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  1. #1
    xxl
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    Manhattan Project, er, Declaration...

    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin...ing_with_a.php

    Anyone signed? Apparently, the signatories are cool with civil disobedience, if it comes to that. I've seen a flier circulating that urges people to withhold the portions of their taxes that go to fund gummint projects that don't dovetail with their beliefs.

    BTW, this is a Chuck Colson (yeah, that Chuck Colson) production.

  2. #2
    jaded bitter joy crusher
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl
    I've seen a flier circulating that urges people to withhold the portions of their taxes that go to fund gummint projects that don't dovetail with their beliefs.
    I had lots of pacifist Christian friends in the 80s who withheld the portion of their taxes that went to fund the military. They were happy to go to jail for that, as part of the civil disobedience. I wonder how many people signing the Manhattan declaration will be happy to go to jail for their beliefs, or is this merely a bluff they don't think Uncle Sam will call?

    Personally, I think civil disobedience as a means of bearing witness when there are no alternatives within the system is an honorable and legitimate activity, regardless whether I agree with the political position of the protesters.

    However, it's laughable to say that people who are opposed to gay marriage and abortion are so disenfranchised that civil disobedience is the only option open to them. This is the same thing I said to my leftist pacifist friends in the 80s, who I thought were quite precious and self-important for painting themselves as martyrs rather than doing the messy work of politics.

    Oh, and I still can't figure out the syllogism that the only way to protect religious freedom is to prevent religious that do believe in gay marriage from acting on their beliefs. Could someone explain that one to me, please?
    Fredke commented in your thread. You won't believe what happens next!

  3. #3
    Palm trees & sunshine!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke
    However, it's laughable to say that people who are opposed to gay marriage and abortion are so disenfranchised that civil disobedience is the only option open to them.
    Prop 8 should be proof positive of that.


    supervillain

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke
    Oh, and I still can't figure out the syllogism that the only way to protect religious freedom is to prevent religious that do believe in gay marriage from acting on their beliefs. Could someone explain that one to me, please?
    Well, too many people are high-grade morons so what they really mean by protecting religious freedom is protecting their own particular brand of religion not protecting any brand of religion. Afterall, when you're right, you don't have to compromise

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke
    However, it's laughable to say that people who are opposed to gay marriage and abortion are so disenfranchised that civil disobedience is the only option open to them.
    What these folks are really "fighting" is the fact that over the last 40 or so years the country has become more secular and plural and we've actually got around to starting to take the separation of church & state seriously.

    Prior to that general protestant Christianity and in some areas Catholicism was the de facto official religion of the country whatever lip service might have been given otherwise.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke
    Oh, and I still can't figure out the syllogism that the only way to protect religious freedom is to prevent religious that do believe in gay marriage from acting on their beliefs. Could someone explain that one to me, please?
    There are other practices based on religion that are banned by law. Snake dancing, polygamy and other cultural religious practices that society finds to be dangerous or harmful to the people involved or to society in general have laws that interfere with them. I haven't heard of anyone being locked up for a religious marriage ceremony but the government refuses to to recognize that union in most cases. I think you can actually get arrested for some of the other banned practices.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    There are other practices based on religion that are banned by law. Snake dancing, polygamy and other cultural religious practices that society finds to be dangerous or harmful to the people involved or to society in general have laws that interfere with them. I haven't heard of anyone being locked up for a religious marriage ceremony but the government refuses to to recognize that union in most cases. I think you can actually get arrested for some of the other banned practices.

    None of these practices should be banned where only consenting adults are involved.

  8. #8
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    I'm with you Rocco

    Quote Originally Posted by rocco
    None of these practices should be banned where only consenting adults are involved.
    but I want to make the plural marriage consent age at least 21
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  9. #9
    Palm trees & sunshine!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocco
    None of these practices should be banned where only consenting adults are involved.

    I completely agree but, for discussion's sake (and a bit of a hijack), how about seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws and other laws put in place to protect ourselves from ourselves?


    supervillain

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie
    but I want to make the plural marriage consent age at least 21
    But I want to marry my 13 year old cousin and her daddy thinks it's a fine idea. That's two consenting adults and our religion encourages it, we got married in a church by a pastor.

  11. #11
    jaded bitter joy crusher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    But I want to marry my 13 year old cousin and her daddy thinks it's a fine idea. That's two consenting adults and our religion encourages it, we got married in a church by a pastor.
    See, that's what I'm saying. You should be free to marry her daddy in church, with a pastor. But leave her out of it until she's 21.
    Fredke commented in your thread. You won't believe what happens next!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke
    See, that's what I'm saying. You should be free to marry her daddy in church, with a pastor. But leave her out of it until she's 21.
    But I don't love him. She's my dream girl and she is absoulutely crazy about me. We want to be together and our rights are being denied by a cold hearted hypocritical society. The Church is in collusion with the gubmint on this here problem as well. Priests can have little boys but just let one of us common folks fall in love with a really young woman and HELL NO is all we hear. Why can't we be more like India? This here country is sooooo backards.

  13. #13
    ab aeterno
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    It's really hard to feel righteous and indignant if you don't feel persecuted and a minority.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon
    It's really hard to feel righteous and indignant if you don't feel persecuted and a minority.
    Ain't it the truth? Me and her may have to move to France and I'll make some movies. That oughta improve our image back here.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    I completely agree but, for discussion's sake (and a bit of a hijack), how about seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws and other laws put in place to protect ourselves from ourselves?

    Same position... These laws should apply to minors only... Or perhaps those under age 21.

    I'm visiting my folks in Chicago and I've noticed the state is frequently running seatbelt ads/PSAs on the radio. This seems rather frivolous to me... Especially considering the state's budget problems.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    I completely agree but, for discussion's sake (and a bit of a hijack), how about seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws and other laws put in place to protect ourselves from ourselves?
    I say ditch them and let the fools who choose not to wear them solve the donor organ shortage.
    Originally posted by thatsmybush:
    I can only speak for my self, but if Fergie wanted to rub her lovely lady lumps on me, I could play the role of "human stripper pole."

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogger
    I say ditch them and let the fools who choose not to wear them solve the donor organ shortage.
    Sad thing is, they're the same idiots who refuse to sign their organ donor cards.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Sad thing is, they're the same idiots who refuse to sign their organ donor cards.
    Okay, let the punishment for not wearing helmets or seatbelts be the forfeit of taking their organs into their graves.
    Originally posted by thatsmybush:
    I can only speak for my self, but if Fergie wanted to rub her lovely lady lumps on me, I could play the role of "human stripper pole."

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