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  1. #1
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    Terrorism. War and peace. Obama's speech.

    Isn't this great! Obama is having pangs of conscience on his drone strikes, wants to send Yemenis back home and close Gitmo, and redefine US strategy on fighting terrorist groups like AQ, ending the "war on terrorism" conflated after 9/11.

    About time.

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    Huh????
    I detect a bit of sarcasm there....

  3. #3
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    Not at all. The problem Obama stated is a nation in a permanent state of war can't maintain a free society, nor a satisfactory relationship with the rest of the world. Muslim terrorists have not been defeated. Their ranks have increased directly in proportion to our efforts to kill them. There will be no peace, no end on a "war" with no limits, against an enemy impossible to identify, until we change the status quo.

    Obama has pulled back the drone strikes, it becoming clear Pakistanis are outraged. He's helped the Yemenis handle their insurgents in a kind of partnership with our forces trying to defeat AQ.

    Once the US military is out of Afghanistan the war on terrorism must be declared over. We must declare peace with the Muslim world.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 05-23-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Obama has pulled back the drone strikes, it becoming clear Pakistanis are outraged. He's helped the Yemenis handle their insurgents in a kind of partnership with our forces trying to defeat AQ.
    All this means is the current target list is dwindling. We need to give terrorism a little time to fester, breed, and resurge. Just as the original Gulf War victory and our deterrent bases in Saudi Arabia later resurfaced in the 9-11 attack, the 12-year war on AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan will come back to bite us later. These lulls in the action are merely planning and rebuilding phases.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    All this means is the current target list is dwindling. We need to give terrorism a little time to fester, breed, and resurge. Just as the original Gulf War victory and our deterrent bases in Saudi Arabia later resurfaced in the 9-11 attack, the 12-year war on AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan will come back to bite us later. These lulls in the action are merely planning and rebuilding phases.
    No doubt true, as each of these drone strikes exponentially radicalizes survivors for every death. The new strategy appears to be getting the Pakistanis and Yemenis to go after the insurgents. So far, not so good in Pakistan, as the police purposely look the other way.

    The hope is, as AQ types keep getting kicked off, it will sap the fervor of the new ones coming up, realizing a certain futility of their endeavors. This has happened with extremist political groups in the past. They alienate popular support, become isolated, and die off. It takes a generation or two and improvement of social conditions though. Meanwhile the US needs to refrain from starting any new wars so as not to rile up the next generation of alienated Muslim youth, vowing to give up their lives for jihad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Once the US military is out of Afghanistan the war on terrorism must be declared over. We must declare peace with the Muslim world.
    It takes more than one party to end the war if it is not won. US can declare whatever it wants, it does not mean the other side will accept.

  7. #7
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    Obama never said that he was going to stop drone strikes in Pakistan, just be more careful.
    .
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    U.S. Drone Strike Is Said to Kill a Taliban Leader
    WASHINGTON — Less than a week after President Obama outlined a new direction for the secret drone wars, Pakistani officials said that a C.I.A. missile strike on Wednesday killed a top member of the Pakistani Taliban, an attack that illustrated the continued murkiness of the rules that govern the United States’ targeted killing operations.

    The drone strike in Pakistan’s tribal belt, along the Afghan border, was the first since Mr. Obama announced what his administration billed as sweeping changes to the drone program, with new limits on who would be targeted and more transparency in reporting such strikes.

    But in the days since the president’s speech, American officials have asserted behind the scenes that the new standards would not apply to the C.I.A. drone program in Pakistan as long as American troops remained next door in Afghanistan — a reference to Mr. Obama’s exception for an “Afghan war theater.” For months to come, any drone strikes in Pakistan — the country that has been hit by the vast majority of them, with more than 350 such attacks by some estimates — will be exempt from the new rules.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/wo...anted=all&_r=0
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    Not necessarily. With unconditional surrender and massive American suicides of our infidels, it is possible they will love us (at least the dead ones).

    There could be a small residual problem in that the various Muslim sects also like to kill one another so there is that issue. On the other hand, that could be solved by simply deciding which sect worships the "One True God" and serving JonesTown's special blend of cool aid to everyone else

    Quote Originally Posted by poff View Post
    It takes more than one party to end the war if it is not won. US can declare whatever it wants, it does not mean the other side will accept.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    massive American suicides of our infidels, it is possible they will love us (at least the dead ones).
    Flashing back to Jonestown?

  10. #10
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    The continuing existence of GITMO alone pretty much guarantees several more generations of terrorism against America and the West.

    I've never had an issue with the use of "drones" to take out validated targets; anything that reduces the risks to American military members is a good thing in my book.

    It is interesting for a US President to actually put a lessening of executive powers on the discussion table though...maybe unprecedented?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    All this means is the current target list is dwindling. We need to give terrorism a little time to fester, breed, and resurge. Just as the original Gulf War victory and our deterrent bases in Saudi Arabia later resurfaced in the 9-11 attack, the 12-year war on AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan will come back to bite us later. These lulls in the action are merely planning and rebuilding phases.
    What they need is a safe place to regroup, rearm and retrain and denial of that haven is the whole point of the drone strikes. Pakistan has provided it since the Russians invaded Afghanistan, it's a family tradition.

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    Incarceration of folks who simply want to kill infidels "pretty much guarantees several more generations of terrorism against America and the West".

    Not convinced that Gitmo has much to do with it (other than in the minds of wishful thinkers).

    It is very easy to claim to want to close Gitmo but a bit harder to come up with a suitable alternative. Consider that when housing and prosecuting them in cities in the US becomes the fashion of the day, terrorists lunatics will likely find acts against those cities and jurors popular. Being selected for jury duty may become undesirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwl325 View Post
    The continuing existence of GITMO alone pretty much guarantees several more generations of terrorism against America and the West.

    I've never had an issue with the use of "drones" to take out validated targets; anything that reduces the risks to American military members is a good thing in my book.

    It is interesting for a US President to actually put a lessening of executive powers on the discussion table though...maybe unprecedented?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    What they need is a safe place to regroup, rearm and retrain and denial of that haven is the whole point of the drone strikes. Pakistan has provided it since the Russians invaded Afghanistan, it's a family tradition.
    Yep, Pakistan, Yemen, parts of North Africa would be on the list. A good book to read about inside workings of AQ is "The Black Banners" by Ali Soufan. He was an FBI interrogator who worked the first World Trade Center bombing (1993), Khobar Towers bombing (Saudi Arabia, 1996) US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania bombings (1998), USS Cole bombing (Yemen, 2000). It's a very good examination of the organization (though heavily redacted by CIA trying to cover there asses).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Incarceration of folks who simply want to kill infidels "pretty much guarantees several more generations of terrorism against America and the West".

    Not convinced that Gitmo has much to do with it (other than in the minds of wishful thinkers).

    It is very easy to claim to want to close Gitmo but a bit harder to come up with a suitable alternative. Consider that when housing and prosecuting them in cities in the US becomes the fashion of the day, terrorists lunatics will likely find acts against those cities and jurors popular. Being selected for jury duty may become undesirable.

    This place is available. It's not on the market now, but word is, the owners are looking to sell. Convenient bayside location with plenty of marina parking, just a short swim from major city attractions, with lovely harbor views. A fixer-upper for the right owner; there has been a bit of deferred maintenance, but with a little paint, some curtains, and a few throw pillows, it could be quite the charmer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    Incarceration of folks who simply want to kill infidels "pretty much guarantees several more generations of terrorism against America and the West".

    Not convinced that Gitmo has much to do with it (other than in the minds of wishful thinkers).

    It is very easy to claim to want to close Gitmo but a bit harder to come up with a suitable alternative. Consider that when housing and prosecuting them in cities in the US becomes the fashion of the day, terrorists lunatics will likely find acts against those cities and jurors popular. Being selected for jury duty may become undesirable.
    Wishful thinking doesn't often come into play with reality. GITMO is a convenience for Americans not wanting to deal with the decisions that established it and the people that are in it. Unfortunately for America and the West, it's one of the strongest underscores to every AQ-recruiting pitch around the world--and as we've seen, the pitch appears to be working fairly well; right up there with "Be all you can be".

    You're absolutely right, closing GITMO *is* a nightmare, both politically and logistically. It's why it was such an asinine thing to create to begin with--something akin to launching a ground war in Afghanistan.
    Bill

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwl325 View Post
    It is interesting for a US President to actually put a lessening of executive powers on the discussion table though...maybe unprecedented?
    Also probably far from genuine.

    "I'll let state law prevail in medical marijuana states"
    "I'll be the most transparent administration ever!"

    The administration can say whatever it wants. What it does is an entirely different story.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Isn't this great! Obama is having pangs of conscience on his drone strikes, wants to send Yemenis back home and close Gitmo, and redefine US strategy on fighting terrorist groups like AQ, ending the "war on terrorism" conflated after 9/11.

    About time.

    there seems to be a glitch with the forum software.... it appears Fredrico's post from 2008 has only just now displayed....
    * posted by Creakybot 2013 all rights reserved.
    * not actually waterproof.

  18. #18
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    While I've admittedly not been to my local AQ recruiting center, I suspect that recruitment actually begins at about age 6 and that hatred of infidels may be more related to indoctrination than Gitmo.

    Also, Do remember that Gitmo has been around for a very long time.

    Finally, enemy combatants are rarely tried in civil courts. Reality makes that both impractical (due to numbers) and unwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwl325 View Post
    Wishful thinking doesn't often come into play with reality. GITMO is a convenience for Americans not wanting to deal with the decisions that established it and the people that are in it. Unfortunately for America and the West, it's one of the strongest underscores to every AQ-recruiting pitch around the world--and as we've seen, the pitch appears to be working fairly well; right up there with "Be all you can be".

    You're absolutely right, closing GITMO *is* a nightmare, both politically and logistically. It's why it was such an asinine thing to create to begin with--something akin to launching a ground war in Afghanistan.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo View Post
    While I've admittedly not been to my local AQ recruiting center, I suspect that recruitment actually begins at about age 6 and that hatred of infidels may be more related to indoctrination than Gitmo.

    Also, Do remember that Gitmo has been around for a very long time.

    Finally, enemy combatants are rarely tried in civil courts. Reality makes that both impractical (due to numbers) and unwise.
    Islam is a peaceful religion, they would never indoctrinate their children with hate messages. There were no terrorists at all till Gitmo.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Islam is a peaceful religion, they would never indoctrinate their children with hate messages. There were no terrorists at all till Gitmo.
    Blah blah blah, it's not like small (or large) subsets of christians have ever committed violence in the name of their own imagining of God, or Catholics, or Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Taoists, or Satanists, or any religion in the history of man, ever.

    In light of this, let's single out muslims based on small sample size and use meaningless, self serving, and politically driven analyses of a religion we apparently do not understand to characterize a all of islam's followers as vitriolic violence mongers.

    Yeah, that's productive.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    Blah blah blah, it's not like small (or large) subsets of christians have ever committed violence in the name of their own imagining of God, or Catholics, or Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Taoists, or Satanists, or any religion in the history of man, ever.

    In light of this, let's single out muslims based on small sample size and use meaningless, self serving, and politically driven analyses of a religion we apparently do not understand to characterize a all of islam's followers as vitriolic violence mongers.

    Yeah, that's productive.
    You think all this mess is due to a small subset?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    You think all this mess is due to a small subset?
    How many "Terrorists" do you think there are in the world?

    Divide that number by 2.2 billion. Tell me what fractional percentage you get. So, maybe a microfraction of the world's 2.2B muslims are terrorists. But how many rank and file muslims support the violence?

    Consider then the number of christians who supported the crusades, the number of french catholics who supported the slaughter of thousands of Huguenots, Israel's state sponsored terrorism before and after the establishment of the israeli state, or any number of violent clashes waged in the name of some diety somewhere because of something...

    And I find it hard to imagine that Islam is extraordinarily violent, or somehow special in this regard.

    And it's the lowest hanging fruit that people immediately point to religion as the primary driver of violence, when really, it's just ground cover for the real socio-politico-economic drivers of unrest. In short, it's easy to write off the writhing masses of poor brown people a world away as violent religionists because they are "Other." Within this dichotomous model, we assess any and all shortcomings to our diametric opposite because they are not us: they are brown. they pray to version 1.2 of our God. they speak a different language. they've languished in poverty for generations (in no small part because of our interventionist foreign policies). They are nothing like us. It's easy then to formulate overly simplistic understandings of their world, and use that simplistic understanding to explain complex issues as simply a product of their innate inferiority.

    It bears mentioning that I'm borrowing from Said at this point, and this quote from Said in 1980 is particularly relevant:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Said
    So far as the United States seems to be concerned, it is only a slight overstatement to say that Muslims and Arabs are essentially seen as either oil suppliers or potential terrorists. Very little of the detail, the human density, the passion of Arab–Moslem life has entered the awareness of even those people whose profession it is to report the Arab world. What we have, instead, is a series of crude, essentialized caricatures of the Islamic world, presented in such a way as to make that world vulnerable to military aggression.
    Last edited by charlox5; 05-30-2013 at 03:37 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    How many "Terrorists" do you think there are in the world?

    Divide that number by 2.2 billion. Tell me what fractional percentage you get. So, maybe a microfraction of the world's 2.2B muslims are terrorists. But how many rank and file muslims support the violence?

    Consider then the number of christians who supported the crusades, the number of french catholics who supported the slaughter of thousands of Huguenots, Israel's state sponsored terrorism before and after the establishment of the israeli state, or any number of violent clashes waged in the name of some diety somewhere because of something...

    And I find it hard to imagine that Islam is extraordinarily violent, or somehow special in this regard.

    And it's the lowest hanging fruit that people immediately point to religion as the primary driver of violence, when really, it's just ground cover for the real socio-politico-economic drivers of unrest. In short, it's easy to write off the writhing masses of poor brown people a world away as violent religionists because they are "Other." Within this dichotomous model, we assess any and all shortcomings to our diametric opposite because they are not us: they are brown. they pray to version 1.2 of our God. they speak a different language. they've languished in poverty for generations (in no small part because of our interventionist foreign policies). They are nothing like us. When really, the west has a long and storied history of violence, either primarily motivated by religious dogma, or perpetrated under the cover of religious dogma.

    It bears mentioning that I'm borrowing from Said at this point, and this quote from Said in 1980 is particularly relevant:
    How many American soldiers are there in the world? There would be no American military without public support fir them and our government policies and same goes with the ideology that drives the terrorists.

    The reason the riches of the ME are so narrowly distributed is the fault of their own governments, not the customers for their petroleum products. That is where the blame for the poor brown people you are so taken with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    How many American soldiers are there in the world? There would be no American military without public support fir them and our government policies and same goes with the ideology that drives the terrorists.

    The reason the riches of the ME are so narrowly distributed is the fault of their own governments, not the customers for their petroleum products. That is where the blame for the poor brown people you are so taken with.
    How many puppet regimes have we set up to keep the oil flowing? Do I have to remind you of the ultimate implications of the CIA's overthrow of Iran's democratically elected, secular government?

    The so-called "Ideology" found in Islam is no more violent than that found in Judges, Ecclesiastes, Deuteronomy, or even parts of the New Testament. After all, supposedly Christian nations and churches have been clutching the Bible in one hand, and their sword in the other, showering in the blood of unbelievers for centuries now--either because of actual belief in mythology, or greed, hatred, or other.

    Your comparison of the armed forces of a nation state and its citizenry to terrorists and the Islamosphere are telling--at what point did a middle class muslim in Pakistan, New Jersey, or Eastern Europe elect OBL, Zarqawi, or anyone from AQ to represent their military interests? How is AQ responsive to the will of Muslims all over the world? What is the chain of command/where does the political accountability lie when talking about the decision making of an extra-national paramilitary group? Can a Muslim in Detroit vote AQ or Taliban leadership out of power in 2016? It's a flawed comparison, one that plays directly into the quote I just posted: we do not understand the muslim world, either from a macro, or micro perspective. We are only just beginning to realize the multi-faceted nature of not just the religion, but the cultures that have spawned from its influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    How many puppet regimes have we set up to keep the oil flowing? Do I have to remind you of the ultimate implications of the CIA's overthrow of Iran's democratically elected, secular government?

    The so-called "Ideology" found in Islam is no more violent than that found in Judges, Ecclesiastes, Deuteronomy, or even parts of the New Testament. After all, supposedly Christian nations and churches have been clutching the Bible in one hand, and their sword in the other, showering in the blood of unbelievers for centuries now--either because of actual belief in mythology, or greed, hatred, or other.

    Your comparison of the armed forces of a nation state and its citizenry to terrorists and the Islamosphere are telling--at what point did a middle class muslim in Pakistan, New Jersey, or Eastern Europe elect OBL, Zarqawi, or anyone from AQ to represent their military interests? How is AQ responsive to the will of Muslims all over the world? What is the chain of command/where does the political accountability lie when talking about the decision making of an extra-national paramilitary group? Can a Muslim in Detroit vote AQ or Taliban leadership out of power in 2016? It's a flawed comparison, one that plays directly into the quote I just posted: we do not understand the muslim world, either from a macro, or micro perspective. We are only just beginning to realize the multi-faceted nature of not just the religion, but the cultures that have spawned from its influence.
    Well, you're working your way back from the Crusades through Iran so I guess you will be back in the real world soon enough.

    We aren't talking about why they are so pissed at us (Gitmo, I hear) we're bickering about quantity. I think there are more than a few active Islamists. Now I'm sure they don't all do the Christian equivalent of dancing with snakes but then, neither do all Christians. Those militant groups exist because they are supported by the populations in those regions.

    On your way back from the Holy Land, come back through the American 60's. We had our jihadist groups but they did not survive because they were outsiders, not supported by the people they were saving. Of course, we gave them better jobs in our education system so it all ended well. Maybe that's all AQ wants, tenure.

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