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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by pone View Post
    maybe it's just me, but it seems all too frequently the case that the most ardent of hardliners are more likely to embrace a double-standard. although, i guess it makes a certain kind of sense.
    Hardliners fits people on both sides of this difference of views and concerns. The demand for proof that the methods works is a blind alley. If it was successful it is likely that publicity on those successes could compromise operatives and other informants involved. Tracing the history back to the source is a common enough practice. Yup don't brag about Covert success and bare your soul.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Hardliners fits people on both sides of this difference of views and concerns. The demand for proof that the methods works is a blind alley. If it was successful it is likely that publicity on those successes could compromise operatives and other informants involved. Tracing the history back to the source is a common enough practice. Yup don't brag about Covert success and bare your soul.
    which doesn't make an unsubstantiated claim of efficacy any less bogus.

    'cause that would be yet another double-standard.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by pone View Post
    which doesn't make an unsubstantiated claim of efficacy any less bogus.

    'cause that would be yet another double-standard.
    CIA director Brennan just said that some CIA agents exceeded even the shameful bounds of legality that were attempted by the CIA with its shopping around for favorable legal opinion.

    That sounds like grounds for legal action. Even so it was a careful exercise in ass covering.

    Brennan also said the behavior was abhorrent. He said he stands by his earlier statements that torture undermines America security, is a goldmine for Islamists, and leads to false info that takes valuable time to disprove.

    And that's coming from a CIA apologist!

    "Discussion" of torture is a crock.
    Last edited by BadHabit; 12-11-2014 at 11:53 AM.
    "That was some weird sh!t."—overheard from George W. Bush after attending Trump's inauguration

  4. #254
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    Gee, hardliner against using torture, or hardliner for torturing people.

    Guess I know which one I'd rather be.
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    So now you're getting into the semantics of what constitutes "waterboarding".


    What the meaning of "is" is.

    Jesus Christ, you torture apologists are hopeless. When we get to the point where you can just admit it fuels your big tough macho man fantasies about you and your country, then we might get somewhere.
    There is a clear difference. Go to the links and educate yourself instead of wasting time with name calling, insults, and personal attacks. It's a sure sign that you cannot defend your position BTW - removes any doubt.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Hardliners fits people on both sides of this difference of views and concerns. The demand for proof that the methods works is a blind alley. If it was successful it is likely that publicity on those successes could compromise operatives and other informants involved. Tracing the history back to the source is a common enough practice. Yup don't brag about Covert success and bare your soul.
    Exactly - fear of the unknown is powerful. Now terrorists have nothing to fear regarding treatment after capture. Check that - we don't capture any terrorists anymore - Obama goes to the list and blows them and anyone within 50 feet to smithereens. Hopefully no mistakes are made - darn, I thought you said it was a green picnic table, my bad !!

  7. #257
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    Comments From Col Leo Thorsness

    Here is an interview with Col Leo Thorsness who was held captive in North Vietnam for 6 years. He is the recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor. He offers his views on waterboarding (it is not), whether useful information is gained from enhanced interrogation (the answer is yes), and John McCain's views (useful information is obtained). He offers a well thought out opinion based on real life experience.

    Last edited by AM999; 12-19-2014 at 11:18 AM.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    There is a clear difference. Go to the links and educate yourself instead of wasting time with name calling, insults, and personal attacks. It's a sure sign that you cannot defend your position BTW - removes any doubt.
    Educate myself. So some guy writes an article that says what we did isn't waterboarding, compared to what the Japanese did, and since his opinion agrees with your pre-disposed opinion, he and you are right, and everyone else is an ignorant, uninformed imbecile. Give me a break.

    You love the idea of torturing people. You want to see them beaten and bleeding, near to death. Just admit it.
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  9. #259
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    Americans in orange jumpsuits mean nothing to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    They don't do those things because we do
    Of course they say they do, but so what, when you say you know them better than they know themselves. Hmm....

    But I like where you say "we should just do what needs to be done" regardless of the Islamists. No ****! We should prosecute the torturers or it will happen again.
    "That was some weird sh!t."—overheard from George W. Bush after attending Trump's inauguration

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    Of course they say they do, but so what, when you say you know them better than they know themselves. Hmm....

    But I like where you say "we should just do what needs to be done" regardless of the Islamists. We should prosecute the torturers or else it will happen again.
    well snake is right that the "other guys" do not torture because we do... they would do it if we never did...they were and still are... but I am not concerned as much about that..as I am that we ever did it...what the other guys do or do not do is NOT the reason for us to do anything .... and the only reason they mention our doing it is for the problems that brings us here at home....they think we are weak for not having it as part of our regular routine but they will exploit any weakness they believe we have....the reason we should NOT torture is for our OWN benefit....

  11. #261
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    On top of that, the first link (to a Washington Post article) refers to what the Japanese did in WW2 as "a form of waterboarding." The 2nd link (Berkeley) goes nowhere.
    "When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    Of course they say they do, but so what, when you say you know them better than they know themselves. Hmm....

    But I like where you say "we should just do what needs to be done" regardless of the Islamists. No ****! We should prosecute the torturers or it will happen again.
    They say it because people like you believe them when they say it. They do it for a purpose, not retaliation. Same with us.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    CIA director Brennan just said that some CIA agents exceeded even the shameful bounds of legality that were attempted by the CIA with its shopping around for favorable legal opinion.

    That sounds like grounds for legal action. Even so it was a careful exercise in ass covering.

    Brennan also said the behavior was abhorrent. He said he stands by his earlier statements that torture undermines America security, is a goldmine for Islamists, and leads to false info that takes valuable time to disprove.

    And that's coming from a CIA apologist!

    "Discussion" of torture is a crock.
    An intellectually honest person would present everything that Mr. Brennan had to say, no ??

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Educate myself. So some guy writes an article that says what we did isn't waterboarding, compared to what the Japanese did, and since his opinion agrees with your pre-disposed opinion, he and you are right, and everyone else is an ignorant, uninformed imbecile. Give me a break.

    You love the idea of torturing people. You want to see them beaten and bleeding, near to death. Just admit it.
    Yes, educate yourself. You make a claim which is demonstrably false and then go into the name calling routine thus confirming your inability to defend that claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeBean2 View Post
    On top of that, the first link (to a Washington Post article) refers to what the Japanese did in WW2 as "a form of waterboarding." The 2nd link (Berkeley) goes nowhere.
    What the Washington Post's (and Ted Kennedy's) opinion of what they lump together as waterboarding is irrevelevant. Here are the actual charges - this is much different and more dangerous than the waterboarding used by the CIA. And this is the least of the water tortures used by only one Japanese citizen. The other instances were much more serious. The convictions were also based on an summation of many changes - not just water torture.

    The second problem with Kennedy's statement is that the "water torture" wasn't the same as CIA waterboarding.... Here are the actual charges....

    Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
    Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

    He was pouring water DIRECTLY into their nose and mouth... When the CIA waterboards people, a rag is placed over the face to PREVENT water from entering the nose and mouth. This is a much harser and dangerous act. -- In some of the other Japanese cases, the "water torture" included strapping people to ladders and dunking them face down into swimming pools until they passed out. This is not the same as waterboarding.
    The specific links are dead but this is a summary. Asano is listed.

    Yokohama Trials

    http://wcsc.berkeley.edu/wp-content/...PT-archive.htm
    Last edited by AM999; 12-11-2014 at 02:32 PM.

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    So you say. Most folks don't see the WSJ as the Tool of the Liberal Elite.

    McCain got it right this time: Torture is something we shouldn't have been doing, that we were deluded/lied to by the Torture Elite.

    As for the convention being law, well, the law is the law, yes? So, where's the prosecution of the lawbreakers?
    That is my entire point. I say the president and the Senate, based on this report, should be forwarding everything to the DoJ to see if there is enough evidence to go to trial.

    I think they are doingthe opposite, asking us to move on, because they know the report is largely spin and that their hands are just as bloody and this report is in large part being done to in essence throw people to the "Public Relations" wolves, while keeping it out of a court room to prevent them ALL from being thrown to the wolves.

    many of the people involved would be protected by the statute of limitations (as an example.) Those that aren't so protected are still in office. Shocker how this is working out isn't it?
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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  17. #267
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    Tell you what AM. You submit to the CIA-like waterboarding, and then come on here and tell us it wasn't torture.

    Like I said. You're just arguing semantics about what constitutes waterboarding. For every source yoiu can link to that says the CIA process wasn't water boarding, or water torture, because it was different from other similar torture processes, there are just as many out there that says it is waterboarding, and it is torture.

    But it's good to know that you're such a staunch devotee of torture. Do you get a little tingle in the nether regions when you think about it?
    Eff the King's Guard. Eff the city. Eff the King.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    That is my entire point. I say the president and the Senate, based on this report, should be forwarding everything to the DoJ to see if there is enough evidence to go to trial.

    I think they are doingthe opposite, asking us to move on, because they know the report is largely spin and that their hands are just as bloody and this report is in large part being done to in essence throw people to the "Public Relations" wolves, while keeping it out of a court room to prevent them ALL from being thrown to the wolves.

    many of the people involved would be protected by the statute of limitations (as an example.) Those that aren't so protected are still in office. Shocker how this is working out isn't it?
    Prosecution would be fine with me.

    Do you have any substantiations for your conjecture that the President and the Senate have equally bloody hands, or your speculation as to how they view the report?

    The Senate has made its report, which is hardly "moving on," and we'll see what the White House does. I think the WH is gauging public sentiment, to better assess any costs of political capital, before moving forward; Obama's nothing if not shrewd about dealing with PR.

    Is there a statute of limitations on war crimes? Who are the persons you're referring to that are "still in office?"

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Tell you what AM. You submit to the CIA-like waterboarding, and then come on here and tell us it wasn't torture.

    Like I said. You're just arguing semantics about what constitutes waterboarding. For every source yoiu can link to that says the CIA process wasn't water boarding, or water torture, because it was different from other similar torture processes, there are just as many out there that says it is waterboarding, and it is torture.

    But it's good to know that you're such a staunch devotee of torture. Do you get a little tingle in the nether regions when you think about it?
    So that's the next step. I can have no opinion because I haven't been subjected to it. I'll stay with Congressional Medal of Honor Awardee Col Thorness and his opinion based on actual torture at the hands of the NVA. The CIA waterboarding is not torture - it is legal enhanced interrogation treatment. The water torture practiced by those 5 Japanese who were tried and convicted for actually more heinous torture methods. If you want to read more about the Japanese prison camps in which ~ 40% of US prisoners died get a copy of "Unbroken."

    And again all you have is the name calling.

  20. #270
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    WASHINGTON — Former Vice-President Dick Cheney on Tuesday called upon the nations of the world to “once and for all ban the despicable and heinous practice of publishing torture reports.”

    “Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.”
    “The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.”
    Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.”
    Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    So that's the next step. I can have no opinion because I haven't been subjected to it. I'll stay with Congressional Medal of Honor Awardee Col Thorness and his opinion based on actual torture at the hands of the NVA. The CIA waterboarding is not torture - it is legal enhanced interrogation treatment. The water torture practiced by those 5 Japanese who were tried and convicted for actually more heinous torture methods. If you want to read more about the Japanese prison camps in which ~ 40% of US prisoners died get a copy of "Unbroken."

    And again all you have is the name calling.
    FTR we executed both Germans and Japanese for doing what we have now done

    you can parse it any way you want "our torture wasn't as bad as their torture" if it makes you feel any better, just know at least one guy died during the process.

    farking shameful

    can't believe people are defending it

    little eichmanns indeed
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

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    and why is there always some weird, kinky gay undercurrent to these things?
    Naked men in chains with guys putting things in their backsides.

    I think all you reactionaries should just go find a nice boy an get over it
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    FTR we executed both Germans and Japanese for doing what we have now done

    you can parse it any way you want "our torture wasn't as bad as their torture" if it makes you feel any better, just know at least one guy died during the process.

    farking shameful

    can't believe people are defending it

    little eichmanns indeed
    Laughable - you propose moral equivalency between water boarding 3 terrorists and the atrocities committed by the Nazis and Japanese Imperial Army.

    Can't believe the lefties are going there.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    Laughable - you propose moral equivalency between water boarding 3 terrorists and the atrocities committed by the Nazis and Japanese Imperial Army.

    Can't believe the lefties are going there.
    no, not the armies. We tried specific offenders for doing so

    "McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

    In the aftermath of World War II, Japanese officer Yukio Asano is charged by a US war crimes tribunal for torturing a US civilian. Asano had used the technique of “waterboarding” on the prisoner (see 1800 and After). The civilian was strapped to a stretcher with his feet in the air and head towards the floor, and water was poured over his face, causing him to gasp for air until he agreed to talk. Asano is convicted and sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. Other Japanese officers and soldiers are also tried and convicted of war crimes that include waterboarding US prisoners. “All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators,” reporter Evan Wallach will later write. In 2006, Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA), discussing allegations of US waterboarding of terror suspects, will say in regards to the Asano case, “We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II.”

    and the Gestapo

    "Verschärfte Vernehmung" - The Atlantic
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

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    Quote Originally Posted by badge118 View Post
    That is my entire point. I say the president and the Senate, based on this report, should be forwarding everything to the DoJ to see if there is enough evidence to go to trial.

    I think they are doingthe opposite, asking us to move on, because they know the report is largely spin and that their hands are just as bloody and this report is in large part being done to in essence throw people to the "Public Relations" wolves, while keeping it out of a court room to prevent them ALL from being thrown to the wolves.

    many of the people involved would be protected by the statute of limitations (as an example.) Those that aren't so protected are still in office. Shocker how this is working out isn't it?
    they should be forwarding to the hague
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

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