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  1. #1
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    GUN CRIME: Prohibitions will protect us/people without guns are dumb

    A week or so ago, in our fair town, a man rides the city bus with a shotgun in a bag. His ex, who has acquired a "protective" order against this convicted felon, hops on the bus at the next stop.

    She walks on, is surprised and frightened to see the felon there, confused about how to react, she sits down with the felon, and meekly listens as he leans over to her and whispers. In seconds she stands up, and begins screaming for someone to call the police, because he is going to kill her.

    No one moves, or reacts in any perceptible way. The felon pulls his shotgun from its bag. She continues screaming, and lunges into the aisle panic stricken. While doing so, she knocks him back and he drops the gun. Still, no one moves to aid her.

    The bus driver notices and requests that the felon drop his gun, pointing out that it is illegal. The felon ignores him, recovers the gun, and while the women continues to beg for her life and for help from the witnesses, forces her off of the bus at gunpoint. As they step off of the bus, the felon murders her in front of men, women, and children. Not one person moved to aid her.

    How could this travesty occur????.....she was protected by the "NO WEAPONS" policy of the city bus company, the federal law prohibiting felons from possessing firearms, the protective order prohibiting contact between the two of them, the city ordinance prohibiting firing a gun within city limits, and the bus full of un-armed people that gazed in awe at the violence that "could never happen to me".

    Able-bodied men sat and watched with rapt attention while an innocent woman was blown to smithereens........ not one other armed person on the bus. What a bunch of cowards, just like all the other gun haters.

  2. #2
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    It is ironic to call people without guns dumb, while posting yet another stupid justification for more guns and more people having ready access to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    It is ironic to call people without guns dumb, while posting yet another stupid justification for more guns and more people having ready access to them.
    You show no irony, nor any reason it would have been stupid for someone else to have a gun. Other than that, your post was compelling.

    In West Allis, Wisconsin a woman being kicked in the head was saved by a man with a concealed carry permit and a weapon. I doubt she thinks it was stupid for the man to carry.

    Dashcam video released following beating of West Allis woman | FOX6Now.com

  4. #4
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    People's reactions, and the trouble with them, in crisis situations have been well-documented.

    As you describe, anyone trained to react quickly in a crisis, without being frozen by panic, would have had a good chance to stop the gunman. armed or not.

    On the other hand, yours truly knows how to operate a handgun and has fired them before, but, does not own one and is not a trained first responder. If I had a gun and was on the bus -- a tight, cramped, moving, crowded space -- I am not at all confident that I would have been able to successfully use the gun to completely disable the killer before he shot the victim or anyone else, and, without me hitting another passenger.

    That is a pretty high threshold of responsibility for your average citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentius View Post
    People's reactions, and the trouble with them, in crisis situations have been well-documented.

    As you describe, anyone trained to react quickly in a crisis, without being frozen by panic, would have had a good chance to stop the gunman. armed or not.

    On the other hand, yours truly knows how to operate a handgun and has fired them before, but, does not own one and is not a trained first responder. If I had a gun and was on the bus -- a tight, cramped, moving, crowded space -- I am not at all confident that I would have been able to successfully use the gun to completely disable the killer before he shot the victim or anyone else, and, without me hitting another passenger.

    That is a pretty high threshold of responsibility for your average citizen.
    What do you think you might have done if you were there and were armed?

  6. #6
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    People who do not own guns are not dumb. In fact, in many instances, you lessen the chance that you will be killed or be responsible for an unwarranted killing if you do not own a gun. For every story like the OP, there is a story of a gun owner whose gun accidentally killed a family member or was used to commit suicide. Argentius makes a good point. An experienced, trained first responder could have prevented the murder. But, could have the average joe citizen, even someone who has some gun experience, have defused the situation without causing collateral damage?
    I try to be perfectly civil, until someone really pisses me off.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    A week or so ago, in our fair town, a man rides the city bus with a shotgun in a bag. His ex, who has acquired a "protective" order against this convicted felon, hops on the bus at the next stop.

    She walks on, is surprised and frightened to see the felon there, confused about how to react, she sits down with the felon, and meekly listens as he leans over to her and whispers. In seconds she stands up, and begins screaming for someone to call the police, because he is going to kill her.

    No one moves, or reacts in any perceptible way. The felon pulls his shotgun from its bag. She continues screaming, and lunges into the aisle panic stricken. While doing so, she knocks him back and he drops the gun. Still, no one moves to aid her.

    The bus driver notices and requests that the felon drop his gun, pointing out that it is illegal. The felon ignores him, recovers the gun, and while the women continues to beg for her life and for help from the witnesses, forces her off of the bus at gunpoint. As they step off of the bus, the felon murders her in front of men, women, and children. Not one person moved to aid her.

    How could this travesty occur????.....she was protected by the "NO WEAPONS" policy of the city bus company, the federal law prohibiting felons from possessing firearms, the protective order prohibiting contact between the two of them, the city ordinance prohibiting firing a gun within city limits, and the bus full of un-armed people that gazed in awe at the violence that "could never happen to me".

    Able-bodied men sat and watched with rapt attention while an innocent woman was blown to smithereens........ not one other armed person on the bus. What a bunch of cowards, just like all the other gun haters.


    Well, I am just absolutely "stunned" that the police or our government weren't able to protect that woman. At the very least I would have thought that the felon in this case would realize that he is not entitled to own a weapon and therefore not commit this act. Perhaps we need to enact some additional "laws" or "infringements" upon our rights to counteract this evil.
    +1 for the NRA!

    Guns save lives.

  8. #8
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    That was a tragic event but you can't expect people to do anything while a person is brandishing a weapon. You can't expect a "good guy" with a concealed carry permit to open fire in a bus full of people. There were people with concealed carry permits at the Giffords shooting who didn't act because the scene was so chaotic and they were afraid they'd do more harm than good.

    People can say "If I was there, I would have wrestled the weapon away", but the reality is that most people will freeze up and think about their own safety when it comes down to it. Unless we want to live in a police state where we have no freedoms, people will have and use guns, even if they have them illegally. More people carrying guns is not the right answer, most people would never use it in a bad situation or even worse, panic and just start shooting to defend themselves.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    That was a tragic event but you can't expect people to do anything while a person is brandishing a weapon. You can't expect a "good guy" with a concealed carry permit to open fire in a bus full of people. There were people with concealed carry permits at the Giffords shooting who didn't act because the scene was so chaotic and they were afraid they'd do more harm than good.

    People can say "If I was there, I would have wrestled the weapon away", but the reality is that most people will freeze up and think about their own safety when it comes down to it. Unless we want to live in a police state where we have no freedoms, people will have and use guns, even if they have them illegally. More people carrying guns is not the right answer, most people would never use it in a bad situation or even worse, panic and just start shooting to defend themselves.
    Most of us know our wrestling limits too. The thing about carrying concealed though is if you limit yourself to a clear field of fire you may as well leave your gun at home in most cases. One is not required to risk their own life or that of others but had I been on that bus with a weapon and watched that woman be killed I would live the rest of my life with guilt.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    People who do not own guns are not dumb. In fact, in many instances, you lessen the chance that you will be killed or be responsible for an unwarranted killing if you do not own a gun. For every story like the OP, there is a story of a gun owner whose gun accidentally killed a family member or was used to commit suicide. Argentius makes a good point. An experienced, trained first responder could have prevented the murder. But, could have the average joe citizen, even someone who has some gun experience, have defused the situation without causing collateral damage?
    We have seen multiple accounts lately where experienced, trained first responders shoot up several innocents and neighborhoods as they save the day. The thing all of these situations have in common is the speed with which they develop and occur. Help ain't gonna get there in time which is why some choose to arm themselves. Nobody is stupid on either side, they just see things differently.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    That was a tragic event but you can't expect people to do anything while a person is brandishing a weapon. You can't expect a "good guy" with a concealed carry permit to open fire in a bus full of people. There were people with concealed carry permits at the Giffords shooting who didn't act because the scene was so chaotic and they were afraid they'd do more harm than good.

    People can say "If I was there, I would have wrestled the weapon away", but the reality is that most people will freeze up and think about their own safety when it comes down to it. Unless we want to live in a police state where we have no freedoms, people will have and use guns, even if they have them illegally. More people carrying guns is not the right answer, most people would never use it in a bad situation or even worse, panic and just start shooting to defend themselves.
    Hey, you're no fun, bigbill.

    I wouldn't characterize it has tragic. That implies the element of chance, forces coming together resulting in unintended consequences that neither party wanted. This was a sad commentary on American culture, where guns are so readily used as weapons of choice in "getting even."

    Yeah, nice to fantasize about being a hero, but couples sitting together on a bus get into arguments all the time. It's plausible that the passengers hung back thinking the guy was bluffing or the woman was over reacting in a heated argument.

    I read self defence stories in the NRA rag while taking a dump. Almost all were either unnecessary or resulted in injury to the victim. So much for using a gun to protect yourself. Despite the talk, nobody here has actually been in a situation where he used a gun in self defence.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    A week or so ago, in our fair town, a man rides the city bus with a shotgun in a bag. His ex, who has acquired a "protective" order against this convicted felon, hops on the bus at the next stop.

    She walks on, is surprised and frightened to see the felon there, confused about how to react, she sits down with the felon, and meekly listens as he leans over to her and whispers. In seconds she stands up, and begins screaming for someone to call the police, because he is going to kill her.

    No one moves, or reacts in any perceptible way. The felon pulls his shotgun from its bag. She continues screaming, and lunges into the aisle panic stricken. While doing so, she knocks him back and he drops the gun. Still, no one moves to aid her.

    The bus driver notices and requests that the felon drop his gun, pointing out that it is illegal. The felon ignores him, recovers the gun, and while the women continues to beg for her life and for help from the witnesses, forces her off of the bus at gunpoint. As they step off of the bus, the felon murders her in front of men, women, and children. Not one person moved to aid her.

    How could this travesty occur????.....she was protected by the "NO WEAPONS" policy of the city bus company, the federal law prohibiting felons from possessing firearms, the protective order prohibiting contact between the two of them, the city ordinance prohibiting firing a gun within city limits, and the bus full of un-armed people that gazed in awe at the violence that "could never happen to me".

    Able-bodied men sat and watched with rapt attention while an innocent woman was blown to smithereens........ not one other armed person on the bus. What a bunch of cowards, just like all the other gun haters.
    The Kitty Genovese syndrome. Except, in that instance, she wasn't shot she was stabbed.

    New York had the death penalty. He was supposed to have been deterred, but I guess he must have forgotten to be.
    Last edited by Andy69; 03-29-2013 at 08:31 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    A week or so ago, in our fair town, a man rides the city bus with a shotgun in a bag. His ex, who has acquired a "protective" order against this convicted felon, hops on the bus at the next stop.

    She walks on, is surprised and frightened to see the felon there, confused about how to react, she sits down with the felon, and meekly listens as he leans over to her and whispers. In seconds she stands up, and begins screaming for someone to call the police, because he is going to kill her.

    No one moves, or reacts in any perceptible way. The felon pulls his shotgun from its bag. She continues screaming, and lunges into the aisle panic stricken. While doing so, she knocks him back and he drops the gun. Still, no one moves to aid her.

    The bus driver notices and requests that the felon drop his gun, pointing out that it is illegal. The felon ignores him, recovers the gun, and while the women continues to beg for her life and for help from the witnesses, forces her off of the bus at gunpoint. As they step off of the bus, the felon murders her in front of men, women, and children. Not one person moved to aid her.

    How could this travesty occur????.....she was protected by the "NO WEAPONS" policy of the city bus company, the federal law prohibiting felons from possessing firearms, the protective order prohibiting contact between the two of them, the city ordinance prohibiting firing a gun within city limits, and the bus full of un-armed people that gazed in awe at the violence that "could never happen to me".

    Able-bodied men sat and watched with rapt attention while an innocent woman was blown to smithereens........ not one other armed person on the bus. What a bunch of cowards, just like all the other gun haters.
    If she was so confused about how to act immediately to protect herself upon sighting her ex-felon ex boyfriend with a shotgun on a city bus I wouldn't want her anywhere near a gun of her own.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    It is ironic to call people without guns dumb, while posting yet another stupid justification for more guns and more people having ready access to them.

    Actually, the story very well illustrates why her having a gun would be a bad idea and not a solution.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    You show no irony, nor any reason it would have been stupid for someone else to have a gun. Other than that, your post was compelling.

    In West Allis, Wisconsin a woman being kicked in the head was saved by a man with a concealed carry permit and a weapon. I doubt she thinks it was stupid for the man to carry.

    Dashcam video released following beating of West Allis woman | FOX6Now.com
    No, the story does that quite clearly on its own.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    What do you think you might have done if you were there and were armed?
    I sure as hell wouldn't have gone over and sat next the ex. I would immediately command the driver to stop the bus to let me off and disembark the instant it was safe to do so. What would you do?

  17. #17
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    really? how so? I guess for sheeple it is better to just cower and hope for the best.

    Or, on second thought, she could have had a gun and just shot the bastid.
    +1 for the NRA!

    Guns save lives.

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    I do not view ineffectual laws to be "ironic". One cannot say with any degree of certainty that the situation would have been made worse if someone had been carrying. Alternative outcomes (for better or worse) are just speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    If she was so confused about how to act immediately to protect herself upon sighting her ex-felon ex boyfriend with a shotgun on a city bus I wouldn't want her anywhere near a gun of her own.
    She had no idea he had a gun until she sat there beside him and he told her that he was going to kill her. It was already too late to save herself by getting off the bus, she did that and that was when he killed her. In fact, she was probably dead the moment she got on that bus unless someone intervened. For whatever reason, nobody did.

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    Clearly it's the bus company's fault for not posting the "no guns allowed" sign large enough. Had the killer seen it, his plan would have been foiled as he obviously would have obeyed it and not boarded the bus. We just need bigger signs. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    If she was so confused about how to act immediately to protect herself upon sighting her ex-felon ex boyfriend with a shotgun on a city bus I wouldn't want her anywhere near a gun of her own.
    He wasn't an ex-felon. He was a felon.

    When danger was known, she reacted appropriately. Fight or flight. She chose flight. She died.

    Actually, not a choice. It is an imposition perpetrated upon her by people that have failed thinking skills like yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    You show no irony, nor any reason it would have been stupid for someone else to have a gun. Other than that, your post was compelling.
    Why am I not aurprised that you cannot see the irony in that post. That's ok, you are not alone, many Americans think that "more guns" is the solution to gun violence. But I find it ironic, the world finds it ironic. You need to step out of the box to see the irony of it all, but I think I am asking a lot.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    Actually, not a choice. It is an imposition perpetrated upon her by people that have failed thinking skills like yours.
    Hey BlueCheeseHead, you see the irony here? I will spell it out this time: this joker thinks anti-gun people are responsible for her murder. It's gets better with every post. Eventually we shall reach the conclusion that strict gun laws killed her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Hey BlueCheeseHead, you see the irony here? I will spell it out this time: this joker thinks anti-gun people are responsible for her murder. It's gets better with every post. Eventually we shall reach the conclusion that strict gun laws killed her.
    What do you think might have saved her?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    A week or so ago, in our fair town, a man rides the city bus with a shotgun in a bag. His ex, who has acquired a "protective" order against this convicted felon, hops on the bus at the next stop.

    She walks on, is surprised and frightened to see the felon there, confused about how to react, she sits down with the felon, and meekly listens as he leans over to her and whispers. In seconds she stands up, and begins screaming for someone to call the police, because he is going to kill her.

    No one moves, or reacts in any perceptible way. The felon pulls his shotgun from its bag. She continues screaming, and lunges into the aisle panic stricken. While doing so, she knocks him back and he drops the gun. Still, no one moves to aid her.

    The bus driver notices and requests that the felon drop his gun, pointing out that it is illegal. The felon ignores him, recovers the gun, and while the women continues to beg for her life and for help from the witnesses, forces her off of the bus at gunpoint. As they step off of the bus, the felon murders her in front of men, women, and children. Not one person moved to aid her.

    How could this travesty occur????.....she was protected by the "NO WEAPONS" policy of the city bus company, the federal law prohibiting felons from possessing firearms, the protective order prohibiting contact between the two of them, the city ordinance prohibiting firing a gun within city limits, and the bus full of un-armed people that gazed in awe at the violence that "could never happen to me".

    Able-bodied men sat and watched with rapt attention while an innocent woman was blown to smithereens........ not one other armed person on the bus. What a bunch of cowards, just like all the other gun haters.
    dude, you really have issues.
    Not banned yet.

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