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  1. #1
    the_rydster
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    Question How best to help 'native' people?

    I thought I would start another thread about this interesting topic, especially given that the other thread is getting very long and is surely likely to be locked soon.

    So we have see over the last few decades, movements to offer 'native' people (in countries such as Australia and America) special financial benefits and privileges.

    Examples of this could be the way native Americans have benefited from federal tax exemptions, and have built Casinos. In Australia there has been much compensation, and things such as the Native Title act ensure that Aboriginals can receive cash because this or that mining company, is using the land which they have an ancestoral claim to.

    The point is...is this 'money for nothing' kind of policy beneficial long term, assuming that the aim is enable these people to eventually have all the opportunities that any 'white' person has, and not just to keep their stomachs full of bread.

    In Australia some of the Aboriginal townships are in an appalling state, rife with the worst drug addictions, child abuse, and corruption. It seems to me that just 'flooding cash' into these areas is only a short term solution (and a poor one), not only does it enable the perpetuation of a 'benefit culture', but it enables the drug addicts and alcoholics to continue their lifestyle.

    It seems to me that much of the Aboriginal people in Australia have simply become a parasitic class...living off the guilt fueled hand-outs of the 'whites'. That may not sound very PC but it seems to me to be quite self-evident.

    So my point is that it seems counter-productive long terms to just 'hand out cash', and is actually doing these people a massive disservice...it is ruining them. The only people benefiting are liberal whites seeking absolution from perceived historical crimes.

    The free cash makes the 'native' people victims all over again. "History repeating itself" to quote a famous Communist.

    So how best to solve this kind of problem?

    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    Well it all starts with a sincere apology.

    //had to do it.
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  3. #3
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    ahhhhhh

    Oh, I see, we are once again helping others by doing less than was done before.

    I usually use the quote:

    "Besides that Mrs Linclon, how was the play?"

    The story of the white mans burden is very very old.............Talk about History repeating itself.
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  4. #4
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    Pay them a fair price for their land?

  5. #5
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    ha ha ha

    Quote Originally Posted by il sogno
    Pay them a fair price for their land?
    OMFG

    ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Fair" price for "their" "land.

    Tears on my face....OMG.......
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  6. #6
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by il sogno
    Pay them a fair price for their land?
    How does that help them though? It just seems to perpetuate the problems.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by il sogno
    Pay them a fair price for their land?
    "...are under lease from the Tohono O'odham Nation at the amount of a quarter dollar per acre yearly, which was overwhelmingly approved by the Council in the 1950s"
    What? you don't consider that fair?
    Blows your hair back.

  8. #8
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    Consider that these native peoples were doing fine before we "discovered" the land they had lived on for thousands of years. Likely, they would have gone on doing fine without us.

    We came along, took their land, treated them like animals and destroyed their culture and their way of life. In some cases we stole their children.

    In the U.S., some tribes saw the writing on the wall and signed treaties with the government and began aggressive programs to integrate themselves into European style society. The Cherokee were rewarded for this progressive thinking by being forcibly removed from their lands in Georgia- lands they were legally entitled to- (the Indian removal act) and forced into Oklahoma- you may remember this as the trail of tears.

    Since the U.S. couldn't even hold to it's own treaties, I'd say that legally, we owe them something.

  9. #9
    Windrider (Stubborn)
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Consider that these native peoples were doing fine before we "discovered" the land they had lived on for thousands of years. Likely, they would have gone on doing fine without us.

    We came along, took their land, treated them like animals and destroyed their culture and their way of life. In some cases we stole their children.

    In the U.S., some tribes saw the writing on the wall and signed treaties with the government and began aggressive programs to integrate themselves into European style society. The Cherokee were rewarded for this progressive thinking by being forcibly removed from their lands in Georgia- lands they were legally entitled to- (the Indian removal act) and forced into Oklahoma- you may remember this as the trail of tears.

    Since the U.S. couldn't even hold to it's own treaties, I'd say that legally, we owe them something.
    you talk about native americans as if they were a homogenous group.........there were as many differences between tribes and within tribes as there are within & amongst non-native americans.

    While I agree that some type of justice is required, Until we acknowledge that none of them are the idealized native american (and never have been) and start treating them as complex humans, anything done will be lip service and our own guilt reducing only.

    To the OP. I think, as with any adult or group of adults, we should let them sort out their own solutions. If they negotiate a solution with us that involves money.........isn't it up to them to deploy that money? If they make mistakes, isn't it up to them to acknowledge and learn from them? What you seem to be implying is that they can't handle a settlement...that they are somehow choildren of ours.

    Len



    "Evil....is the complete lack of Empathy!"

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    No one is as bad as the worst thing they have done & no one is as good as the best thing they have done.........think of that when you feel like you understand someone.

  10. #10
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J
    To the OP. I think, as with any adult or group of adults, we should let them sort out their own solutions. If they negotiate a solution with us that involves money.........isn't it up to them to deploy that money? If they make mistakes, isn't it up to them to acknowledge and learn from them? What you seem to be implying is that they can't handle a settlement...that they are somehow choildren of ours.
    Good point.

    The notion of 'helping' them does imply a superiority on the side of those with power (the 'whites' - hate using that term but it is effective)...it is akin to treating them like children.

    But what do you do though? Continue enabling them? That seems irresponsible to me. It is not an easy problem to solve I admit.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J
    you talk about native americans as if they were a homogenous group.........there were as many differences between tribes and within tribes as there are within & amongst non-native americans.

    While I agree that some type of justice is required, Until we acknowledge that none of them are the idealized native american (and never have been) and start treating them as complex humans, anything done will be lip service and our own guilt reducing only.

    To the OP. I think, as with any adult or group of adults, we should let them sort out their own solutions. If they negotiate a solution with us that involves money.........isn't it up to them to deploy that money? If they make mistakes, isn't it up to them to acknowledge and learn from them? What you seem to be implying is that they can't handle a settlement...that they are somehow choildren of ours.

    Len
    I was really thinking of the Cherokee in specific- I mean, they did everything legally and by the book and still got screwed- to me, that's reprehensible.

    And while many of our great-grandparents were still in Europe when the indian removal act was written, that doesn't absolve the government from it's responsibility to the people it forcibly relocated (with no compensation).

    These people weren't "noble savages" or "idealized native americans", they were citizens who deserved equal protection under the law. Protection they were denied due to the color of their skin.

  12. #12
    Yo no fui.
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    If you read up on Indian Law in the US (which I have), it's a long story in which the federal government has vacilated between policies of forcible integration and isolation. As other have pointed out, the one costant (until recently) is that the federal government has taken what it has wanted (normally, land) when it has wanted it.

    Nevertheless, I belive that US Indian Law, or at least certain aspects of it, provides a good example of how to deal with native peoples. In short, you recognize that they are sovereign nations, separate from, yet ultimately subservient to the conquering nation--somehat similar to federalism. You then give them limited soveriegn power to govern themselves. This, broadly stated obviously, is how to best address the situation.

    Finally, before someone points it out, there are obvious logical inconsistencies with "limited soverignty." However, we have managed to work with this in the U.S.
    "It is better to conquer yourself, than to win a thousand battles." -Dhammapada

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  13. #13
    ab aeterno
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    Alaskan Natives, the athabaskan and inuit, as a people are screwed. There culture is pretty far gone and native villages have little to no economy. Education in villages is abysmal, but who would want to get a high school diploma when there aren't any jobs. Alcoholism is rampant, as is abuse of all sorts since there is too much burden on the victims. The problem isn't the money, there is money, but probably not enough. The main problem with the villages is there aren't any teachers, police, or doctors. We've given them drugs, alcohol, food, and money, but no infrastructure. I've seen some villages where every girl over the age of 10 had been raped and everyone over the age of 12 had an addiction of some kind. I don't think some of these villages can be saved at least not with money alone. We need people that are willing to help educate and assist these people. The culture has been ravaged and it's going to take a lot of effort to ever get back to the sustainability they once had.

  14. #14
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    "So how best to solve this kind of problem?"

    Give them free booze.


    What is the statute of limitations for this sort of reparations? Is there a time limit????

    300 years??......500 years??...1000 years???
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  15. #15
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon
    We've given them drugs, alcohol, food, and money, but no infrastructure. I've seen some villages where every girl over the age of 10 had been raped and everyone over the age of 12 had an addiction of some kind. I don't think some of these villages can be saved at least not with money alone. We need people that are willing to help educate and assist these people. The culture has been ravaged and it's going to take a lot of effort to ever get back to the sustainability they once had.
    That would be an argument for forced integration.

    Half-measures have arguably let to this kind of state of affairs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo
    If you read up on Indian Law in the US (which I have), it's a long story in which the federal government has vacilated between policies of forcible integration and isolation. As other have pointed out, the one costant (until recently) is that the federal government has taken what it has wanted (normally, land) when it has wanted it.

    Nevertheless, I belive that US Indian Law, or at least certain aspects of it, provides a good example of how to deal with native peoples. In short, you recognize that they are sovereign nations, separate from, yet ultimately subservient to the conquering nation--somehat similar to federalism. You then give them limited soveriegn power to govern themselves. This, broadly stated obviously, is how to best address the situation.

    Finally, before someone points it out, there are obvious logical inconsistencies with "limited soverignty." However, we have managed to work with this in the U.S.
    Well, it wasn't quite limited to native americans regarding the US gov abuse and lies. Many latinos in TX, NM, AR and CA legally owned lands through contracts they had signed with the US gov, only to later have their lands first squatted on and then taken from them by caucasian settlers, in particular farmers and miners as mass expansion west took place in the 1800's. Many of these people had stone cold legally binding deeds of Trust to property which were essentailly voided by the US gov when it was policically expedient to do so in favor of what I'll call "Whitey's Great Westward Move in the name of Progress". :-)
    "The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force."

    Adolph Hitler, 1934

    "The great mass of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."

    Adolph Hitler 1935

  17. #17
    Windrider (Stubborn)
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    Good point.

    The notion of 'helping' them does imply a superiority on the side of those with power (the 'whites' - hate using that term but it is effective)...it is akin to treating them like children.

    But what do you do though? Continue enabling them? That seems irresponsible to me. It is not an easy problem to solve I admit.
    I think not trusting them to (Ultimatly) either integrate into the society while perserving whatever of their history is important to them or dying out as a sub-culture is enabling behavior because the natural consequence is that we need to do something to protect them from themselves.

    However, I agree with those that say that the gov't owes them justice.......which will involve (or should) a negotiated settlement that will/may include monetary compensation, tax breaks/educational & other assistance and/or whatever is important to the individual tribes.

    What they do with that is up to them. Not us. Letting people make their own mistakes is the opposite of enabling.

    Len



    "Evil....is the complete lack of Empathy!"

    ""We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. " Aristotle

    No one is as bad as the worst thing they have done & no one is as good as the best thing they have done.........think of that when you feel like you understand someone.

  18. #18
    ab aeterno
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    Not necessarily forced integration especially since education would entail teaching subsistence techniques that have been lost over the years.
    Remember these people are in the middle of nowhere, you can fly or walk to these villages only. There isn't a way to integrate them without removing them from the villages.

  19. #19
    Windrider (Stubborn)
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    I was really thinking of the Cherokee in specific- I mean, they did everything legally and by the book and still got screwed- to me, that's reprehensible.

    And while many of our great-grandparents were still in Europe when the indian removal act was written, that doesn't absolve the government from it's responsibility to the people it forcibly relocated (with no compensation).

    These people weren't "noble savages" or "idealized native americans", they were citizens who deserved equal protection under the law. Protection they were denied due to the color of their skin.
    I agree and was making less of a specific post about yours then using yours to make a more general statement.

    Len



    "Evil....is the complete lack of Empathy!"

    ""We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. " Aristotle

    No one is as bad as the worst thing they have done & no one is as good as the best thing they have done.........think of that when you feel like you understand someone.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    How does that help them though? It just seems to perpetuate the problems.
    It helps them because by doing this you treat them as your equal. Paying them a fair price for their land is not a charitable giveaway. It is a business deal.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster

    It seems to me that much of the Aboriginal people in Australia have simply become a parasitic class.

    Discuss.
    What have you done in your life that grants you such superiority over these people?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostzapper2007
    Well, it wasn't quite limited to native americans regarding the US gov abuse and lies. Many latinos in TX, NM, AR and CA legally owned lands through contracts they had signed with the US gov, only to later have their lands first squatted on and then taken from them by caucasian settlers, in particular farmers and miners as mass expansion west took place in the 1800's. Many of these people had stone cold legally binding deeds of Trust to property which were essentailly voided by the US gov when it was policically expedient to do so in favor of what I'll call "Whitey's Great Westward Move in the name of Progress". :-)
    There's a lot of historical evils out there. In a way. it's sort of a question of when you want to look at the probelm. I live in Colorado, where the San Luis Valley is located, so I'll use that an an example.

    The Spaniards came in an claimed the southwest for Spain, essentially stealing that land from the naitves through the doctrine of discovery. Some title tricked down from the land grants to small farmers. Legally, they still have good title even though the "border crossed them," as they like to say down south. There's a big case still going on about some of those land grants. Some of the land was later stolen again by white settlers and the title was passed to innocent purchasers.

    So, you can easily run into a problem where the Spanish and mestizo settlers who took the land are not so historically innocent (as a people, not individuals) only to later become the victims. It's all very complicated.
    "It is better to conquer yourself, than to win a thousand battles." -Dhammapada

    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

    "A true cyclist sometimes has to bite the dust before he can reach the stars. Laurent Fignon

  23. #23
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J
    What they do with that is up to them. Not us. Letting people make their own mistakes is the opposite of enabling.

    Len
    Why is giving money...'justice'? This is just a western capitalist prejudice.

    The Aboriginal people had no money when they were hunter-gathers.

    I see your point about letting people make their own mistakes, but with the culture of benefits/handouts which is ubiquitous in many native 'communities' this is what we are absolutely not doing , we are actually making them very much dependent (on the 'white' state) and not-responsible for themselves...this is the flip-side.

  24. #24
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Porter
    What have you done in your life that grants you such superiority over these people?
    Why would you ask that sort of question?

    This thread is not about the state of my ego.

  25. #25
    Yo no fui.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY
    What is the statute of limitations for this sort of reparations? Is there a time limit????

    300 years??......500 years??...1000 years???
    The Anglo-Saxons are preparing a class action against the Normas as we speak!
    "It is better to conquer yourself, than to win a thousand battles." -Dhammapada

    "Fact is only what you believe; fact and fiction work as a team." Jack Johnson

    "A true cyclist sometimes has to bite the dust before he can reach the stars. Laurent Fignon

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