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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaddSkillz View Post
    Politicians talk about classified documents all the time. Talking about the contents of the classified document - you know, the classified info itself, is illegal.

    Your TDS is overriding your ability to reason.
    Huh? Trump and Klannity talk about the memo but not what is in it? How does that conversion go?

    Memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, memo, Click

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaddSkillz View Post
    I'll bet you $100 that FBI agent Strzok was the agent that stood in front of the FISA judge and made a case that Trump should be "wiretapped." We all know, he's completely reliable and an objective source, don't we?
    Do you have a link to support your claim the FBI wiretapped Trump or is this part of the latest Trump Groupie Fever dream?

  3. #178
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    Carter Page Touted Russia Contacts in 2013 Letter | Time

    In 2013 Carter Page bragged, in writing, that he was an adviser to the Kremlin.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Carter Page Touted Russia Contacts in 2013 Letter | Time

    In 2013 Carter Page bragged, in writing, that he was an adviser to the Kremlin.
    The editor [of a book Page wrote on Russian relations] said that Page’s views on Russia were notably different from other scholars. “He wanted to make the argument that we needed to look more positively at Russia’s economic reforms and Russia’s relationship with Central Asia,” says the editor. “I didn’t think it was so weird, it was just contradictory to most mainstream Russian specialist’s views.”

    The editor thinks Page was ultimately harmless in terms of national security threats. “I would never have seen him in the center of concern like this, or playing a role or being seen as an intermediary between the Russian government and a political candidate,” the editor said. “He struck me just as someone who had developed some strange academic views … and wanted to have them published,” the editor says.


    You can interpret "strange academic views" any way you want, but Page had a very good point. We don't want to set up rivalries between US and Russia in the global community, especially in Asia and Africa where we have a bad record.

    Absolutely no rational reason to step up hostilities with the Russkies. Its all talk, propaganda, fake news heaped on from both sides! The nation is standing in sh!t up to it's knees. Individuals from various political persuasions and loyalties verbally exchanging ideas with a good outcome for all sides is what sane people want.

    Placing sanctions on a whole country for the sins of its government leaders is terribly divisive. It places the world in two camps, those who ignore the sanctions and those who, for whatever reasons of their own, get behind the sanctions. Both sides sub-divide further, as nobody's sure what to do next.

    Wanna end Russian interference in our elections? Give them a seat at the table. This is just common sense, comrades! Sustenance will tame the beast.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Absolutely no rational reason to step up hostilities with the Russkies.
    Seriously? invading countries, interfering with elections, stoking a refugee crisis, assassinating journalist and opposition?

    Trump, and his loyal followers, think we should ignore this embrace Comrade Vlad. Reasonable people think that is insane.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Seriously? invading countries, interfering with elections, stoking a refugee crisis, assassinating journalist and opposition?

    Trump, and his loyal followers, think we should ignore this embrace Comrade Vlad. Reasonable people think that is insane.
    I'm gonna wager History will not look kindly on this. This will sit down there with McCarthy and the Internment of Japanese Americans as low points in our democracy
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  7. #182
    feh
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    I'm gonna wager History will not look kindly on this. This will sit down there with McCarthy and the Internment of Japanese Americans as low points in our democracy
    I had a recent holiday meal w/ a family of Republicans. I had to listen to a couple of them say they're glad Kaepernick has been black-balled by the NFL.

    Think they realize they're endorsing McCarthyism? I seriously doubt it, and even if they did, they'd find some way to rationalize it. That's the state of today's GOP.
    What's the Matter with Kansas?

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Seriously? invading countries, interfering with elections, stoking a refugee crisis, assassinating journalist and opposition?

    Trump, and his loyal followers, think we should ignore this embrace Comrade Vlad. Reasonable people think that is insane.
    We aren't distinguishing Putin from the Russian people. First mistake.

    Short of murdering opposition politicians and the more virulent voices in the hostile press, the Russkies are saying the same things about us. They're reacting to our military aid to NATO and nuke missile build up in eastern Europe, taking protective measures, laying claim to their historical turf.

    JFK laid claim to sovereignty over the entire western hemisphere in the Cuban Missile Crisis and later Nixon did the same in Chile. Our relationships with Latin America have been rocky for years. We've come out on the side of klepto dictatorships who resisted social reform, so the Russkies offered to step in and lend a helping hand. The Vietnam War remains an indelible stain on our reputation. We still haven't made an honorable retreat out of Iraq, and have no idea what to do in Afghanistan 15 years after invading the place.

    Interference in foreign elections is in the US playbook! We've interfered in countless foreign elections during the Cold War and don't hesitate to do so to this day if "its in our national interest."

    Let's not moralize about the refugee crisis! We're doing badly accepting refugees from the ME, taking some of the burden off Europe. Our record is terrible.

    I'll grant you, we haven't started assassinating political opposition, but ya have to wonder how close we're coming when TV anchors will implore viewers to say, "I'm pissed off and not gonna take it anymore!" like in "Broadcast News," and calling for revolt in the streets. "#Resist!"

    When the social fabric unravels, as it did in '68, and to a lesser extent in '79, "strong" men come in to restore a semblance of "order" and "homeland security." The people then lose their freedom in all respects, well demonstrated in the years after 9/11. Intolerance and paranoia take over. Rivals accuse each other of murderous ambitions, and some crazy assassin acts on it. Meanwhile, innocent citizens are dredged up in databases, scrutinized by government agents who can knock on your door and take you away for "questioning."

    The Russians are going to work it out. So will the Ukrainians. We can cheer from the sidelines, but stay the hell out of the way. By all means, don't insult their ways of life, such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, two examples. When are we going to stop messing up other peoples nests when every time we get a bloody nose?
    Last edited by Fredrico; 02-04-2018 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #184
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    салат из тролля

  10. #185
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    "JFK laid claim to sovereignty over the entire western hemisphere in the Cuban Missile Crisis and later Nixon did the same in Chile."

    This idea did not originate with JFK. The idea that European powers should keep out of the Americas was first espoused in the early 19th century as the Monroe Doctrine. Our relations with Latin America have been problematic long before the Soviets got involved, going back to multiple interventions on behalf of United Fruit Co and other US corporations. There is a reason for the term "banana republic", after all.

    "
    Let's not moralize about the refugee crisis! We're doing badly accepting refugees from the ME, taking some of the burden off Europe. Our record is terrible. "

    And the man you support is making the situation even worse.
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    "JFK laid claim to sovereignty over the entire western hemisphere in the Cuban Missile Crisis and later Nixon did the same in Chile."

    This idea did not originate with JFK. The idea that European powers should keep out of the Americas was first espoused in the early 19th century as the Monroe Doctrine. Our relations with Latin America have been problematic long before the Soviets got involved, going back to multiple interventions on behalf of United Fruit Co and other US corporations. There is a reason for the term "banana republic", after all.

    "
    Let's not moralize about the refugee crisis! We're doing badly accepting refugees from the ME, taking some of the burden off Europe. Our record is terrible. "

    And the man you support is making the situation even worse.
    Thanks for filling in the history from the Monroe Doctrine. We made friends with our rivals of that time: the Brits, French, Spanish, and 200 years later, with world investments and trade going on as never before, those days are over. Today's global perspective is much different than in 1800.

    The US wants to expand hegemony across the seas. China is starting to get nervous in the South China Sea, for example. They would prefer us to stay our military out of their turf. Bad enough we have nukes in SK, made more fearsome with THAAD. That's why they're building bases on those islands now being contested by the US navy.

    Yes, Trump is screwing up the refugee crisis even worse, but this is consistent with a generally stingy trend, no doubt subservient to Homeland Security since at least 9/11. The US has been admitting the moneyed elites and leaving the peasants in the transition camps for Europeans to worry about.

    I'm not "supporting" Trump. Merely trying to understand the guy, as I would with any controversial political figure. He's a fascinating character in American politics, wouldn't you agree?

    Have to admit I find the moralizing from the left a bit of an over-reach, so its fun to play devil's advocate.

  12. #187
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    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...crime?ref=home

    Nick Akerman, a former Watergate prosecutor who is a partner at Dorsey and Whitney, gives a detailed legal explanation of why the Trump crime family is screwed

    “The conspiracy charges that arise from it will likely send some of Trump’s friends and relatives to jail. And they won’t look so good for the president, either, if presented next year at his impeachment trial in the Senate.”

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...crime?ref=home

    Nick Akerman, a former Watergate prosecutor who is a partner at Dorsey and Whitney, gives a detailed legal explanation of why the Trump crime family is screwed
    As long as we're playing arm chair lawyer:

    July 27: In a speech, Trump says, "By the way, if they [Russians] hacked, they probably have her 33,000 emails. I hope they do.” Trump later said he was joking but it reinforces his “awareness” of an unlawful act.

    Russian hacking of DNC computers was already front page news in public media. Trump was joking about the news.

    August 21: Roger Stone, a longtime friend and adviser to Trump, shows knowledge of the conspiracy by tweeting, "Trust me, it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel. #CrookedHillary,” in reference to Clinton campaign chair John Podesta, and Stone admits having communicated with both Guccifer 2.0 and Wikileaks in July, all elements of the conspiracy.

    All old news everybody already knew. Stone was speculating on what he wished were true.

    October 7: Within hours of the release of the Access Hollywood tape, which dealt a serious blow to the Trump campaign, Wikileaks releases the first in a series of 60,000 emails belonging to Podesta. Wikileaks effectively acts as an arm of the Trump campaign in a “mutual understanding” to deflect attention away from the sex scandal.

    "Effectively acts" is not the same as "conspiracy." Again, parallel courses each presenting the other with opportunities of the moment, but not necessarily planned beforehand between Russian diplomats and Trump campaignistas.

    December 29: Deputy National Security Adviser-designate K.T. McFarland emails a colleague about the aftermath of outgoing President Obama’s implementation of sanctions: “If there is a tit-for-tat escalation, Trump will have difficulty improving relations with Russia, which has just thrown USA election to him.” (emphasis added) The same day, Flynn tells Kislyak not to escalate because Trump is coming into office with a new, much friendlier policy, thereby fulfilling Trump’s end of the corrupt deal.

    Is stating the wish for detente with the evil Russkies evidence of criminal conspiracy? At what point does normal diplomatic chatter become criminal conspiracy?

    The Russians did not throw the US election to Trump. Evidence shows they failed to access the vote counts or voter rolls, nor inject any gremlins into the system. Evidence DOES show Trump got a small segment of blue collar votes in critical swing states. Marginal wins in PA, Ohio, Florida, NC, added up and sprung the electoral votes in his favor. Same thing happened in 2000. Red states have lopsided political power through the electoral system.

    The Russians take the role of scapegoat amongst the fearful liberals who saw their lady go down against this brute. We had the same feelings about Reagan in '80. Carter was a great guy but he shot himself in the foot with his "malaise" comment, just as Hillary did with her "basket of deplorables." You can't brand a whole segment of the public losers and expect to get their votes.

    Reagan showed up the liberal press who hated him, taking all electoral votes in '84 except those of Walter Mondale's home state. Ouch! Ain't American democracy great!?
    Last edited by Fredrico; 02-10-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    As long as we're playing arm chair lawyer:
    Huh? A Watergate prosecutor, Partner at one of the worlds top law firms, Harvard Law, is a "Arm Chair Lawyer"


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    I like how "mutual understanding" does not equal "conspiracy". It's just a gentleman's agreement, so there is nothing wrong with that, right?
    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkay View Post
    I like how "mutual understanding" does not equal "conspiracy". It's just a gentleman's agreement, so there is nothing wrong with that, right?
    Why would it have to be an agreement, or anything planned. It could just be independent actors working off each other's cues, "taking advantage of the moment." PACs as well as campaigns do this all the time during elections.

    Comparing this to Watergate is faulty. CREEP was directly controlled from the White House, including lots of money. The Russian interference was controlled by independent operatives in Russia for their own political reasons: lifting sanctions and getting back on track. Trump promised to do that through his love of his Russian creditors. Hillary promised to sustain sanction indefinitely as long as that Putin guy is in power. So the Russians tried to get Americans to vote for Trump.

    We all know that. The question remains: what laws did it break, other than one from 1798 that was prosecuted once 120 years ago? A year has passed and no evidence has materialized, only more suspicious speculations. All circumstantial, nothing concrete. Manafort's money laundering was favors for his Russian contacts he'd worked with before. Page will come across as sincerely wanting to improve relations with Russia. The guy's innocent of collusion. Same with Sessions, Flynn, and the others who talked to Russian diplomats in DC.

    Hey doc, that Watergate prosecutor is the real thing. I'm the armchair lawyer!

  17. #192
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    Life is short... enjoy the ride.

  18. #193
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    Tillerson and Democrats agree that Russia will try to influence Mexico's elections with fake news | Miami Herald

    Russia is trying to interfere in Mexican elections in an effort to pit them against the U.S.

  19. #194
    What the what???
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    Trump: "Even if there was collusion with Russia, it's not a crime."

    Just a question. Does this:



    count as “collusion”? The rest of the world seems to think so.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Opus51569; 02-13-2018 at 10:39 AM.
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  20. #195
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    Conflating the above terms to be equal is like saying, if you knew your next door neighbor was manufacturing meth but didn't call the cops, you would be "an accessory to crime." There's your slippery slope into a totalitarian state. Let free speech reign. The lies get quickly exposed. Censorship only allows the lies to take on a life of their own, as it did in Nazi Germany where citizens living adjacent to the extermination camps could deny to themselves they were smelling burning human flesh.

    I've watched RT a few times and never left with the conclusion I was being snookered to believe lies. Their slant was obvious, but they weren't lying. The moment you decide the truth on what "your side" is saying and opponents are "liars," we have a big problem with freedom of thought, the first thing a totalitarian government tries to curtail in its people. Don't do it.

  21. #196
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    More Americans wanted Hillary Clinton to be President than wanted Donald Trump.

    Donald Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I've watched RT a few times and never left with the conclusion I was being snookered to believe lies.
    Given your posts here that does not surprise me at all......

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    The crux of the matter:

    He [Trump] views the notion that Russia meddled in the election as an argument that he had help to win, and that he didn't win the election on his own.

    Trump rightly denies Russia made the difference, and that he won fair and square. The preponderance of evidence is solidly behind him on this.

    The rest of Trump's denial is motivated by a sincere desire to achieve detente with the former arch enemy of the US, which has opened the doors to high priced political advisors like Manafort, following the money on both sides of the fence and offering money laundering services to clients expressly to get past the Obama sanctions.

    Trump is laying low not to destroy hope for a thaw in American fear and hostility to all things Russian, including RT, users on public discussion sites, et. al.

    The best way to win a shouting match is to withdraw.

    The Russkies could be instrumental denuclearizing NK, as well as ending the bloodshed in Syria. Leftist blood lust is entirely inappropriate. Jesus would not approve.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Given your posts here that does not surprise me at all......
    Does it surprise you I also watch MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News? I also read with growing cynicism the rants on Politico and Slate, mostly as obviously "slanted," if not more so, than RT.

    [deleted by moderator]

  25. #200
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    I heard Trump is investigating the Women's Olympic Hockey Team because they blew out the Olympic Athletes from Russia.
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