article as a cartoonish race baiting job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    If one does a little a-googling of the cases from the summary above, it's pretty easy to find more in depth reporting.

    The one I find very scary is the case of the shooting of Michael Jackson. Two gangs met for a shoot out, but were protected by SYG. The judge, in his ruling, pointed out the danger of this.

    BBC News - Stand Your Ground: Four case studies
    Stand Your Ground has become the premier gang banger/drug dealer method to escape violent crime charges. Instead of decreasing violent and making people safer, it is becoming clear the opposite is resulting.
    Last edited by troutmd; 07-18-2013 at 02:44 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Seems once someone looks into the Florida Stand Your Ground supposed self defense law, horror stories of legal murder or attempted murder appear. For example:

    Neighbor Shoots Man In Stomach Over Trash Bags, 2006

    Kenneth Allen was upset that Clearwater neighbor Jason Rosenbloom had placed 8 rather than the allowed 6 trash bags on their curb. The two men got into a verbal dispute. As Rosenbloom approached, Allen shot him once in the stomach and once in the chest, claiming Rosenbloom had tried to enter his home. Allen was not charged, police believing his self-defense claims. "Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder,” Rosenbloom said of how the then-new Stand Your Ground law affected the case.

    Man Retreating From Fight Shot In Back Of Head, 2007

    Michael Palmer and Timothy McTigue got into a fight in Rivera Beach, during which McTigue claimed Palmer tried to drown him. McTigue then fatally shot Palmer in the back of the head while Palmer was climbing out of the water.

    McTigue was acquitted.

    Newspaper Delivery Man Kills Stranger, 2008

    Tony Hayward was delivering newspapers in West Palm Beach when, he said, Jyron Miles approached him. Hayward claimed he thought Miles was reaching for a gun so he shot him.

    Hayward was acquitted.

    Man Claims He Had to Shoot Because Of Arthritis, 2008

    In Hudson, Anthony Boglino, 64, was in an argument with Haigh Frank Kopain, 36, when he said he felt threatened. He claimed his arthritis prevented him from being able to defend himself, so he shot his pistol, wounding Kopain.

    Boglino was acquitted under Stand Your Ground law

    Man Fires At Utility Workers Collecting Unpaid Bills, 2009

    Miami's Ernesto Che Vino fired at two Florida Power & Light workers that entered his yard to cut power to due to unpaid bills.

    A judge tossed out two counts of armed assault and one count of improper exhibition of a firearm, saying that under Stand Your Ground, Vino had reasonable fear for his life.

    In the words of one Florida law enforcement expert, "Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house," former Miami police chief John F. Timoney told the New York Times, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."

    15 Shocking Florida Stand Your Ground Cases (PHOTOS)
    Cops commit these kinds of acts and MUCH WORSE on a regular basis. How come you aren't pissed about that?
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    If one does a little a-googling of the cases from the summary above, it's pretty easy to find more in depth reporting.

    The one I find very scary is the case of the shooting of Michael Jackson. Two gangs met for a shoot out, but were protected by SYG. The judge, in his ruling, pointed out the danger of this.

    BBC News - Stand Your Ground: Four case studies
    Sounds like maybe one of the problems is there is not much precedent established and judges are left to interpret as they will. Being human sort of like us here, opinions differ.

    One question about the discussion though, we are reviewing horror stories but are we seeing the actual way it is truly applied in most cases? Every law has it's decisions that appear to be aberrations but that doesn't man that the law is necessarily bad law, just that it gets distorted and badly applied from time to time? It's hard to believe that some of these stories represent the standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Sounds like maybe one of the problems is there is not much precedent established and judges are left to interpret as they will. Being human sort of like us here, opinions differ.

    One question about the discussion though, we are reviewing horror stories but are we seeing the actual way it is truly applied in most cases? Every law has it's decisions that appear to be aberrations but that doesn't man that the law is necessarily bad law, just that it gets distorted and badly applied from time to time? It's hard to believe that some of these stories represent the standard.
    I think the link I provided, based on 200 cases if SYG, is pretty informative.

    It gives all kinds of statistics - who started the confrontation, weapon used, real world out come, judicial outcome. It even links one to more detail about each case.

    Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy | Tampa Bay Times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
    I think the link I provided, based on 200 cases if SYG, is pretty informative.

    It gives all kinds of statistics - who started the confrontation, weapon used, real world out come, judicial outcome. It even links one to more detail about each case.

    Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy | Tampa Bay Times
    New Hampshire also has a Stand Your Ground law. it differs from the Florida version, which allow someone to start a confrontation, then decide for themselves their life is threatened, and to pull the trigger with deadly force under the guise of self-defense.

    In New Hampshire the shooter would be charged with a crime ... in Florida not necessarily so!
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    New Hampshire also has a Stand Your Ground law. it differs from the Florida version, which allow someone to start a confrontation, then decide for themselves their life is threatened, and to pull the trigger with deadly force under the guise of self-defense.

    In New Hampshire the shooter would be charged with a crime ... in Florida not necessarily so!
    That's the problem with SYG. It doesn't go far enough. If I confront someone about, say, the dent they just put in my car with their shopping cart, or I go next door to the neighbor to confront them about their loud party late at night while my kids are trying to sleep, and the other person has a freakout and attacks, and I have no choice but to shoot him or her or get stomped, I would be charged with a crime simply because I was the one that initiated the contact. What a crock.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    That's the problem with SYG. It doesn't go far enough. If I confront someone about, say, the dent they just put in my car with their shopping cart, or I go next door to the neighbor to confront them about their loud party late at night while my kids are trying to sleep, and the other person has a freakout and attacks, and I have no choice but to shoot him or her or get stomped, I would be charged with a crime simply because I was the one that initiated the contact. What a crock.
    I don't think I could make a better description of just what is in the mind of someone who advocated "shoot first and ask questions later."

    Well done.
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    Assuming there are no other witnesses, it is best to be the first to feel threatened and kill you neighbor before he feels threatened and shoots you.
    "If you are going to be stupid then you have to be tough". - Tony Stewart

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    Quote Originally Posted by early one View Post
    Assuming there are no other witnesses, it is best to be the first to feel threatened and kill you neighbor before he feels threatened and shoots you.
    Not that easy. One's "feeling" must be reasonable. In the Martin case, one well placed blow to the head could have caused Zimmerman's death as easily as one well placed bullet caused Martin's. In Zimmeraman's case it was found that he reasonably believed he was being subjected to grave bodily harm or death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    Not that easy. One's "feeling" must be reasonable. In the Martin case, one well placed blow to the head could have caused Zimmerman's death as easily as one well placed bullet caused Martin's. In Zimmeraman's case it was found that he reasonably believed he was being subjected to grave bodily harm or death.
    Correct --- the jury never had the chance to learn the other persons side of the story ... Zimmerman killed him.

    Seems to fit this post quite well:

    "Assuming there are no other witnesses, it is best to be the first to feel threatened and kill you neighbor before he feels threatened and shoots you." easy one
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    He proudly stood his ground, till gunned down by jack-booted government thugs:
    7 killed in Florida hostage standoff - CNN.com

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