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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    Why negotiate while they're trying to hold the country hostage? Pass a clean CR, pass a Debt Ceiling hike, then we can talk.
    While I don't agree with the current situation, do you really see the Dems making any concessions to the Republicans after those 2 issues are resolved?

  2. #27
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    Re: SHUTDOWN: Does Boehner have the votes?

    Quote Originally Posted by uclamatt2007 View Post
    While I don't agree with the current situation, do you really see the Dems making any concessions to the Republicans after those 2 issues are resolved?
    This is the kinda thinking that got us in this mess. Our democracy is NOT supposed to be about one party making concessions to another so that they can save face. It is about the people in power voting as their constituents want them too. When you are the minority in gov't you should expect to get a black eye and if you want to be the majority in gov't you alter your policies so that you get a majority. Right now the Republicans are divided inside their own party. Hell enough Republicans in the house are ready to vote with dems to give a clean budget..hence Boehner being an ass. Even if you wanted to give them concessions how many would be necessary to serve the insane swings within the party? to make matters worse it is clear the driving force behind the current head ache, the Tea Party, do not want "mere" concessions...to them it is a zero sum game so concessions would be meaningless anyway.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    This is the kinda thinking that got us in this mess. Our democracy is NOT supposed to be about one party making concessions to another so that they can save face. It is about the people in power voting as their constituents want them too. When you are the minority in gov't you should expect to get a black eye and if you want to be the majority in gov't you alter your policies so that you get a majority. Right now the Republicans are divided inside their own party. Hell enough Republicans in the house are ready to vote with dems to give a clean budget..hence Boehner being an ass. Even if you wanted to give them concessions how many would be necessary to serve the insane swings within the party? to make matters worse it is clear the driving force behind the current head ache, the Tea Party, do not want "mere" concessions...to them it is a zero sum game so concessions would be meaningless anyway.
    I wasn't saying that the Republicans should get concessions, I was just commenting on someone who implied that we could talk about it after they pass a clean bill and raised the debt ceiling. That idea is about as likely as Jacksonville winning the Superbowl this year.

    As for you comments, the minority in the country should never end up with a black eye. Our government was designed for a strong minority giving everyone a voice, not just the majority. While the course of the Republican party may be wrong, to say the minority needs to take it on the chin is not correct.

  4. #29
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    If the Reps expect the Dems to repeal the ACA, no they won't listen to that. If the Reps want to work on improving the ACA then I think the Dems will listen and work with them.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    If the Reps expect the Dems to repeal the ACA, no they won't listen to that. If the Reps want to work on improving the ACA then I think the Dems will listen and work with them.
    You are far more optimistic about our government's ability to work together than I am. For example, both the House and the Senate have voted to repeal the Medical Device Tax on seperate occasions, yet Reid has flatly refused the possibility of passing any spending bill that includes a repeal of the tax. Since their is obvious bipartisan support for such a repeal, the reason for such a refusal must be political, refusing the Republicans any "victory" in this issue. It is this sort of viewpoint, along with the current Republican course, that leaves no room for compromise.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by uclamatt2007 View Post
    You are far more optimistic about our government's ability to work together than I am. For example, both the House and the Senate have voted to repeal the Medical Device Tax on seperate occasions, yet Reid has flatly refused the possibility of passing any spending bill that includes a repeal of the tax. Since their is obvious bipartisan support for such a repeal, the reason for such a refusal must be political, refusing the Republicans any "victory" in this issue. It is this sort of viewpoint, along with the current Republican course, that leaves no room for compromise.
    This is a perfect opportunity for a leader to step in and broker a compromize between Reid and Boehner. Too bad instead of a Chief Executive we have a Chief Bystander.

  7. #32
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    Well, if the GOP stops holding the country hostage the President just might try to broker a compromise. However, every time he's tried to work with the GOP he finds they're willing to take and take but not give. If Obama is for it the GOP is against it, no matter what it is. It's been that way for the entire time of his presidency and I don't see it changing so maybe he can't be the broker, but that's because one side refuses to work with him.

  8. #33
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    Re: SHUTDOWN: Does Boehner have the votes?

    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    If the Reps expect the Dems to repeal the ACA, no they won't listen to that. If the Reps want to work on improving the ACA then I think the Dems will listen and work with them.
    There is no push to repeal. There is a push to delay its implementation. As Obama has done by executive order for some. But the dems will not sit and listen.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    There is no push to repeal. There is a push to delay its implementation. As Obama has done by executive order for some. But the dems will not sit and listen.
    Right- like when the one year is up the same clowns won't start the circus up again.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    Right- like when the one year is up the same clowns won't start the circus up again.
    Or maybe in a year the Clown at 1600 could fix some of it.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    He has not addressed the unfunded liability issue which is the reason that most other services in CA are being squeezed. Why do you suppose that manufacturing is and has been moving out of CA for the last 20 years. It's a terrible place to do business.
    Not too terrible, at least for some businesses. For last month, we were up just over 50% compared to September 2012. This is in an industry hit about as hard as possible in a tough economy.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    Well, if the GOP stops holding the country hostage the President just might try to broker a compromise. However, every time he's tried to work with the GOP he finds they're willing to take and take but not give. If Obama is for it the GOP is against it, no matter what it is. It's been that way for the entire time of his presidency and I don't see it changing so maybe he can't be the broker, but that's because one side refuses to work with him.
    You've been hitting the Kool Aid pretty hard.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    Or maybe in a year the Clown at 1600 could fix some of it.
    Or maybe the customers will either love it or hate it. Either way after a one year trial period we will know.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    Now before people rage non-sensically...I get that some people support this stuff. The problem is we do not have a direct democracy, we have a Republic. That means that votes should go to the floor. If the majority of the elected officials vote against...that is the Law...if they vote in favor...this too is the law. That is how our system is supposed to work. Boehner and his Party rule of "no vote go to the floor unless..." goes against the system that our fore-fathers put forward and perverts the democracy that they fought so hard to create.
    Such behavior can come from either party... personally, I think that political parties have way too much power and are vested in keeping it that way. Unfortunately, I'm sure that there are many who agree with me but won't call the GOP out for misbehavior since it turns into a "friend of my enemy" scenario. It's OK that the GOP abuses its power and undermines the spirit of democracy by not bring it to a vote... because freedom is on the line if that nasty Obamacare lives to see the light of day.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    Or maybe the customers will either love it or hate it. Either way after a one year trial period we will know.
    Right- like when the one year trial period is up the same clowns in Congress won't start the circus up again.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post
    do you guys complain when Harry Reid does not call things up for a vote ?
    As a matter of fact, I do.

    *especially if it's on an issue that he wasted three years trying to repeal.
    *especially if the vote has a direct effect on economy, financial well being, and credit rating.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by uclamatt2007 View Post
    While I don't agree with the current situation, do you really see the Dems making any concessions to the Republicans after those 2 issues are resolved?
    No... and if it wasn't for this mess, keeping the point you bring up in mind, I'd probably vote for a few (R)'s in the next election. However, due to the current mess being caused solely by the GOP, I can pretty much guarantee that all of my state and federal level votes will be for (I) or (D); I don't want to empower idiots willing to drag our credit rating through the mud in order to get their partisan way. I hate partisans, not political positions. I like conservatives, it's Republicans that annoy me. Screw parties (and those that defend them... I always say that I would love a conservative news station... Fox isn't conservative, it's the propaganda wing of the GOP).

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by headloss View Post
    As a matter of fact, I do.

    *especially if it's on an issue that he wasted three years trying to repeal.
    *especially if the vote has a direct effect on economy, financial well being, and credit rating.
    Did I miss your complaint about this?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/09/26/harry-reid-clarifies-calls-repealing-medical-device-tax-stupid/



    "Senator Reid supports the medical device tax, and his position is clear from his record: he voted for the medical device tax in the Affordable Care Act and against repealing it during the budget debate earlier this year. His position has not changed, and the Senate will reject any CR that includes a repeal of the medical device tax. If the House wants to avoid a Republican government shutdown, they should pass a clean CR. Period.

    Reid is at odds with a majority of the Senate on this issue, which voted 79 to 20 earlier this year in a largely symbolic vote to repeal the tax. Thirty-three Democrats and Sen. Angus King (I-Maine), who caucuses with Democrats, voted to end the tax.
    Would this be an acceptable stance?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    Right- like when the one year trial period is up the same clowns in Congress won't start the circus up again.
    But if the folks love ObamaCare (as promised) then the polls will clearly reflect that. What does the President have to lose ?? Let him really stand behind the program. Delay the individual mandate for a year just as he has for the employer mandate. He is a true believer in the program's ability to sell itself. Delaying the mandate won't affect the functionality of the program and if the program is really that great there won't be many who actually pay the penalty.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    There is no push to repeal. There is a push to delay its implementation. As Obama has done by executive order for some. But the dems will not sit and listen.
    There's a not-so-fine-line between delaying implementation due to some aspect not being ready for prime time, and delaying implementation because you believe it will buy you some time to repeal the legislation. Once ACA is fully in gear, the odds of ever repealing it go down significantly, the GOP isn't stupid and this is the one and only reason they want a delay.

  21. #46
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    Where is that thread located? Perhaps you can start one and we can debate the merits of a medical device tax? I apparently do need to keep a record of every post in which I criticize (D) leadership as some sort of validation?

    Quote Originally Posted by uclamatt2007 View Post
    You are far more optimistic about our government's ability to work together than I am. For example, both the House and the Senate have voted to repeal the Medical Device Tax on seperate occasions, yet Reid has flatly refused the possibility of passing any spending bill that includes a repeal of the tax. Since their is obvious bipartisan support for such a repeal, the reason for such a refusal must be political, refusing the Republicans any "victory" in this issue. It is this sort of viewpoint, along with the current Republican course, that leaves no room for compromise.
    I think that is a fair criticism of the system itself. I do agree with Badge that the reasons for not bringing it to a vote are different and that the two scenarios are not comparable... none the less, I hate seeing either house or either party delay reasonable positions that could result in compromise. I'm not sure if the medical device tax is the best example, but, I'm also certain that it would not take long to find a dozen examples where the Dems are the ones preventing a vote. The 500# gorilla in the room difference is that the GOP is not just refusing to put a clean bill to a vote, but they are also holding the economy/budget hostage; it's a more pressing vote in this specific case.
    Last edited by headloss; 10-07-2013 at 08:37 AM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    But if the folks love ObamaCare (as promised) then the polls will clearly reflect that. What does the President have to lose ?? Let him really stand behind the program. Delay the individual mandate for a year just as he has for the employer mandate. He is a true believer in the program's ability to sell itself. Delaying the mandate won't affect the functionality of the program and if the program is really that great there won't be many who actually pay the penalty.
    You've got it bass ackwards, as always. Let it go into effect now (rather than resuming this congressional clown show in September 2014), then if it sucks as bad as you're certain it will, you'll pick up a cloture-proof Senate majority. If it's a real disaster (and you know it will be) you'll have a GOP veto-proof majority in both chambers. Impeachment 2015, here we come!

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    You've got it bass ackwards, as always. Let it go into effect now (rather than resuming this congressional clown show in September 2014), then if it sucks as bad as you're certain it will, you'll pick up a cloture-proof Senate majority. If it's a real disaster (and you know it will be) you'll have a GOP veto-proof majority in both chambers. Impeachment 2015, here we come!
    Brilliant! Karl Rove, is that you?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will only drag you down to his level and beat you on experience." (Twain)

    "I used these numbers as an example to make a point." (AM999)

    "1/2 of you are wrong and the other .5 are incorrect!" (FlynG)

    "Taking crazy things seriously is a serious waste of time." (Murakami)

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by almccm View Post
    Hopefully we'll get one benefit from the Shutdown; the GOP attaining minority status in Both Houses.
    one can always dream...
    Not banned yet.

  25. #50
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    Zero hour approaches.

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