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  1. #1
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    Since it is Philosophy Friday...Zeno Paradoxes and Modern Politics...anyone...bueller

    Or maybe we could discuss...Fallibilist Foundationalism or Descartes' evil demon in relation to American politics...OR...OR....we could continue to drive this Rove thing by repeating everything that has been said in the last 4 days?


    But hell if you can't find something political in the Tortoise and Achilles paradox...you are JUST NOT TRYING!

    The Tortoise challenged Achilles to a race, claiming that he would win as long as Achilles gave him a small head start. Achilles laughed at this, for of course he was a mighty warrior and swift of foot, whereas the Tortoise was heavy and slow.
    “How big a head start do you need?” he asked the Tortoise with a smile.
    “Ten meters,” the latter replied.
    Achilles laughed louder than ever. “You will surely lose, my friend, in that case,” he told the Tortoise, “but let us race, if you wish it.”
    “On the contrary,” said the Tortoise, “I will win, and I can prove it to you by a simple argument.”
    “Go on then,” Achilles replied, with less confidence than he felt before. He knew he was the superior athlete, but he also knew the Tortoise had the sharper wits, and he had lost many a bewildering argument with him before this.
    “Suppose,” began the Tortoise, “that you give me a 10-meter head start. Would you say that you could cover that 10 meters between us very quickly?”
    “Very quickly,” Achilles affirmed.
    “And in that time, how far should I have gone, do you think?”
    “Perhaps a meter – no more,” said Achilles after a moment's thought.
    “Very well,” replied the Tortoise, “so now there is a meter between us. And you would catch up that distance very quickly?”
    “Very quickly indeed!”
    “And yet, in that time I shall have gone a little way farther, so that now you must catch that distance up, yes?”

    “Ye-es,” said Achilles slowly.
    “And while you are doing so, I shall have gone a little way farther, so that you must then catch up the new distance,” the Tortoise continued smoothly.
    Achilles said nothing.
    “And so you see, in each moment you must be catching up the distance between us, and yet I – at the same time – will be adding a new distance, however small, for you to catch up again.”
    “Indeed, it must be so,” said Achilles wearily.
    “And so you can never catch up,” the Tortoise concluded sympathetically.
    “You are right, as always,” said Achilles sadly – and conceded the race.


    /admittedly tired of talking about Karl Rove, trying to change the subject...
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    admittedly tired of talking about Karl Rove, trying to change the subject...
    How about the Govenator and his little magazine deal?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    How about the Govenator and his little magazine deal?
    @ least he lets the gov't take his $175k salary & use it to other means...

    How about...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4685855.stm
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room 1201
    @ least he lets the gov't take his $175k salary & use it to other means...

    How about...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4685855.stm
    HEY NOW...if neither one of you is willing to confront the tortoise paradox...GET OUT OF MY THREAD!!!
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  5. #5
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    I can find something political, but I think it's more important to point out that Achilles is pretty stupid if he believes he'll never catch up. Just because the Tortoise says it is so, doesn't make it so. But maybe that is the point you are looking for.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    HEY NOW...if neither one of you is willing to confront the tortoise paradox...GET OUT OF MY THREAD!!!
    Where's the paradox in your little allegory? If my man Aristotle was right-contradictions do not exist.

    -:in cognitive dissonance:
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  7. #7
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    warped thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    Or maybe we could discuss...Fallibilist Foundationalism or Descartes' evil demon in relation to American politics...OR...OR....we could continue to drive this Rove thing by repeating everything that has been said in the last 4 days?


    But hell if you can't find something political in the Tortoise and Achilles paradox...you are JUST NOT TRYING!

    The Tortoise challenged Achilles to a race, claiming that he would win as long as Achilles gave him a small head start. Achilles laughed at this, for of course he was a mighty warrior and swift of foot, whereas the Tortoise was heavy and slow.
    ?How big a head start do you need?? he asked the Tortoise with a smile.
    ?Ten meters,? the latter replied.
    Achilles laughed louder than ever. ?You will surely lose, my friend, in that case,? he told the Tortoise, ?but let us race, if you wish it.?
    ?On the contrary,? said the Tortoise, ?I will win, and I can prove it to you by a simple argument.?
    ?Go on then,? Achilles replied, with less confidence than he felt before. He knew he was the superior athlete, but he also knew the Tortoise had the sharper wits, and he had lost many a bewildering argument with him before this.
    ?Suppose,? began the Tortoise, ?that you give me a 10-meter head start. Would you say that you could cover that 10 meters between us very quickly??
    ?Very quickly,? Achilles affirmed.
    ?And in that time, how far should I have gone, do you think??
    ?Perhaps a meter ? no more,? said Achilles after a moment's thought.
    ?Very well,? replied the Tortoise, ?so now there is a meter between us. And you would catch up that distance very quickly??
    ?Very quickly indeed!?
    ?And yet, in that time I shall have gone a little way farther, so that now you must catch that distance up, yes??

    ?Ye-es,? said Achilles slowly.
    ?And while you are doing so, I shall have gone a little way farther, so that you must then catch up the new distance,? the Tortoise continued smoothly.
    Achilles said nothing.
    ?And so you see, in each moment you must be catching up the distance between us, and yet I ? at the same time ? will be adding a new distance, however small, for you to catch up again.?
    ?Indeed, it must be so,? said Achilles wearily.
    ?And so you can never catch up,? the Tortoise concluded sympathetically.
    ?You are right, as always,? said Achilles sadly ? and conceded the race.


    /admittedly tired of talking about Karl Rove, trying to change the subject...
    Most paradoxes are just word games, or the failure to look at something the right way. What if Achilles had retorted, if he wasn't such a dumbass, "at the end of 10 seconds racing, who will be ahead?" End of paradox. Same thing probably applies to politics, too. Lesson, never be limited by your opponent's thinking. Fight the battle on your own turf on your terms.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    Most paradoxes are just word games, or the failure to look at something the right way. What if Achilles had retorted, if he wasn't such a dumbass, "at the end of 10 seconds racing, who will be ahead?" End of paradox. Same thing probably applies to politics, too. Lesson, never be limited by your opponent's thinking. Fight the battle on your own turf on your terms.

    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding...we have a winner!

    of course knowing that you a philosophy background makes you a cheater, but...your political assertion was the same that I thought of when I was GOGGLING the quote up.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  9. #9
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    yup

    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding...we have a winner!

    of course knowing that you a philosophy background makes you a cheater, but...your political assertion was the same that I thought of when I was GOGGLING the quote up.
    Yes, I suppose it is cheating a bit, when I majored in philosophy and minored in English, and focused on the philosophy of language. Wrote several senior theses on philosophy of language, how language limits our thinking.

    Q. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

    A. "Without a question, there can be no answer."

    Combine that with 18 years of litigation experience, and I have confidence that in any dispute, you must define the terms, the battle ground, the issues, for yourself, and not be drawn into accepting the opponent's. Big problem for the Democrats lately. Of course, sometimes external causes define the political battleground, like terrorists. Hard for Democrats to harp on minimum wage when thousands of people are being murdered.

    I'm sure Ed gits it, as well as most here. It's fundamental to understanding politics, or any other competitive event, for that matter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    When my fist clenches, crack it open
    Before I use it and lose my cool
    When I smile, tell me some bad news
    Before I laugh and act like a fool

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    Yes, I suppose it is cheating a bit, when I majored in philosophy and minored in English, and focused on the philosophy of language. Wrote several senior theses on philosophy of language, how language limits our thinking.
    Fixed-was it humour/sense of high irony that drove you to write an SA on how semantics limit our thinking-or was it serious scholastic inquiry?
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  11. #11
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    paradoxes

    Here's another.

    What happens if you go back in time and kill your father before you were born?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    Here's another.

    What happens if you go back in time and kill your father before you were born?
    Sense I've never met someone who has that means that...

    a)it can't be done-in which case the paradox doesn't exist

    b)they did exist-until they killed their father-at which point leads back to a)

    c)I haven't met enough people

    d)If Star Trek is going to revive itself again-they need to come up with more plot tricks/

    e)WHERE'S MY CHEESBURGER
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  13. #13
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    huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Room 1201
    Fixed-was it humour/sense of high irony that drove you to write an SA on how semantics limit our thinking-or was it serious scholastic inquiry?
    It was serious. What do you mean by humor/irony though? Are you implying I'm a dumbass limited by my own understanding of language, and therefore incapable of reflexively writing about my own limited thinking?

    Not just semantics, but the entire way language works.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    When my fist clenches, crack it open
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  14. #14
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    no

    Quote Originally Posted by Room 1201
    Sense I've never met someone who has that means that...

    a)it can't be done-in which case the paradox doesn't exist

    b)they did exist-until they killed their father-at which point leads back to a)

    c)I haven't met enough people

    d)If Star Trek is going to revive itself again-they need to come up with more plot tricks/

    e)WHERE'S MY CHEESBURGER
    So, all you can conclude is that you have not killed your father in the past, before you were born.

    "It can't be done" means it IS a paradox.

    However, I think the point in there somewhere is maybe that there are other alternatives that we cannot comprehend, or at least are disclosed in the statement of the paradox.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    When my fist clenches, crack it open
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    When I smile, tell me some bad news
    Before I laugh and act like a fool

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    It was serious. What do you mean by humor/irony though? Are you implying I'm a dumbass limited by my own understanding of language, and therefore incapable of reflexively writing about my own limited thinking?

    Not just semantics, but the entire way language works.
    Was I intending to insult you? Definitely not. I was only surious as to your motivation @ the time.

    -am I amused by the notion of thinking and writing a paper on the limitations of language and as you say the reflexive sense of it all (regardledd of who pen'd said paper)? Yep
    Man. You are all stuped.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    So, all you can conclude is that you have not killed your father in the past, before you were born.

    "It can't be done" means it IS a paradox.

    However, I think the point in there somewhere is maybe that there are other alternatives that we cannot comprehend, or at least are disclosed in the statement of the paradox.
    True, but without more info-there's no way of drawing a conclusion methinks. Let's see what my ouji board says...

    d@mm causation ;)
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  17. #17
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    recognizing limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Room 1201
    Was I intending to insult you? Definitely not. I was only surious as to your motivation @ the time.

    -am I amused by the notion of thinking and writing a paper on the limitations of language and as you say the reflexive sense of it all (regardledd of who pen'd said paper)? Yep
    Seems that throughout history, those who made the greatest advances in thought necessarily had to invent some new lanuage to conceptualize and share the thought. Newton is a good example. When studying intensely, I think we tend to realize that we don't know squat, really, and one reason for this is our being limited by our tools of thought, words and how we put them together. We also learn that different cultures, as diverse as the Chinese and European cultures, think differently because their languages work completely differently. They have concepts that we don't, and vice versa.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    When my fist clenches, crack it open
    Before I use it and lose my cool
    When I smile, tell me some bad news
    Before I laugh and act like a fool

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    Seems that throughout history, those who made the greatest advances in thought necessarily had to invent some new lanuage to conceptualize and share the thought. Newton is a good example. When studying intensely, I think we tend to realize that we don't know squat, really, and one reason for this is our being limited by our tools of thought, words and how we put them together. We also learn that different cultures, as diverse as the Chinese and European cultures, think differently because their languages work completely differently. They have concepts that we don't, and vice versa.
    I still don't get how in Mandarin they don't have an actual word for 'yes' (IIRC), I'll try to get a straight answer out of a Taiwanese I'm good friends with later...

    The catch being with increasing the precision of language (I'll use your science example), Newton-->Einstein-->miscellaneous current physics theories...

    is that as you get more picky (about what are normally little things) about things (that matter more and more, and where tiny inaccuracies can lead to a invalid conclusion); the more the layman wonders 'what is his issue'-and loses interest. Perhaps that's why most persons nowdays don't conciously care about all the dead philosophers that are involved in most of their enviroment (@some level).
    Man. You are all stuped.
    ~RUFUSPHOTO

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    Here's another.

    What happens if you go back in time and kill your father before you were born?
    I believe Star Trek TNG answered this type of question pretty thoroughly in the episode where Enterprise "C" emerges through some type of temporal vortex, changing the entire history of the Federation and only Giunan is able to sense that something just ain't right.

    ;)

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