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  1. #1
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    GUN PEOPLE: so, what's the solution?

    There's a major disconnect on gun control in this country. On the one hand, we have a country full of legal gun owners who use their guns in a responsible way, store them properly and don't murder anyone. That's all good.

    On the other hand, we have had well over THREE THOUSAND gun deaths since Newtown (not counting suicides).

    We have legal gun owners who should be able to own guns, we have criminals who should not. We have laws and consequences for gun crimes but we don't enforce them particularly well, and gun industry lobbying groups have done a pretty good job of weakening those laws.

    So, what do y'all propose to do? What I don't want to hear is "Everyone needs to buy a gun" because that just is not ever going to happen- it's the gun fan version of "Ban all guns forever." I want to hear some rational solutions from gun owners and gun lovers about how to fix the problem. Or even to just come to an agreement on what the problem actually is- Is it safe to say that we currently have too many guns in this country?

    I do not want to take away YOUR legally owned guns. But there are a crap load of crappy guns owned illegally and used illegally. That's my target- getting rid of the excess supply of illegal guns. Because any way you slice it, over 3000 gun deaths in 5 months in a country that is not having a civil war is pretty appalling.

    Here's my goal: I want to hear from gun owners and fans of firearms. I DO NOT want to hear from you if you want to ban all firearms. I DO NOT WANT anti gun people riling up the gunners and derailing this thread. Start your own thread for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  2. #2
    I see trees of green
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    ...
    Here's my goal: I want to hear from gun owners and fans of firearms. I DO NOT want to hear from you if you want to ban all firearms. I DO NOT WANT anti gun people riling up the gunners and derailing this thread. Start your own thread for that.
    Does this suggest that we can't depend on "the gunners" to be responsible for maintaining control over their own emotions?

  3. #3
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    The solution?

    More threads.

    Obviously.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Let'sRide View Post
    The solution?

    More threads.

    Obviously.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    On the other hand, we have had well over THREE THOUSAND gun deaths since Newtown (not counting suicides).
    How many people have died in automobile accidents since Newtown? How many of them were children? Why aren't the same people pushing for gun control pushing also pushing for automobile control?
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chudak View Post
    ...automobile control?
    I thought we already had that. Automobiles are registered, drivers are licensed, owners typically need insurance. What am I missing?

  7. #7
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    We have laws and consequences for gun crimes but we don't enforce them particularly well
    I see this as the #1 problem. If we're not serious about this (which we aren't). Then nothing else matters.

    Is it safe to say that we currently have too many guns in this country?
    I don't think it's the number, but rather the number in the wrong hands.

    I do not want to take away YOUR legally owned guns. But there are a crap load of crappy guns owned illegally and used illegally. That's my target- getting rid of the excess supply of illegal guns.
    The way I see it is there's two major groups that are the problem. #1 Hardcore criminals/gang bangers. #2 Crazy people who shoot up schools, etc.

    #1 (Criminals) We need more police and stricter enforcement and punishment. New laws aren't going to change this culture. It's a societal breakdown that needs addressed. Education and jobs would go a long way to help with this.

    #2 (Crazies) We need better mental health care to identify and treat people with mental health issues. Laws and gun restrictions aren't going to stop them. They're methodical, planned, and determined. If they can't get guns... well they'll use bombs.

    #3 Background checks. Here in PA you can sell long guns (including AR15) face to face with no background check. So long as neither person is a "prohibited person", but there is no requirement to verify whether someone is prohibited. You can't sell to a "known" prohibited person. Well if you ask John Doe if he's prohibited, and he says no, you're clear.
    While I have bought and sold this way, I think it's something that needs to change.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    I thought we already had that. Automobiles are registered, drivers are licensed, owners typically need insurance. What am I missing?
    People are dying! Surely we aren't doing enough? Think about the children!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chudak View Post
    How many people have died in automobile accidents since Newtown? How many of them were children? Why aren't the same people pushing for gun control pushing also pushing for automobile control?
    Drivers are quite regulated. Drive badly enough, you can lose your insurance and your rights to drive. Also prison time for exceptionally bad drivers. And people do push for greater regulation on cars all the time, especially when new technologies become available- look at the bans on cell phones and texting, the push to lower the BAC for drunk drivers, etc. Consider that if you are a really bad driver, or a special class of driver, you can be prevented by your insurance company- and thus state law- from owning certain kinds of vehicles. Try to get a 17 year old insured on a new Mustang GT500, for example. Try getting insurance if you've been picked up for DUI in any state other than wisconsin (where a 6th offense DUI is not uncommon).

    Also, auto manufacturers are regulated. As new safety equipment becomes available, that equipment is mandated to be put in all new cars. Airbags. Anti lock brakes. Traction and stability control systems. Seatbelts. LATCH systems. Hoods must have 2" of space between the inside of the hood and the engine to make collisions with pedestrians safer. Children under the age of what, 13 or so? are not allowed to sit in the front seat of a car. The kids are definitely being thought of.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  10. #10
    xxl
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    The solution?

    More guns, fewer restrictions. Onliest person who can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

    Obviously.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    ...
    On the other hand, we have had well over THREE THOUSAND gun deaths since Newtown (not counting suicides).
    Crime is crime. It could be gun death, knife death, or bomb. The solution is deal with criminals as criminals and not worry so much about what tool they used. There are people out there who seek take away guns. Fine you can believe that if you want, but many of these people use death or shootings as way to spark anger to try to pass new laws to get guns removed. Many don't care if the impact on gun violence or even crime will be lower. They just want to take away guns and these are just excuses.

    To stop gun deaths you must attack not tool or instrument used but the criminal that is using them. Boston could have been mass shooting, but instead they chose a bomb intended not so much to kill, but to maim and injure. Bad people will do bad things. You have to go after the people.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    There's a major disconnect on gun control in this country. On the one hand, we have a country full of legal gun owners who use their guns in a responsible way, store them properly and don't murder anyone. That's all good.

    On the other hand, we have had well over THREE THOUSAND gun deaths since Newtown (not counting suicides).

    We have legal gun owners who should be able to own guns, we have criminals who should not. We have laws and consequences for gun crimes but we don't enforce them particularly well, and gun industry lobbying groups have done a pretty good job of weakening those laws.

    So, what do y'all propose to do? What I don't want to hear is "Everyone needs to buy a gun" because that just is not ever going to happen- it's the gun fan version of "Ban all guns forever." I want to hear some rational solutions from gun owners and gun lovers about how to fix the problem. Or even to just come to an agreement on what the problem actually is- Is it safe to say that we currently have too many guns in this country?

    I do not want to take away YOUR legally owned guns. But there are a crap load of crappy guns owned illegally and used illegally. That's my target- getting rid of the excess supply of illegal guns. Because any way you slice it, over 3000 gun deaths in 5 months in a country that is not having a civil war is pretty appalling.

    Here's my goal: I want to hear from gun owners and fans of firearms. I DO NOT want to hear from you if you want to ban all firearms. I DO NOT WANT anti gun people riling up the gunners and derailing this thread. Start your own thread for that.
    Well how to get guns out of criminals hands is the 64,000 question. It's not like they are going to voluntarily give them up. It's a tool of their trade. Penalties for using guns in the commission of a crime must be so severe that people quit doing it.

    As an aside - you live in Madison, WI, right? Have you heard of a band up there by the name of "The Jimmy's" I saw them in Indy a while back and they are outstanding.
    +1 for the NRA!

    Guns save lives.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    but many of these people use death or shootings as way to spark anger to try to pass new laws to get guns removed. Many don't care if the impact on gun violence or even crime will be lower. They just want to take away guns and these are just excuses.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    Drivers are quite regulated. Drive badly enough, you can lose your insurance and your rights to drive. Also prison time for exceptionally bad drivers. And people do push for greater regulation on cars all the time, especially when new technologies become available- look at the bans on cell phones and texting, the push to lower the BAC for drunk drivers, etc. Consider that if you are a really bad driver, or a special class of driver, you can be prevented by your insurance company- and thus state law- from owning certain kinds of vehicles. Try to get a 17 year old insured on a new Mustang GT500, for example. Try getting insurance if you've been picked up for DUI in any state other than wisconsin (where a 6th offense DUI is not uncommon).

    Also, auto manufacturers are regulated. As new safety equipment becomes available, that equipment is mandated to be put in all new cars. Airbags. Anti lock brakes. Traction and stability control systems. Seatbelts. LATCH systems. Hoods must have 2" of space between the inside of the hood and the engine to make collisions with pedestrians safer. Children under the age of what, 13 or so? are not allowed to sit in the front seat of a car. The kids are definitely being thought of.
    I don't think there is a lot of Federal legislation on average drivers. Interstate commerce is heavily regulated but most traffic laws are State by State as are licensing systems and insurance.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarbiker View Post
    Well how to get guns out of criminals hands is the 64,000 question. It's not like they are going to voluntarily give them up. It's a tool of their trade. Penalties for using guns in the commission of a crime must be so severe that people quit doing it.

    As an aside - you live in Madison, WI, right? Have you heard of a band up there by the name of "The Jimmy's" I saw them in Indy a while back and they are outstanding.
    That is what really is the problem insofar as I am concerned. Even if the Second Amendment were repealed today, Congress outlawed private ownership of guns and the Obama Justice Department made confiscation of all guns its number 1 priority (how's that for a stereotypical liberal wet dream/conservative nightmare?), there are so many guns already in the hands of the criminal element that the killings that plague places like Baltimore and Chicago would not stop. I seriously doubt that they even would decline. Back in the 1970s when I was in college,I used to be a proponent of extreme gun control measures. But, if I were a politician today I would not be willing to spend the political capital to enact gun control measures that are not going to have any impact on 99% of the crime in this country.
    I try to be perfectly civil, until someone really pisses me off.

  16. #16
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Crime is crime. It could be gun death, knife death, or bomb. The solution is deal with criminals as criminals and not worry so much about what tool they used. There are people out there who seek take away guns. Fine you can believe that if you want, but many of these people use death or shootings as way to spark anger to try to pass new laws to get guns removed. Many don't care if the impact on gun violence or even crime will be lower. They just want to take away guns and these are just excuses.

    To stop gun deaths you must attack not tool or instrument used but the criminal that is using them. Boston could have been mass shooting, but instead they chose a bomb intended not so much to kill, but to maim and injure. Bad people will do bad things. You have to go after the people.
    If the bulk of the murders in the country are committed by the same tools, maybe we should look at why these tools are laying around the country by the millions in the first place. We can still go after the people, too.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarbiker View Post
    Well how to get guns out of criminals hands is the 64,000 question. It's not like they are going to voluntarily give them up. It's a tool of their trade. Penalties for using guns in the commission of a crime must be so severe that people quit doing it.

    As an aside - you live in Madison, WI, right? Have you heard of a band up there by the name of "The Jimmy's" I saw them in Indy a while back and they are outstanding.
    Where did those guns originate from?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chudak View Post
    How many people have died in automobile accidents since Newtown? How many of them were children? Why aren't the same people pushing for gun control pushing also pushing for automobile control?
    because guns are scary
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    That is what really is the problem insofar as I am concerned. Even if the Second Amendment were repealed today, Congress outlawed private ownership of guns and the Obama Justice Department made confiscation of all guns its number 1 priority (how's that for a stereotypical liberal wet dream/conservative nightmare?), there are so many guns already in the hands of the criminal element that the killings that plague places like Baltimore and Chicago would not stop. I seriously doubt that they even would decline. Back in the 1970s when I was in college,I used to be a proponent of extreme gun control measures. But, if I were a politician today I would not be willing to spend the political capital to enact gun control measures that are not going to have any impact on 99% of the crime in this country.
    That is the elephant in the room. A very real question is just how much do we want to give up for safety? 911 changed us forever, we will never again have the freedom and the right to the privacy that our FF's envisioned. I'm not so much lamenting as recognizing those changes as fact. When we started building a fence on our border it made my head spin. One of the most profound moments in my life was watching a hated fence come down. I watched a newscast with my sons who were grown men in their mid 20s and they asked me what was the big deal. I was surprised that they didn't know. That was the moment that the world knew for sure that the Cold War that the dominated our lives for much of two generations was over. Now we are living in fear and sacrificing rights and freedoms because of that fear. I'm glad I'm old.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    That is what really is the problem insofar as I am concerned. Even if the Second Amendment were repealed today, Congress outlawed private ownership of guns and the Obama Justice Department made confiscation of all guns its number 1 priority (how's that for a stereotypical liberal wet dream/conservative nightmare?), there are so many guns already in the hands of the criminal element that the killings that plague places like Baltimore and Chicago would not stop. I seriously doubt that they even would decline. Back in the 1970s when I was in college,I used to be a proponent of extreme gun control measures. But, if I were a politician today I would not be willing to spend the political capital to enact gun control measures that are not going to have any impact on 99% of the crime in this country.
    Yep, and only 4% of the population sees guns as a major problem in the US.

    Gallup: Only 4% of Americans Think Gun Control is an Important Problem | CNS News

    So, politicians being politicians are putting the issue on the back burner.

    I'm not a big gun nut, I don't own a gun, but I do sometimes do a little skeet shooting. We can make guns illegal tomorrow, just like drinking and driving, pot smoking, and cheating on your taxes, but that is not going to end the violence.

    I hate to say, but violence is a part of us. It's not going anywhere.

    Think about, do we find ourselves telling our kids it's ok to see that movie, because good thing, just a couple of guys getting shot, but there is no nudity, so it's ok? What’s up with that? We let our kids see violence, but God forbid they see a booby?

  21. #21
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    Good question OP.

    TLG hit all the nails on the head and I agree 100%. I think though that the "people" want more done, more quickly so we're just throwing a handful of darts to see what sticks.

  22. #22
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    It's been said before. Enforce existing laws. That's too difficult? Then work harder at it. Commit a crime witha firearm, no plea bargain. Maximum sentence for the crime committed.
    You know when a crime is labelled a hate crime the penalties become more draconian than for a "non" hate crime. Treat crimes committed with firearms the exact same way.

    increased mandatory prison time for possession and sale of illegal weapons; stiffer penalties for criminals who use guns to commit felonies; life in prison without parole for individuals who kill on-duty emergency responders;
    (Senator Skelos Unveils Tough Plan to Crack Down on Illegal Guns and Criminals Who Use Guns | New York State Senate)

    Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez want those caught carrying loaded, illegal weapons to get more prison time and to serve nearly their entire sentence under the theory that taking gun criminals off the street before they shoot could help reduce Chicago's rising homicide rate.
    (Emanuel, Alvarez want tougher, longer sentences for those caught with illegal guns - Chicago Tribune)

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    If the bulk of the murders in the country are committed by the same tools, maybe we should look at why these tools are laying around the country by the millions in the first place. We can still go after the people, too.
    Yep murderers are "tools" alright. Interesting that going after the people is your second thought.

  24. #24
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandan View Post
    It's been said before. Enforce existing laws. That's too difficult? Then work harder at it.
    But.... that costs money. Passing new laws... well that's free.

  25. #25
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    The ultimate problem is that we're an impatient society that is better at arguing than solving problems. We're a polar society that's better about getting angry and even than looking at root cause analysis.

    Furthermore, the politicians are talkers and inefficient as heck. If we accomplished as little as most politicians at our day job, we'd likely be canned from even the easiest of guv'mint jobs.

    Mental health: Unless someone has a criminal history, mental health tends to be protected under HIPAA. Even then, not everyone with a mental history has an official diagnosis or treatment. Expanding a background check to all people living with the gun buyer would be a very monumental task. You could mandate that all firearms are locked up and nobody else has a key, but you'd never be able to enforce that.

    Criminals: Despite being against the law, some still have guns. Yet, we'd never have the audacity to inspect violent felons for weapons. Nope, they have rights. If convicted felons are caught with weapons, lock them up and throw away the key. With that, we'd be complaining prisons are overcrowded...so we should legalize weed and abolish bike helmet laws.

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