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  1. #1
    n00bsauce
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    Should schools allow corporal punishment?

    People are clamoring for different topics and this is one I haven't seen tackled before. 20 states still allow it in schools http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/ed...=paddle&st=cse

    Personally, I see nothing good coming from paddling, or worse. We don't trust that teachers can adequately teach our children. Why would we trust them to strike them?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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  2. #2
    PIITWhat?
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    Nah. People should beat their own kids.

  3. #3
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    why fix what's not broken?

    how about worrying about why American government schools are among the shittiest in the world instead of whether or not little Billy gets what he has coming to him?
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  4. #4
    12 strings, no waiting
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    Any adult that strikes my kid is going to get their ass kicked by me. End of story.

  5. #5
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    Absolutely not.

    What schools need are rational solutions rather than locked down zero-tolerance nonsense laws that make it impossible to deal with infractions in a way that makes any kind of sense.

  6. #6
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    if the kids a problem, call the parents, make them leave work to come and pick them up.
    remove the problem. permanently if need be.

  7. #7
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    My thoughts on hitting kids.

    Looking back on the beatings (these weren't spankings, more typically being chased about the house and hit with a belt) I got as a kid I realize now it really had little to do with me and my brothers behavior beyond being a trigger for my dad to get out his frustrations with life (akin to kicking the family dog).

    We don't hit our kids and we don't need to, maybe we're just better parents than my parents were or we got lucky with our kids. It just doesn't seem necessary. We have no trouble getting our kids to do what we want them to do.

    Seeing as we got beat as kids until we were old enough that fighting back became an option, it didn't seem to make us behave as desired. In school, I can remember it being the same kids who got paddlings all the time, so again, what was the point?

    My brother spanks his kid (or at least did) which seemed quite odd, almost sadistic in a way, given that there was clearly some sort of tuned-out autistic/ADD type behavior going on, which my brother/sister-in-law seemed in denial of, with the kid.

    I understand more someone losing their temper and hitting a kid than a formal, listen to me or I will hit you type of deal.

  8. #8
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    Should schools allow corporal punishment - no
    Should children think that schools allow corporal punishment - yes
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  9. #9
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    No.

    First, if schools do not want kids to fight with each other, they should not be inflicting physical violence on students.

    Second, if a teacher cannot control a class without physical violence, he or she should not be in the classroom. I went to a very small elementary school and spent from kindergarten through eighth grade in a classroom with the same kids. We had but one teacher that regularly beat kids -- the teacher we had in third and fourth grades (she moved up with us after third grade). I do not recall our class being any worse behaved in the other grades when the same kids were taught by teachers who did not beat them.

    Third, not allowing teachers to beat kids is a bright line rule that is easily enforced. If a teacher is allowed to hit a kid, it will be hard to draw the line between reasonable force and excessive force. This is a risk both for kids, who may be less able to withstand force than some teacher expects, and teachers, who may not realize their own strength. This is a litigation minefield that no school district should even think about entering.
    Last edited by MarkS; 03-30-2011 at 04:56 PM.
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  10. #10
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69
    why fix what's not broken?

    how about worrying about why American government schools are among the shittiest in the world instead of whether or not little Billy gets what he has coming to him?
    Where do you get this stuff, Andy?

    [Re the OP: Absolutely not. No one beats my kids but me. And I don't beat my kids.]

  11. #11
    m_s
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    Nope. Big fat no. For all the reasons anyone can think of.

  12. #12
    n00bsauce
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS
    This is a litigation minefield that no school district should even think about entering.
    And yet, 20 states allow it and any number of schools practice it. If the law allows it how much of a litigation minefield would it be?
    Last edited by Mel Erickson; 03-31-2011 at 07:49 AM.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

    There are your fog people & your sun people, he said. I said I wasn't sure which kind I was. He nodded. Fog'll do that to you, he said.

    "We are all ignorant about most things."
    Mel Erickson

  13. #13
    n00bsauce
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69
    why fix what's not broken?

    how about worrying about why American government schools are among the shittiest in the world instead of whether or not little Billy gets what he has coming to him?
    So you're willing to allow a shitty teacher give your kid a wallop? You trust their judgement to give them the back of their hand, just not to teach them?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

    There are your fog people & your sun people, he said. I said I wasn't sure which kind I was. He nodded. Fog'll do that to you, he said.

    "We are all ignorant about most things."
    Mel Erickson

  14. #14
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    No. Absolutely not. It's not OK to beat children. Extra-judicial violence should never be acceptable. (I don't think that judicial violence ought to be either, but that's a different argument.) I mean, if we are going to beat children don't they at least deserve due process?

    Even if one was willing to consider beating children outside of ethical arguments, I feel like the pro-beating side has a pretty high bar to clear. I certainly haven't seen any convincing evidence that beating children produces better educational outcomes. This is the only reason I can see using to justify beating kids in schools. If you can't prove that, then I'm not sure what the case for allowing teachers to beat kids is even.

    Anyone have pro child beating evidence when it comes to educational outcomes?

  15. #15
    151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    My thoughts on hitting kids.

    Looking back on the beatings (these weren't spankings, more typically being chased about the house and hit with a belt) I got as a kid I realize now it really had little to do with me and my brothers behavior beyond being a trigger for my dad to get out his frustrations with life (akin to kicking the family dog).

    We don't hit our kids and we don't need to, maybe we're just better parents than my parents were or we got lucky with our kids. It just doesn't seem necessary. We have no trouble getting our kids to do what we want them to do.

    Seeing as we got beat as kids until we were old enough that fighting back became an option, it didn't seem to make us behave as desired. In school, I can remember it being the same kids who got paddlings all the time, so again, what was the point?

    My brother spanks his kid (or at least did) which seemed quite odd, almost sadistic in a way, given that there was clearly some sort of tuned-out autistic/ADD type behavior going on, which my brother/sister-in-law seemed in denial of, with the kid.

    I understand more someone losing their temper and hitting a kid than a formal, listen to me or I will hit you type of deal.
    What?
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander
    Nah. People should beat their own kids.
    Perhaps it's the parents that need a good caning.

  17. #17
    haole from the mainland
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    There should not be paddling in school. I'm with Dwayne that paddling is usually more about the paddler than the paddlee.

    I was paddled by my first grade teacher. Well, she decided to paddle me and then had the principal actually paddle me at the beginning of recess. I was paddled for lying even though I steadfastly maintained I was telling the truth. The 'lie' was stupidly trivial in nature.

    I knew what the teacher was doing was wrong, and I lost respect for her as a result. And I remember I made sure I didn't give her or the principal the satisfaction of me crying. I held it in until I met my friends on the playground.

  18. #18
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    I will say that while being taught by nuns and priests in the 60's and 70's I recieved my fair share of corporal punishment( much less thean the kids that "stuck out", my profile was low). One thing it taught me was the value of luck.

    Being in the wrong place at the wrong time had a lot more to do with why you were punished than anything else. Sometimes it seemed completely random. I have no belief it would be different today. I got punished when I hadn't been involved, I got punished at times when I was involved. When I did do punishable things, I got away with them most of the time. Is there any kind of lesson there, other than authority figures have no idea what they are doing?

    I was paddled, verbally humiliated, punched, shaken, pinched, slapped and once had to kneel on the floor aside my desk during one class for a week in the month of May for not bringing my rosary to class. I didn't consider this excess at the time, or anything worth telling my parents about. Others were treated worse.

  19. #19
    Misfit Toy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569
    Should schools allow corporal punishment - no
    Should children think that schools allow corporal punishment - yes
    This. I had a teacher in junior high that was a notorious (at least in the minds of 13 year olds) paddler. Other teachers used him as a threat "Behave or I'll have Mr Whitney come in here" When someone got in trouble in his class, they were instructed to meet Mr. W in the office after class for a paddling.

    We found out years later, after Mr W. was killed in a plane crash, that he'd take the offender into the teacher's office, buy them a Coke, then have a heart to heart talk. None of the offenders ever told the truth about Mr. W - he was a softy who truly cared about the kids he taught.
    It's all fun and games until someone ends up in a cone.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahueh
    if the kids a problem, call the parents, make them leave work to come and pick them up.
    remove the problem. permanently if need be.
    This is actually a very good idea.

    All though since as a society, since we've largely stopped hitting kids.. we sure ended up with a LOT of crappy kids. Im only 27 but Im pretty amazed at how bold kids are these days to authority. I remember respecting adults when I was a little kid, and adults then even commented on how bold we were. Children these days are just monsters.

    I dont think its fair to make any sort of direct connection between kids behavior these days and lack of hitting.. but something certainly changed. Maybe we should start spanking parents?

  21. #21
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    Corporal punishment teaches a valuable lesson that the child can use when he becomes larger than other people.

    On the other hand, if students were allowed their second amendment rights, there would be a lot less corporal punishment in schools.
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  22. #22
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Plus
    I will say that while being taught by nuns and priests in the 60's and 70's I recieved my fair share of corporal punishment( much less thean the kids that "stuck out", my profile was low). One thing it taught me was the value of luck.

    Being in the wrong place at the wrong time had a lot more to do with why you were punished than anything else. Sometimes it seemed completely random. I have no belief it would be different today. I got punished when I hadn't been involved, I got punished at times when I was involved. When I did do punishable things, I got away with them most of the time. Is there any kind of lesson there, other than authority figures have no idea what they are doing?

    I was paddled, verbally humiliated, punched, shaken, pinched, slapped and once had to kneel on the floor aside my desk during one class for a week in the month of May for not bringing my rosary to class. I didn't consider this excess at the time, or anything worth telling my parents about. Others were treated worse.

    This was similar to my experience in Catholic schools. My kids, who are products of public schools, are absolutely astonished, to the point of thinking I'm putting them on, when I tell them about "the good old school days," and what passed for sound instruction back then.
    .

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 151
    What?
    I mean it simply seems less wrong (not that I think anyone should be doing it), you know, crime of passion vs. cold, calculated crime

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomH
    This is actually a very good idea.

    All though since as a society, since we've largely stopped hitting kids.. we sure ended up with a LOT of crappy kids. Im only 27 but Im pretty amazed at how bold kids are these days to authority. I remember respecting adults when I was a little kid, and adults then even commented on how bold we were. Children these days are just monsters.

    I dont think its fair to make any sort of direct connection between kids behavior these days and lack of hitting.. but something certainly changed. Maybe we should start spanking parents?
    The correlation between hitting kids and at least crime, is just the opposite, whether it's causative or not who knows.

    The explosion is U.S. crime occurred in the 60's and 70's and since crime is overwhelmingly committed by young males, you're basically talking about kids raised from the 40's thru the 60's when corporeal punishment was the standard.

    Crime and especially violent crime has been dropping since ~1990, so kids raised from around 1975 onward when corporeal punishment began to go out of fashion.

    If you want kids to respect adults teach them to do so.

  25. #25
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    The correlation between hitting kids and at least crime, is just the opposite, whether it's causative or not who knows.

    The explosion is U.S. crime occurred in the 60's and 70's and since crime is overwhelmingly committed by young males, you're basically talking about kids raised from the 40's thru the 60's when corporeal punishment was the standard.

    Crime and especially violent crime has been dropping since ~1990, so kids raised from around 1975 onward when corporeal punishment began to go out of fashion.

    If you want kids to respect adults teach them to do so.
    I'm not a fan of corporal punishment, but the rise, and subsequent fall of violent crimes in America was due pretty much to demographic factors, as you note; I don't know if you can blame crime changes on corporal punishment. Young males tend to do most of those violent crimes, and we had a high proportion of young men in our society during the "dark times" of the 60's and 70's. The drop in violent crimes (which LEOs are happy to take credit for, incidentally) came as those young men aged, and became less violent.

    I think this pattern would've occurred regardless of corporal punishment. After all, the lower violent crime rates seen prior to the 60's were also during a time of corporal punishment.

    But I totally agree with your conclusion. It never seemed to make much sense to me, to teach kids by beating on them like rented mules.

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