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  1. #1
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    New Chinese "game-changer" missile now operational.

    Smart bastids. Funny how the media is so fixated and obsessed with a few nut-bags living in caves but pay virtually no attention to the very real shift in the global power balance. Seriously, it's as if China barely exists in the West. That is a big mistake. The invasion of Taiwan is coming.



    “So now we know – China’s [anti-ship ballistic missile] is no longer aspirational,” Andrew Erickson, an expert on the Chinese military at the US Naval War College, said in response to Adm Willard’s comments to the Asahi newspaper.

    Defence analysts have called the Dongfeng 21 D missile a “game changer” since it could force US aircraft carriers to stay away from waters where China does not want to see them. These include the Taiwan Strait where a potential conflict could develop over the self-ruled island which China claims.

    The land-based missile is designed to target and track aircraft carrier groups with the help of satellites, unmanned aerial vehicles and over-the-horizon radar. Aircraft carriers and their accompanying ships are unable to defend themselves against such a threat.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3e69c85a-1...#axzz19Vdtr2Xy

  2. #2
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    might be time to bomb another Chinese embassy, just to let them know we care.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha & Omega
    Smart bastids. Funny how the media is so fixated and obsessed with a few nut-bags living in caves but pay virtually no attention to the very real shift in the global power balance. Seriously, it's as if China barely exists in the West. That is a big mistake. The invasion of Taiwan is coming.

    The US will stand by and watch if the PRC moves to unify. There is nothing gained by anyone if the situation escalates to an armed conflict. If it comes, the invasion will be peaceful. The Taiwanese I know don't consider the issue important at all.


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  4. #4
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    Firstly, unification is not happening any time soon. Taiwan is still many years out from allowing that.

    Secondly, I still question how credible a threat this weapon is. I doubt china will ever release a demonstration of the weapon as that would be seen as too much flexing. The techonology relies heavily on satellites and subs to target the ships for them. It seems like unless the attack was a first strike we would take out the necessary satellites and the subs would have trouble infiltrating our carrier groups
    Last edited by TheDon; 12-29-2010 at 08:51 AM.

  5. #5
    Urb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69
    might be time to bomb another Chinese embassy, just to let them know we care.
    You get all the sleep you need when you are dead

  6. #6
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    China has nukes game ended in a stalemate along time ago.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullvine
    China has nukes game ended in a stalemate along time ago.
    I don't know about that. There is bound to be some tension between the US and China in the future. Only question is whether it will result in war. I think China is actually taking a path to beat us down economically without ever firing a bullet, missile, etc. Eventually, a lack of resources might be the issue. We shall see.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Modified by unknown from Bovard's original quote<o:p></o:p>

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  8. #8
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    Only question is whether it will result in war. I think China is actually taking a path to beat us down economically without ever firing a bullet, missile, etc.
    I just don't see how it's possible for two nuclear-armed powers to engage in a limited conventional war. Eventually, the losing side is going to up the ante with nukes or back off. Proxy wars I can see- but not a direct conflict. I agree that China is more about economic war than a firing war.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric
    I just don't see how it's possible for two nuclear-armed powers to engage in a limited conventional war. Eventually, the losing side is going to up the ante with nukes or back off. Proxy wars I can see- but not a direct conflict. I agree that China is more about economic war than a firing war.

    And even in an economic war, it does neither us or China any good to crush the other. They need us to buy their good so they can employ their billion workers. We need them to make cheap good so we can placate our consumer masses with toys to keep them from revolting over the imbalance between the wealthy and the other 99%.

    Europe will never fill the void the USA would leave because Europe gets being loyal to domestic industry.


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  10. #10
    E Plurbus Elvis
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    We've known about the development of this weapon for years. It is one of many anti-access platforms they're developing to keep our carrier battle groups at too great a distance from Chinese waters to be effective.

    This is not that big of a deal. So they can develop a missile that can hit something the size of an aircraft carrier. I'm not impressed. We possess a variety of tactical missiles on stealth platforms that can fly a bomb through a specific window at a specific address. This is hardly a threat to our power projection or first strike capabilities.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElvisMerckx
    This is hardly a threat to our power projection or first strike capabilities.

    Wouldn't surprise me if we had an SSBN or SSGN sitting in or right outside of Hong Kong harbor.



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  12. #12
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    not only through a window

    Quote Originally Posted by ElvisMerckx
    We've known about the development of this weapon for years. It is one of many anti-access platforms they're developing to keep our carrier battle groups at too great a distance from Chinese waters to be effective.

    This is not that big of a deal. So they can develop a missile that can hit something the size of an aircraft carrier. I'm not impressed. We possess a variety of tactical missiles on stealth platforms that can fly a bomb through a specific window at a specific address. This is hardly a threat to our power projection or first strike capabilities.
    but then have it explode 2 rooms away leaving the room with the window it came through pretty much unscathed
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie
    but then have it explode 2 rooms away leaving the room with the window it came through pretty much unscathed

    Why is "The enemy can not push a button if you disable his hand." coming to mind.




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  14. #14
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    Um, have you people forgotten about North Korea? We've already been in a shooting war with China, during the atomic era.

    And, it could happen again, depending on the nutjob du jour in Pyongyang.
    * posted by Creakybot 2013 all rights reserved.
    * not actually waterproof.

  15. #15
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    Meh,,,
    Remember the Exocet missiles the Argentines used during the Falklands war in 1982??? Surface ships have always been targets, the Navy understands this. They have defensive measures they can take for conventional missiles, but against nuclear tipped, I suspect there are none.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    And even in an economic war, it does neither us or China any good to crush the other. They need us to buy their good so they can employ their billion workers. We need them to make cheap good so we can placate our consumer masses with toys to keep them from revolting over the imbalance between the wealthy and the other 99%.
    Ken I think you miss the point, China won't NEED the US in the future, one billion consumers who are dead set on joining the middle class is a big enough economy on it's own.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    Europe will never fill the void the USA would leave because Europe gets being loyal to domestic industry.
    Forget Europe it's last century's news. Financial imbalance between member states will split the EU. It's the Indian ocean that will be the balance of power in the later 21st century.
    Taiwan will eventually peacefully reunite with China. Actually China will move more to the center and Taiwan will move a little more left. The US is already losing it's influence in that region and in the long range scheme of things will be relegated to that of spectator. India and China are the dynamic powers in the region. America with it's escalating debt will be forced to pull it's horns in and concentrate more on the Americas.
    Militarily, I wouldn't worry about the nuke option as a viable weapon to be used but in the arm wrestle of global influence those big biceps will make many a nation cower. Pakistan and North Korea are also in the region to keep all on their toes. Maybe I should move out of Japan?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha & Omega
    The land-based missile is designed to target and track aircraft carrier groups with the help of satellites, unmanned aerial vehicles and over-the-horizon radar. Aircraft carriers and their accompanying ships are unable to defend themselves against such a threat.
    Really struggling with how this is a game changer. Hitting an aircraft carrier with a missile isn't exactly a new idea...??? It's not like the Dept. of the Navy never thought of that.

  18. #18
    Big is relative
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    Doesn't keep me up at night. I guess my avatar is pretty cool now.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon
    Ken I think you miss the point, China won't NEED the US in the future, one billion consumers who are dead set on joining the middle class is a big enough economy on it's own.

    Won't happen. They'd have to pay their people a wage that would enable them to pay for the products. Their economy is built upon undercutting everyone else's labor costs (and in stealing every single idea and copying every single product they can). Raise labor rates there and their economy collapses because all of a sudden it'll make more sense to buy American again.

    Within the next 100 years we will see a stabilization and leveling of wages around most of the globe. Labor and manufacturing will center upon resources and raw materials, just like they did in the good old days. The battles, economic or military, will be waged over those resources -- just like in the good old days. If we're lucky and if we're smart, the nations will figure out a symbiotic way to get along and provide each other what they need to survive on a planet that's also undergoing a dramatic changes in food supply chains thanks to the climate changes and oil shortages.

    I don't think we'll be smart or lucky. The resulting wars and famines that kill of a few billion of us will probably be good for the long term health of the human race though, so at least there's that.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    Won't happen. They'd have to pay their people a wage that would enable them to pay for the products. Their economy is built upon undercutting everyone else's labor costs (and in stealing every single idea and copying every single product they can). Raise labor rates there and their economy collapses because all of a sudden it'll make more sense to buy American again..
    They said the same about Japan in the early seventies.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon
    They said the same about Japan in the early seventies.

    Yes, they did. And look at Japan now. The difference then is that when Japan got too expensive, we switched to buying from China. If and when China gets there, both us and them will be buying from somewhere else. Probably Africa since India is already "expensive". IF Africa can ever get itself out of the stone age and IF by the time it does, there are enough people still alive there after the famines caused by the changes in climate kill most of them. Now that I think about it, Africa is where the US and China will fight the Resource Wars if it comes to that.


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    Yes, they did. And look at Japan now. The difference then is that when Japan got too expensive, we switched to buying from China. If and when China gets there, both us and them will be buying from somewhere else. Probably Africa since India is already "expensive". IF Africa can ever get itself out of the stone age and IF by the time it does, there are enough people still alive there after the famines caused by the changes in climate kill most of them. Now that I think about it, Africa is where the US and China will fight the Resource Wars if it comes to that.
    There is an outside chance that when China gets too expensive we might just start making stuff for our own use right here at home like we once did. We have been and could be again, a self sufficient culture. Our technology is as good or better than any in the world and the only difference is the cost of labor and the regulations our businesses deal with. It has to happen at some point, manufacturing growth always raises expectations and living standards.

  23. #23
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    One has to wonder why Europe doesn't shake with fear at night that the Chinese are coming to get them.

    We're a long ways from China and there's a lot of land that could be of higher value to China before coming over to this country. I'd be more worried if I was Saudi Arabia, Iran, even Africa with all it's mineral wealth. India is right there in the mix with this. How about Australia, Russia, Phillipines, Japan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia.

    How much sleep do you think Canadians lose over a possible Chinese take over? Would China be willing to take on the whole world? Our military would have us believe it possible.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by heathb
    One has to wonder why Europe doesn't shake with fear at night that the Chinese are coming to get them.

    We're a long ways from China and there's a lot of land that could be of higher value to China before coming over to this country. I'd be more worried if I was Saudi Arabia, Iran, even Africa with all it's mineral wealth. India is right there in the mix with this. How about Australia, Russia, Phillipines, Japan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia.

    How much sleep do you think Canadians lose over a possible Chinese take over? Would China be willing to take on the whole world? Our military would have us believe it possible.
    You may have missed the fact that we would defend most of the countries you listed, a fact which shrinks the globe and brings us much closer to China than your estimate. Canada would probably be collateral damage.

  25. #25
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    I think the leaders in China are smart enough to realize that expansion by conquest has a poor ROI... their current economic policies are doing ok by them, and fewer people get killed. This is also good for the leadership as it reduces the number of uprisings that disrupt productivity.
    * posted by Creakybot 2013 all rights reserved.
    * not actually waterproof.

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