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  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    So what does energy independence really mean?

    We want to be energy independent.

    A worthy goal, right? Or is it?

    Canada is energy independent- they produce far more oil than they need and export most of it. So, Canada should have lower gas prices, right? And their gas prices should be more stable, less influenced by, say, a war in the middle east, right?

    Turns out, not right. Gas in Canada costs about the same as it does here, and when there's turmoil in the middle east, Canadian gas prices go up, just like ours.

    Oil is a commodity. The price of oil is the price of oil all around the world. So if the price of a barrel of oil is $100 in the US, it's $100 in Canada, China, India, etc. If the price of a barrel of oil goes up, it goes up every where.

    So, Canada is energy independent. But because their oil is sold on the free market, it's subject to all the conditions of that market. So prices go up, prices go down depending on whatever affects prices today.

    So what, exactly, is the point of energy independence?

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/...ne-any-cheaper
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  2. #2
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    our highest export in america is gasoline.

    the only way the federal reserve fiat note still is in use. is because oil can only be traded in fiat federal reserve notes.

    big oil will never allow you to be independent of their mighty grip .

    the puppet masters can't afford you to wake up and understand the scam.

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

  3. #3
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    We are corn, dairy and wheat independent, but that doesn't keep those prices from fluctuating, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  4. #4
    tlg
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    We don't need to be energy independent. We need to be independent from big oil.

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  6. #6
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    Now that we all agree that "energy independence" is just another political buzzword used to misdirect and lead the sheep, can we start in on a few of the others as well?
    * posted by Creakybot 2013 all rights reserved.
    * not actually waterproof.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Now that we all agree that "energy independence" is just another political buzzword used to misdirect and lead the sheep, can we start in on a few of the others as well?
    So, write 'em up mustache man...

    What's your favorite?

    One of my current favorites is calling the expiration of a tax cut a tax hike. That's like calling the end of daylight savings a darkness hike- in reality it's just allowing things to return to normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  8. #8
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    BTW, in Canada gas is more expensive than in the US. We simply get screwed by big oil price fixing. Miraculously prices at all stations are basically the same and change the same as the futures fluctuate. And the government does nothing because they take in big tax dollars.

    But the point made by the OP regarding gasoline independence is quite right. Which leads me to the next stupidity - that the President can do anything about oil prices (other than affect them in tiny and very temporary way by using the reserves).

    How many time have we heard some "genius" talk about gas prices going up on Obama's watch and blaming Obama for it. The Republicans used that again and again.
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  10. #10
    haole from the mainland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    So what, exactly, is the point of energy independence?
    In theory, we wouldn't have to be involved in wars for oil anymore. My feeling--and this is all hand waving--is eff it and get out of the Middle East and buy their cheap oil and use our own sparingly.

  11. #11
    Dr. Buzz Killington
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    If you ask anyone in the oil industry, the amount we can drill has little discernible effects on the price of gasoline. It's predominantly determined by speculation, which is the progeny of self-centered lobbyists. We will never achieve true energy independence if those entities are allowed to promulgate their filth.

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    http://www.seedsofdeception.com/

    Russia Bans GMO Corn Over Cancer Fears as Pressure Builds on Monsanto

    but bill gates and george soros want you to eat it.
    and these puppet masters will feed you their poison at your tax dollar expense

    hear in this link below from the 4 minute to 11 minute mark
    the good ol boy network is in bed with corrupt mon$anto.

    fast forward to the 41 minutes mark,,,to hear the ark of the covenant section.


    The Ark of the Covenant 11-28-2012 - YouTube
    Last edited by loona; 11-29-2012 at 11:05 PM.

  13. #13
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    in order to keep gasoline prices rising higher and higher 7.00 a gallon
    big oil has to export massive gas reserve .
    that way they make it look as though demand can be higher than supply .

    and the puppet masters can maintain control over the peasant slaves

    http://www.commodityonline.com/news/...7-3-38748.html

  14. #14
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    I thought this was an interesting article.
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../NK29Dj01.html

  15. #15
    gazing from the shadows
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgy View Post
    In theory, we wouldn't have to be involved in wars for oil anymore.
    Exactly. Add in propping up regimes to keep the lid on, and various other non-shooting war things we need to do for the national interest as well.

    The biggest thing about ANY kind of independence is not that you get to live more cheaply, rather you get to tell people to go screw themselves when they become troublesome.
    .
    Stout beers under trees, please.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage View Post
    One of my current favorites is calling the expiration of a tax cut a tax hike. That's like calling the end of daylight savings a darkness hike- in reality it's just allowing things to return to normal.
    You may be shocked, shocked to learn that I disagree. Both cases are simply a change to the law. Taxes either go up or down.

    And please don't dig up "it was meant to be temporary".

    In fact, that's another piece of doublespeak we should banish... nobody really believes that tripe from the politicos; we all know it's just a cover for "we don't have the balls to shove this down the publics' throat so we'll sugar coat it with a pretty story about being "temporary."
    * posted by Creakybot 2013 all rights reserved.
    * not actually waterproof.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    In fact, that's another piece of doublespeak we should banish... nobody really believes that tripe from the politicos; we all know it's just a cover for "we don't have the balls to shove this down the publics' throat so we'll sugar coat it with a pretty story about being "temporary."
    If no one believes it, why do they keep saying it? That would be because people believe it.

    And those tax cuts were meant to be temporary. And that's causing a major problem. And saying "No one believes they were really going to be temporary" is a pretty convenient way to let foolish, stupid politicians off the hook.

    "We've decided that these temporary tax cuts enacted by us and signed into law by our guy should really be permanent. And besides, no one really believed they'd be temporary. But now you are the president so all the problems associated with this tax cut are your fault, not ours, not our guy's fault. " Right.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTooBig View Post
    Your Logical-to-Dumbass ratio is way out of kilter, buddy

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by loona View Post
    our highest export in america is gasoline.

    the only way the federal reserve fiat note still is in use. is because oil can only be traded in fiat federal reserve notes.

    big oil will never allow you to be independent of their mighty grip .

    the puppet masters can't afford you to wake up and understand the scam.

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
    its funny to me that conservatives only like the free market when it benefits you...and don't see to much support alternatives to oil consumption as a whole...
    Not banned yet.

  19. #19
    n00bsauce
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgy View Post
    In theory, we wouldn't have to be involved in wars for oil anymore. My feeling--and this is all hand waving--is eff it and get out of the Middle East and buy their cheap oil and use our own sparingly.
    To begin with it's not "our" oil. The oil belongs to the companies that pump it out of the ground and then to who they sell it to on down the line until you buy whatever refined product you need. Then it's "your" oil but still not "our" oil. Unless we nationalize the oil industry it will never be "our" oil and therefore we will always have the need to start wars for oil. Interestingly, when we start wars for oil we get to pay for the war (or put it on the credit card) but still don't get the oil. It still belongs to the company that pumps it. Isn't it nice how that works?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

    There are your fog people & your sun people, he said. I said I wasn't sure which kind I was. He nodded. Fog'll do that to you, he said.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    You may be shocked, shocked to learn that I disagree. ... Taxes either go up or down.
    Creaky is correct.
    Anything that doesn't take years of your life and drive you to suicide hardly seems worth doing. ---- Cormac McCarthy

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgy View Post
    In theory, we wouldn't have to be involved in wars for oil anymore. My feeling--and this is all hand waving--is eff it and get out of the Middle East and buy their cheap oil and use our own sparingly.
    What's all this "wars for oil" business?

    Anything that doesn't take years of your life and drive you to suicide hardly seems worth doing. ---- Cormac McCarthy

    A man can get disouraged many times, but he is not a failure until he begins to blame somebody else and stops trying --- John Burroughs

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by loona View Post
    in order to keep gasoline prices rising higher and higher 7.00 a gallon big oil has to export massive gas reserve .
    Wrong. They export gasoline because people in other countries want it more than people in the US do, so they pay higher prices.

    Sell to the highest bidder. It's a really simple concept once you take off your tin foil hat.
    Anything that doesn't take years of your life and drive you to suicide hardly seems worth doing. ---- Cormac McCarthy

    A man can get disouraged many times, but he is not a failure until he begins to blame somebody else and stops trying --- John Burroughs

  23. #23
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    The US has the resources to be energy independent. As has been pointed out this does not mean that we would control the price which is set by the world markets but we would have the ability to provide all of our domestic needs without having to rely on areas of the world which can be unstable.

    In Nov of 2010 the Congressional Research Service Report (CRS) of 2009 was updated to show that the US combined recoverable natural gas, oil, and coal endowment is the largest on earth and indeed much larger than the combined reserves of Saudi Arabia, China, and Canada combined. Here’s a summary:

    Oil - ~160 Billion barrels which is equivalent to 50 years of current US production plus replacement of Persian Gulf imports.

    Natural Gas - ~ 2000 Trillion cubic feet which is equivalent to US consumption for the next 90 years.

    Coal - ~ ~ 260 Billion short tons which is equivalent to ~ 200 years at current consumption rate of 1.2 Billion short tons per year.

    Oil Shale - ~ 1.4 Trillion Barrels of recoverable oil which is ~ 10 X our current oil reserves.

    Methane Hydrates (natural gas locked up in ice) - ~ not yet commercially feasible but estimates of 300,000 TCF of gas. If 3% can be recovered this would be equivalent to ~ 400 years of current natural gas production.


    This energy reserves are more than enough to get us through the next ~ 100 years when space based solar collection and transmission to earth is estimated to be operational.









    .: U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works :: Minority Page :.

  24. #24
    n00bsauce
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    The US has the resources to be energy independent. As has been pointed out this does not mean that we would control the price which is set by the world markets but we would have the ability to provide all of our domestic needs without having to rely on areas of the world which can be unstable.
    How would we be able to provide all our domestic needs without relying on areas of the world that are unstable in a free market system? We would have to be able to control the supply to make sure it was only available to the US. How is this possible in a free market system? I think the only way would be to nationalize our energy supplies and production. Are you advocating nationalization?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

    There are your fog people & your sun people, he said. I said I wasn't sure which kind I was. He nodded. Fog'll do that to you, he said.

    "We are all ignorant about most things."
    Mel Erickson

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Erickson View Post
    How would we be able to provide all our domestic needs without relying on areas of the world that are unstable in a free market system? We would have to be able to control the supply to make sure it was only available to the US. How is this possible in a free market system? I think the only way would be to nationalize our energy supplies and production. Are you advocating nationalization?
    We produce more than we need and export the rest. We aren't obligated to sell to everyone.

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