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  1. #1
    the_rydster
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    Oxford (UK) Mosque plans amplified call to prayer...

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    Interesting article about a Mosque in the UK (in a multicultural area) where the Mosque's leaders are trying to get the call to prayer sent out over loudspeaker.

    Not of course that I believe that this (strictly) violates secular principles, but it does raise a couple of issues.

    It is an extremely overbearing and environment-saturating activity. I believe that in Cairo the Egyptian authorities may actually have banned 'calls for prayers' over an amplifier. With a mosque literally on every street corner in Cairo one can imagine that the din is appalling.

    When I lived in Saudi I had to endure this sound...but also accept it as a local given. I do not want to hear it in the UK. Engage in your religious practices outside of my personal space please.

    It does raise another interesting issue about Islam: it wants to see itself as both victim and dominator, a kind of doublethink. Intervening in Kosovo and protecting Muslims is ok, whilst doing away with an Islamic regime oppressing minorities (rolling boulders onto gays, Christians, adulterous women etc) such as the Taliban is not ok, and a sign of worldwide oppression against Muslims and an anti-Islam agenda. Bizarrely many on the left probably hold this view also.

    It also rubbishes notions (held by moderates also) that Islam is victimized and oppressed by a tacit agenda in the West. Is this the action of a religion in fear of persecution? Catholic priests escaped into priest-holes during the dark periods of Catholic persecution in the late middle-ages in Britain, they certainly did not build places of worship. The Jewish religion had to keep itself discrete and private to ensure survival through much of its persecution suffering history.

  2. #2
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    The imam's amp may go to eleven but I must say that church bells easily reach thirteen. The municipal carillon easily tops that and irritates the crap out of everyone every 15 minutes for 14 hours a day, with extra, unprovoked, recitals every wednesday. As far as I'm concerned they have as little place in western society today as the muezzin. No muezzin, no church bells, no carillon. And don't get me started on "Draaiorgels"
    Originally posted by thatsmybush:
    I can only speak for my self, but if Fergie wanted to rub her lovely lady lumps on me, I could play the role of "human stripper pole."

  3. #3
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogger
    The imam's amp may go to eleven but I must say that church bells easily reach thirteen. The municipal carillon easily tops that and irritates the crap out of everyone every 15 minutes for 14 hours a day, with extra, unprovoked, recitals every wednesday. As far as I'm concerned they have as little place in western society today as the muezzin. No muezzin, no church bells, no carillon. And don't get me started on "Draaiorgels"
    I do see the acceptance of the use of Church bells, but the rejection of an amplified Muezzin as a kind of hypocritical opinion.

    But I would add:

    Church bells are not amplified.

    They have been historically used for communicating births, deaths, wars, invasions, other events etc.

    The sound of a bell is not in itself intrinsically one faith or another...it is just a sound. A call to Islamic prayer is quite different.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    I do see the acceptance of the use of Church bells, but the rejection of an amplified Muezzin as a kind of hypocritical opinion.

    But I would add:

    Church bells are not amplified.

    They have been historically used for communicating births, deaths, wars, invasions, other events etc.

    The sound of a bell is not in itself intrinsically one faith or another...it is just a sound. A call to Islamic prayer is quite different.
    Most church bells are electronic today and are amplified.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    Most church bells are electronic today and are amplified.
    Blows your hair back.

  6. #6
    Bickety bam!
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    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    Link

    Interesting article about a Mosque in the UK (in a multicultural area) where the Mosque's leaders are trying to get the call to prayer sent out over loudspeaker.

    Not of course that I believe that this (strictly) violates secular principles, but it does raise a couple of issues.

    It is an extremely overbearing and environment-saturating activity. I believe that in Cairo the Egyptian authorities may actually have banned 'calls for prayers' over an amplifier. With a mosque literally on every street corner in Cairo one can imagine that the din is appalling.

    When I lived in Saudi I had to endure this sound...but also accept it as a local given. I do not want to hear it in the UK. Engage in your religious practices outside of my personal space please.

    It does raise another interesting issue about Islam: it wants to see itself as both victim and dominator, a kind of doublethink. Intervening in Kosovo and protecting Muslims is ok, whilst doing away with an Islamic regime oppressing minorities (rolling boulders onto gays, Christians, adulterous women etc) such as the Taliban is not ok, and a sign of worldwide oppression against Muslims and an anti-Islam agenda. Bizarrely many on the left probably hold this view also.

    It also rubbishes notions (held by moderates also) that Islam is victimized and oppressed by a tacit agenda in the West. Is this the action of a religion in fear of persecution? Catholic priests escaped into priest-holes during the dark periods of Catholic persecution in the late middle-ages in Britain, they certainly did not build places of worship. The Jewish religion had to keep itself discrete and private to ensure survival through much of its persecution suffering history.
    They're not making you pray, and if you hear it, is it really going to change your day? Probably not. Or is this just more anti Islam talk?

  7. #7
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolialover
    They're not making you pray, and if you hear it, is it really going to change your day? Probably not. Or is this just more anti Islam talk?
    What do you mean 'if' you hear it? If one is in the vicinity one (assuming one is not deaf) cannot help but hear it. There is no choice.

    This is clearly taking religion beyond the private and moving it into the public...as a sound that one has no choice but to hear.

    /nice attempt to shut down debate by demonising me with an 'anti Islam' label.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    What do you mean 'if' you hear it? If one is in the vicinity one (assuming one is not deaf) cannot help but hear it. There is no choice.

    This is clearly taking religion beyond the private and moving it into the public...as a sound that one has no choice but to hear.
    I'm sorry, are we talking about church bells again?
    Blows your hair back.

  9. #9
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    I have to say that one thing I definitely don't miss since moving from a predominantly Catholic area to a predominantly Protestant area is the motherf*cking bells. They rang them damned things for everything. It annoyed the hell out of me to the point that I seriously considered taking matters into my own hands. So.... I totally am with not allowing some silly call to prayer or church bells or any other racket outside a tornado/air raid siren.


    supervillain

  10. #10
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    Again so?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    What do you mean 'if' you hear it? If one is in the vicinity one (assuming one is not deaf) cannot help but hear it. There is no choice.

    This is clearly taking religion beyond the private and moving it into the public...as a sound that one has no choice but to hear.

    /nice attempt to shut down debate by demonising me with an 'anti Islam' label.
    So what loss do you get from hearing a prayer being broadcast over the street that you probably don't understand anyway (unless you're more fluent in Arabic than most)? How does hearing said prayer affect you? If it is a mosque, chances are good it's probably in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood, and the local residents might welcome it, and again, how does it affect you? It doesn't. Not one bit. We have religion in public all the time. Nobody said religion needs to be private, and rarely is it ever private. Again, as others have said, what about church bells ringing on Sunday before and after services? Sort of the same thing isn't it? Except it's not done by those Muslims so it must be OK right?

    I don't have to demonize you as being anti Islamic, your words on this board have done that for you.

  11. #11
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    Not unless they allow my to blast "Foxy Lady" from my roof top. Bells should not be allowed unless they are marking the hour (and that's only "real" bells........and no frickin' bell music)
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY
    Not unless they allow my to blast "Foxy Lady" from my roof top. Bells should not be allowed unless they are marking the hour (and that's only "real" bells........and no frickin' bell music)
    Go ahead on, blast away. The noise in the lockup oughta drown our any of the sounds of religion that irritate you so.

  13. #13
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    You never lived in Bourges, France!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    I have to say that one thing I definitely don't miss since moving from a predominantly Catholic area to a predominantly Protestant area is the motherf*cking bells. They rang them damned things for everything. It annoyed the hell out of me to the point that I seriously considered taking matters into my own hands. So.... I totally am with not allowing some silly call to prayer or church bells or any other racket outside a tornado/air raid siren.
    I'll never forget awakening to the truly joyous sound of the big bells atop the cathedral. There's nothing like the dulcet tones of those majestic old ringers, pure, undistorted acoustical sound that has rung in the day for 400 years. I can see why you would be annoyed at these wimpy electonic bells. Any broadcast other than those wonderfully tuned bells is definitey noise pollution and should be outlawed for disturbing the peace.

  14. #14
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    If a Christian bell rings loud enough that I have no choice but to hear it, does it escape the label of noise pollution only because it isn't amplified? Of course not. Still noise pollution. Prayers over a loud speaker? Same. To be against one, I have to be against both.

    Either way, Christians shouldn't get a special break. They are among the loudest plagues on the earth, ever whining that everyone must praise their God in the way the Christians think is right. But wait, Christians can't even agree on what that is. How can we know what's right and wrong? My god, the confusion will send us all straight to hell.

    But, frankly, who really cares about this tripe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleyeangler
    If a Christian bell rings loud enough that I have no choice but to hear it, does it escape the label of noise pollution only because it isn't amplified? Of course not. Still noise pollution. Prayers over a loud speaker? Same. To be against one, I have to be against both.

    Either way, Christians shouldn't get a special break. They are among the loudest plagues on the earth, ever whining that everyone must praise their God in the way the Christians think is right. But wait, Christians can't even agree on what that is. How can we know what's right and wrong? My god, the confusion will send us all straight to hell.

    But, frankly, who really cares about this tripe?
    Have you tried putting your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALALALALAL?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    LALALALALALALALAL....

    ....Elmo's World!


    supervillain

  17. #17
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    Great Tom will drown out any call to prayer. Although it has been many years since I spent a summer term at Oxford, my recollection is that the Great Tom bell at Christ Church is loud, very loud. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tom_(bell)
    I try to be perfectly civil, until someone really pisses me off.

  18. #18
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    when a good friend of mine

    returned from a 2 year stay in the ME he brought me an alarm clock that looked like a mosque and the alarm was a call to prayer. He got it for me as a gag, but honestyly I thought the call was a rather lovely way to wake up.
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleyeangler
    If a Christian bell rings loud enough that I have no choice but to hear it, does it escape the label of noise pollution only because it isn't amplified? Of course not. Still noise pollution. Prayers over a loud speaker? Same. To be against one, I have to be against both.

    Either way, Christians shouldn't get a special break. They are among the loudest plagues on the earth, ever whining that everyone must praise their God in the way the Christians think is right. But wait, Christians can't even agree on what that is. How can we know what's right and wrong? My god, the confusion will send us all straight to hell.

    But, frankly, who really cares about this tripe?

    ok. how about the mosque? is it appropriate or not?
    if the point is defend the islamic religion rights... why attack another faith? should it be allowed cause the other is also wrong? both are right? both are wrong?
    what's the point? is the OP wrong and everything else is right?
    it needs more cow bell.

  20. #20
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    It's a new world. I suppose we have to get used to the new sounds.

    I grew up with church bells (the electronic, highly amplified kind), so they don't bother me. I never saw them as anything other than pleasant noise on the weekends. But this tread got me thinking- they really are just audio advertisements for the local church. And if I hadn't grown up with them, would they sound as strange as a mosque's call to prayer sounds to me now?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster
    I do see the acceptance of the use of Church bells, but the rejection of an amplified Muezzin as a kind of hypocritical opinion.

    But I would add:

    Church bells are not amplified.

    They have been historically used for communicating births, deaths, wars, invasions, other events etc.

    The sound of a bell is not in itself intrinsically one faith or another...it is just a sound. A call to Islamic prayer is quite different.
    Church bells don't need to be amplified as they are very loud themselves. You'd need some very serious wattage to amplify them further.
    Originally posted by thatsmybush:
    I can only speak for my self, but if Fergie wanted to rub her lovely lady lumps on me, I could play the role of "human stripper pole."

  22. #22
    the_rydster
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolialover
    So what loss do you get from hearing a prayer being broadcast over the street that you probably don't understand anyway (unless you're more fluent in Arabic than most)? How does hearing said prayer affect you? If it is a mosque, chances are good it's probably in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood, and the local residents might welcome it, and again, how does it affect you? It doesn't. Not one bit. We have religion in public all the time. Nobody said religion needs to be private, and rarely is it ever private. Again, as others have said, what about church bells ringing on Sunday before and after services? Sort of the same thing isn't it? Except it's not done by those Muslims so it must be OK right?

    I don't have to demonize you as being anti Islamic, your words on this board have done that for you.
    'Predominantly Muslim neighborhood'? Where did you pull that from? Why should it be? Are mosques only built in such areas? The answer is that the area in question is multi-ethnic and multi-faith...not that this is the issue.

    Ironically you raise a serious question...one also recently highlighted in the UK, that the permitting of amplified calls to prayer could drive out non-Muslims from these areas, and lead to further polarization of neighborhoods along religious (and by implication ethnic) lines.

    Whilst I do not thing that the above point is 100% correct, it does have some truth. An amplified call to prayer dominates the air for miles around, and really does change the atmosphere of an area...from neutral...to very much Islamic. Remember it is 5 times a day, every day. It is imposing to say the least from my experience.

    We already seeing in the UK this a kind of voluntary segregation along ethnic/religious lines. The situation on the estates and inner-cities, is a world away from liberal-left hubric multi-cultural fantasies, and further polarization can only harm democracy/secularism in the long run.

    Remember that multi-culturalism does not mean parallel societies. If we end up with the latter we are finished as an open society at some point.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogger
    Church bells don't need to be amplified as they are very loud themselves. You'd need some very serious wattage to amplify them further.
    AC DC bells are awesome. back in black!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_rydster

    Remember that multi-culturalism does not mean parallel societies. If we end up with the latter we are finished as an open society at some point.
    that's what i mean when i say a society made of ignore buttons is wrong.
    education as common ground is the answer. strict control over schools curriculum. write it in the constitution so that even voting on fundamentalists won't change it.

  25. #25
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    I couldn't care less about either, but if one is allowed, the other should be too. I made that pretty clear to most people, I'm sure.
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