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  1. #1
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    "We all pulled together..."—Clint Eastwood

    "...to save the auto industry."

    What???

    Obama saved those jobs. Romney said who cares.

    Eastwood should have told it straight.

    That's the election; that's the choice.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  2. #2
    No Crybabies
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    who?

    Didn't Fiat buy Chrysler? Who gets that credit?

    Chrysler Group LLC ( /ˈkrslər/) is an American multinational automaker headquartered in Auburn Hills, Michigan, USA. Chrysler was first organized as the Chrysler Corporation in 1925.[4]
    On June 10, 2009, Chrysler LLC emerged from a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization and substantially all of its operations were sold to a new company, Chrysler Group LLC, organized in alliance with the Italian automaker Fiat.[5][6] Initially holding a 20% interest in Chrysler Group, Fiat's stake was increased to 58.5% (fully diluted) following acquisition of the equity interests held by the U.S. Treasury (6% on 3 June 2011) and Canada (1.5% on 21 July 2011) [7][8]

    Chrysler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  3. #3
    Sticky Valentine
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    Yeah, which is kind of funny because I heard on NPR last week that Fiat about broke even while Chrysler turned a decent profit. Looks like they did good things with it.


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  4. #4
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    wait, I thought it was Bush's fault?
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  5. #5
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    also: Keith Urban drives a Fiat.

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  6. #6
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    that fiat scorpion looked real nice!!!

  7. #7
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    I noticed Clint didn't show a lot of footage of the Detroit ruins.
    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  8. #8
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    Who exactly "pulled together" to save Ford, then?
    * not actually a Rock Star

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed View Post
    Didn't Fiat buy Chrysler? Who gets that credit?
    $7.6 billion U.S. loan to keep Chrysler afloat—Obama gets the credit.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Who exactly "pulled together" to save Ford, then?
    Ford was able to save itself; no bankruptcy threat.

    Obama saved GM and Chrysler and hundreds of thousands of jobs.

    For that alone he deserves reelection.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    Ford was able to save itself; no bankruptcy threat.

    Obama saved GM and Chrysler and hundreds of thousands of jobs.

    For that alone he deserves reelection.
    Sure, after Bush first gave them a loan guarantee to keep them afloat a few months longer.

    So, you voted for Bush on that basis, yes?
    * not actually a Rock Star

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus Jones II View Post
    I noticed Clint didn't show a lot of footage of the Detroit ruins.
    And didn't remark on the fact that the voting rights of nearly half of African Americans in Michigan have been usurped by Republicans.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Sure, after Bush first gave them a loan guarantee to keep them afloat a few months longer.

    So, you voted for Bush on that basis, yes?
    Why didn't bushy just go all in?

  14. #14
    Always changing.....
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    He probably helped Electro-Motive (Caterpillar) move back to the US as well.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    wait, I thought it was Bush's fault?
    Give Bush credit for $$$1.2 trillion to bailout the banks that were too big to fail. The auto bailout was all Obama, and NO I DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Bush first gave [Ford] a loan guarantee to keep them afloat
    Incorrect. It was a technology development incentive low-interest loan to a viable company, which is why Chrysler and GM were not eligible.

    But since Obama saved GM and Chrysler (and hundreds of thousands of jobs) while Romney would have let them disappear, GM and Chrysler have a future as American companies eligible for such job-producing loans.

    Obama is a hero for American manufacturing. Highest growth in manufacturing jobs since 1990. Not if Romney were running things, that's for sure.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    Incorrect. It was a technology development incentive low-interest loan to a viable company, which is why Chrysler and GM were not eligible.

    But since Obama saved GM and Chrysler (and hundreds of thousands of jobs) while Romney would have let them disappear, GM and Chrysler have a future as American companies eligible for such job-producing loans.

    Obama is a hero for American manufacturing. Highest growth in manufacturing jobs since 1990.
    What do you think McCain or Bush would have done?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    What do you think McCain or Bush would have done?
    Not sure if McCain would have attempted much; he seems kind of passive; not an idea man.

    I doubt Bush would throw the industry overboard like Romney. I think that's what sets Romney apart—his willingness to let his personal bottom line be the final decision on American jobs.

    Bush would have taken the companies to the wall with worker concessions; not sure how many American jobs Bush would have saved or whether they'd be good jobs.

    [I was in the middle of editing the 09 GM annual report when the plug was pulled; was going to be a confident theme, as usual.]
    Last edited by BadHabit; 02-06-2012 at 11:32 AM.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  19. #19
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    Didn't a great many GOP senators and Congressmen- Corker from Tennessee prominently, for example- argue that the government should just let GM and Chrysler die, and not help in any way?

    And isn't a tenant of current GOP economic ideology that it doesn't really matter if companies like GM go away, even as large as they are, and even as many jobs as they provide both directly and indirectly, 'cuz they'll be replaced by something else anyway, and that's just the way things are in today's churning, rapid-change global economy?

    If so, I think they were wrong on both counts, but it'd be interesting to re-hear the history on this, and ppl's takes on it.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    churning
    I think the term is more popular with venture capitalists than families.
    They give power to elites; we give power to elites. They keep minorities down; we keep minorities down. They rig elections; we rig elections. They abuse prisoners; we abuse prisoners.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
    Incorrect. It was a technology development incentive low-interest loan to a viable company, which is why Chrysler and GM were not eligible.

    But since Obama saved GM and Chrysler (and hundreds of thousands of jobs) while Romney would have let them disappear, GM and Chrysler have a future as American companies eligible for such job-producing loans.

    Obama is a hero for American manufacturing. Highest growth in manufacturing jobs since 1990. Not if Romney were running things, that's for sure.
    "In September, 2008 the Big Three asked for $50 billion to pay for health care expenses and avoid bankruptcy and ensuing layoffs, and Congress worked out a 25$ billion loan.[83] By December, President Bush had agreed to an emergency bailout of $17.4 billion to be distributed by the next administration in January and February.[84] In early 2009, the prospect of avoiding bankruptcy by General Motors and Chrysler continued to wane as new financial information about the scale of the 2008 losses came in. Ultimately, poor management and business practices forced Chrysler and General Motors into bankruptcy. Chrysler filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on May 1, 2009 [85] followed by General Motors a month later.[86]"

    - Automotive industry crisis of 2008

    BTW, guys, I'm just poking at you. At the time, I think we all agreed that Bush was just kicking the can down the road so it would be Obama's problem. I was fine with that, since lame-duck Presidents routinely do that sort of thing.

    OTOH, I am still a bit chuffed that all you libs crow about the "success" of the bailouts of GM and Chrysler, but consistently fail to note that Ford didn't get the big bailout, and still survives, intact and profitable.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    t it'd be interesting to re-hear the history on this, and ppl's takes on it.
    .
    The wiki article seems decent, if you're inclined to accept wiki facts.

    My take - it's not over yet. GM has yet to show that they can be a long-term viable business under the new management. Sure, Obama used our money to buy the company some breathing room, while at the same time handing over a huge chunk of wealth to his union buddies. But, did he really save jobs, long-term?

    Anybody care to do the math on $ paid by we the people (so far), vs jobs saved (so far)?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    The wiki article seems decent, if you're inclined to accept wiki facts.

    My take - it's not over yet. GM has yet to show that they can be a long-term viable business under the new management. Sure, Obama used our money to buy the company some breathing room, while at the same time handing over a huge chunk of wealth to his union buddies. But, did he really save jobs, long-term?

    Anybody care to do the math on $ paid by we the people (so far), vs jobs saved (so far)?
    So, you think we should have just spread out that money over their workers?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    My take - it's not over yet. GM has yet to show that they can be a long-term viable business under the new management.
    With their new labor cost structure, and less debt... sure, they very much look viable long-term.

    They just aren't world-beaters yet. Which is why, back when ppl here (or in the Lounge?) were asking if they should invest in 'the new GM' initial stock offering, I said that they'd probably make some money in the short- or medium-term if they did... but long-term, GM was only the fifth- or sixth-best car manufacturer in the world, and making a profit off their stock long-term would be iffy at best.

    Given what the stock price has done to date, looks like I was correct.

    Sure, Obama used our money to buy the company some breathing room, while at the same time handing over a huge chunk of wealth to his union buddies. But, did he really save jobs, long-term?
    Given that it doesn't look like the new GM is going to fold anytime soon, I'd have to say yes, he did.

    Anybody care to do the math on $ paid by we the people (so far), vs jobs saved (so far)?
    If someone does, they should include indirect jobs as well (parts suppliers, dealerships, etc) and the impact on local economies (restaurants, the housing market, local tax base, etc etc).
    .
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    If someone does, they should include indirect jobs as well (parts suppliers, dealerships, etc) and the impact on local economies (restaurants, the housing market, local tax base, etc etc).
    Ah yes, the trickle-down theory. Right.
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