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  1. #101
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    The pain is NOT shared across the board now. To achieve what you fervently wish, we'd have to redistribute taxes a bit. WHich you hate the very idea of, as if rates now are PERFECT.

    You can't have it all ways, Snake.

    And please, stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said, nor do I think, that rich people are evil. I don't know how much plainer I can be. I DO think they're feeling no pain whatsoever under current tax rates, while most folks are, and it's fair to ask for a bit more more, given the enormous benefits they have received and will continue to receive from this country. Why this is 'punishment' is beyond me. By your logic, any time you have to pay for something -- whether it be a consumer good or the privilege of being an American -- it's 'punishment.'

    I really don't get you. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Right wingery's ass. His entire focus is socialism. The class warfare he generates will be with us long after he is gone from office. The polarization of politics in this country is two way.

    You can't handle the truth. We can agree on some social programs that are worthwhile. The difference between us is I understand that I am leaning toward socialism and you prefer to feel is it justice. Problem is that the only crime those you choose to demonize have committed is to have been good at capitalism which has always been the driving force behind our economy. I think politicians should be able to sit down and work together for the greater good but that means all of us feel the pinch. If the country is in crisis we all have a responsibility to contribute to a solution. Repeal ALL the Bush tax cuts and not just those that do more good as your income rises.

    You don't have to include "evil" in your description of the rich bastards that are ruining the country, it's implied and understood. It's also largely wrong. I'm sick of hearing about how mean the Republicans are in this struggle. I have no real feeling for what it is that they want just like you have no real idea what Obama has put on the table that has real substance. Just like healthcare it's all to come into play later. It's like a trade in baseball made up entirely of players to be named later.

    The way to sell sacrifice is across the board. Pain should be shared by all of us because it is OUR country. Selling it as only hurting THEM is socialist and it doesn't matter what other terms you would rather describe it in. It's devisive and damaging and it is exactly what can actually bring this great experiment to an end. Leadership should be bringing us together, not fostering hatred that will far outlast the people who failed to lead.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by OES View Post
    The pain is NOT shared across the board now. To achieve what you fervently wish, we'd have to redistribute taxes a bit. WHich you hate the very idea of, as if rates now are PERFECT.

    You can't have it all ways, Snake.

    And please, stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said, nor do I think, that rich people are evil. I don't know how much plainer I can be. I DO think they're feeling no pain whatsoever under current tax rates, while most folks are, and it's fair to ask for a bit more more, given the enormous benefits they have received and will continue to receive from this country. Why this is 'punishment' is beyond me. By your logic, any time you have to pay for something -- whether it be a consumer good or the privilege of being an American -- it's 'punishment.'

    I really don't get you. Seriously.

    And yet at the same time he thinks the people who make those goods and preform the services should be union employees earning middle class lifestyles like it's 1960 all over again.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    And yet at the same time he thinks the people who make those goods and preform the services should be union employees earning middle class lifestyles like it's 1960 all over again.
    The old fart's a mess of contradictions.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by OES View Post
    The pain is NOT shared across the board now. To achieve what you fervently wish, we'd have to redistribute taxes a bit. WHich you hate the very idea of, as if rates now are PERFECT.

    You can't have it all ways, Snake.

    And please, stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said, nor do I think, that rich people are evil. I don't know how much plainer I can be. I DO think they're feeling no pain whatsoever under current tax rates, while most folks are, and it's fair to ask for a bit more more, given the enormous benefits they have received and will continue to receive from this country. Why this is 'punishment' is beyond me. By your logic, any time you have to pay for something -- whether it be a consumer good or the privilege of being an American -- it's 'punishment.'

    I really don't get you. Seriously.
    The reason I'm hard for you to understand is that you project so much of your opinion on me. The language you use to make your case here implies that you think of rich people as enemies, which they ain't. They are fortunate that the pain they may feel during hard times is pretty much restricted to luxury items they may forgoe for the time being while poor people struggle to meet basic requirements. Them there is the fortunes of life though and it doesn't mean they did anything to create the problems that most of us deal with.

    I can listen to arguments about tax increases with a sympathetic ear as long as they are not used to create some kind of class warfare. Now I know that little statement may drive you to your screaming quotes in red but there you have it, it's the reality of the discourse. The problems we face today have been building since the 60's. Industry evolved and robotics have replaced much of the labor that once created the dream that was America. While education may be the answer there is always going to be a large portion of any population that doesn't reach the level required to prosper. It will probably get worse.

    There was a time when manual labor, digging ditches, building houses and such paid enough to live on. It still does but the problem is flat screen TVs, McMansions, cars that cost as much as the house I live in and items like that that tempt people who can't afford them into thinking that they can. That sort of thing gave us the housing bust, dreams and wanting more for yourself and your kids.

    You and the others here who think raising taxes on a small portion of the population is the answer also champion endless illegal immigration to compete for those jobs that don't quite make us rich but feed us. Then you insist on treating minimum wage as if it were ever intended to raise a family. You're part of the problem.

    We need a tax hike? Good, let's do it. Rescind the entire Bush tax cut package and start from there. SS is in trouble? Fine, raise the limit to a manageable point and pay the bills. I will caution against raising the retirement age though, I know it sounds great to a 30 year old but nobody under the age of 55 should have any voice in that decision. Forcing people to stay on jobs long after their value declines creates a log jam on the ladder of success for younger workers and results in less productivity. I was a valued employee and could still be working had I chosen to but I knew how much I had lost and my only real value was my knowledge and my value as a security blanket for the younger workers. That is not the same as an energetic productive employee and a business can only support so many advisers.

    You don't know me from my posts here because what I usually respond to is the ridiculous nature of the attacks you so enjoy. I'm much more like you than you might think. I'm very middle of the road, I don't watch FOX, have never listened to Rush and I don't base my conclusions on polls or historic charts. History is history and we live now. Trends give an idea of what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen and ALL polls are biased to some degree.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    The reason I'm hard for you to understand is that you project so much of your opinion on me. The language you use to make your case here implies that you think of rich people as enemies, which they ain't. They are fortunate that the pain they may feel during hard times is pretty much restricted to luxury items they may forgoe for the time being while poor people struggle to meet basic requirements. Them there is the fortunes of life though and it doesn't mean they did anything to create the problems that most of us deal with.

    I can listen to arguments about tax increases with a sympathetic ear as long as they are not used to create some kind of class warfare. Now I know that little statement may drive you to your screaming quotes in red but there you have it, it's the reality of the discourse. The problems we face today have been building since the 60's. Industry evolved and robotics have replaced much of the labor that once created the dream that was America. While education may be the answer there is always going to be a large portion of any population that doesn't reach the level required to prosper. It will probably get worse.

    There was a time when manual labor, digging ditches, building houses and such paid enough to live on. It still does but the problem is flat screen TVs, McMansions, cars that cost as much as the house I live in and items like that that tempt people who can't afford them into thinking that they can. That sort of thing gave us the housing bust, dreams and wanting more for yourself and your kids.

    You and the others here who think raising taxes on a small portion of the population is the answer also champion endless illegal immigration to compete for those jobs that don't quite make us rich but feed us. Then you insist on treating minimum wage as if it were ever intended to raise a family. You're part of the problem.

    We need a tax hike? Good, let's do it. Rescind the entire Bush tax cut package and start from there. SS is in trouble? Fine, raise the limit to a manageable point and pay the bills. I will caution against raising the retirement age though, I know it sounds great to a 30 year old but nobody under the age of 55 should have any voice in that decision. Forcing people to stay on jobs long after their value declines creates a log jam on the ladder of success for younger workers and results in less productivity. I was a valued employee and could still be working had I chosen to but I knew how much I had lost and my only real value was my knowledge and my value as a security blanket for the younger workers. That is not the same as an energetic productive employee and a business can only support so many advisers.

    You don't know me from my posts here because what I usually respond to is the ridiculous nature of the attacks you so enjoy. I'm much more like you than you might think. I'm very middle of the road, I don't watch FOX, have never listened to Rush and I don't base my conclusions on polls or historic charts. History is history and we live now. Trends give an idea of what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen and ALL polls are biased to some degree.
    Ed's still right, though. We have a problem. Bush cut taxes, reducing income to way below spending. Congress happily raised the "debt ceiling" 7 times. The economy tanked. Obama had to spend more money to prevent us all going to the poor house. So now we're deep into debt, and a certain portion of the voters are "mad and not going to take it anymore." But what's really going on? Why are a bunch of middle class citizens so up in arms all of a sudden over govt. borrowing? I'll say it's because they hate Obama, first. They hate everything he stands for: educated, "elite," "liberal," "socialist," and he's got dark skin and nappy hair! He wants to take money from the rich and give it to the poor!

    Those with the most money benefited disproportionately to the rest of us. They got richer while we got poorer. So it's only fair they give back some of their wealth to get us out of debt.

    Sane economists, sane Republican businessmen and corporate CEOs and bankers, don't want the govt. to default. They want the debt ceiling raised Aug. 2, just like it was 7 times when their guy was president. Several have said we can't solve the debt problem before Aug. 2nd, so we have to just bite the bullet, borrow the money necessary to pay the bills, and work on reducing govt. spending over the next months and years. The Reps don't want that. They think forcing the country into crisis will get them elected in 2012. They have another thing coming, IMO. The people are more intelligent than these idiots think.,
    Last edited by Fredrico; 07-28-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Ed's still right, though. We have a problem. Bush cut taxes, reducing income to way below spending. Congress happily raised the "debt ceiling" 7 times. The economy tanked. Obama had to spend more money to prevent us all going to the poor house. So now we're deep into debt, and a certain portion of the voters are "mad and not going to take it anymore." But what's really going on? Why are a bunch of middle class citizens so up in arms all of a sudden over govt. borrowing? I'll say it's because they hate Obama, first. They hate everything he stands for: educated, "elite," "liberal," "socialist," and he's got dark skin and nappy hair! He wants to take money from the rich and give it to the poor!

    Sane economists, sane Republican businessmen and corporate CEOs and bankers, don't want the govt. to default. They want the debt ceiling raised Aug. 2, just like it was 7 times when their guy was president. Several have said we can't solve the debt problem before Aug. 2nd, so we have to just bite the bullet, borrow the money necessary to pay the bills, and work on reducing govt. spending over the next months and years. The Reps don't want that. They think forcing the country into crisis will get them elected in 2012. They have another thing coming, IMO. The people are more intelligent than these idiots think.,
    So riddle me this: Why did Harry Reid go on the Senate floor in 2006 & give a speech about why we shouldn't raise the debt ceiling then but is clamoring for it now??

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd View Post
    So riddle me this: Why did Harry Reid go on the Senate floor in 2006 & give a speech about why we shouldn't raise the debt ceiling then but is clamoring for it now??
    Politics, fool. If they were half way intelligent, they would have resolved to reduce spending! But we were stuck in two big tar babies over in Iraq and Afghanistan! As snake says, the past is past. Forget about 2006. We're in real trouble now.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Politics, fool. If they were half way intelligent, they would have resolved to reduce spending! But we were stuck in two big tar babies over in Iraq and Afghanistan! As snake says, the past is past. Forget about 2006. We're in real trouble now.
    First, watch your mouth.

    2nd, if the past is the past, then you can stop your *****ing about the Rs raising the debt ceiling back then because that was then and this is now right?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Alright then let's fight. You tell me why your "centerist" President is playing the classic socialist game of turning the little people against the rich.
    Funny. I thought that's what the Tea Party was doing, with all its complaints that little people, like Joe the Plumber, were being taxed in order to bail out rich elitist bankers.

    I just don't see how you would conclude that Obama is doing more than the Tea Party at pitting "little people" against "elite rich people." Have you noticed that whenever Obama speaks on the subject, he identifies himself as a rich person? Have you ever seen Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Eric Cantor, or any of those folks identify themselves publicly as members of the rich elite?
    Anything that doesn't take years of your life and drive you to suicide hardly seems worth doing. ---- Cormac McCarthy

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  10. #110
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    Talking Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd View Post
    First, watch your mouth.

    2nd, if the past is the past, then you can stop your *****ing about the Rs raising the debt ceiling back then because that was then and this is now right?
    You should have had the answer to your question! In my crowd, "fool" is a term of endearment!

    All of us who are upset raising the debt ceiling is now held hostage by a bunch of yahoos with some scurvy political points to make, are shaking our heads at why this time should be any different than before! I tried to explain that, but you ignored it.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    You should have had the answer to your question! In my crowd, "fool" is a term of endearment!

    All of us who are upset raising the debt ceiling is now held hostage by a bunch of yahoos with some scurvy political points to make, are shaking our heads at why this time should be any different than before! I tried to explain that, but you ignored it.
    So then those who are fighting not to raise, why are they considered any different that Harry Reid's crowd back in 06 who didn't want to raise it?? Its all of them man, you are making this so one sided its pathetic. Don't you see its all these idiots up there that got us here?

  12. #112
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    Thumbs up You got it!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd View Post
    ..Don't you see its all these idiots up there that got us here?
    I thought we established that!

    This time, however, the TP idiots are trying to sabotage the country in a time of economic and financial instability, and large unemployment. This is an outrage. They're fools not to come together, raise the damn debt ceiling and fight the budget battles tomorrow!

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I thought we established that!

    This time, however, the TP idiots are trying to sabotage the country in a time of economic and financial instability, and large unemployment. This is an outrage. They're fools not to come together, raise the damn debt ceiling and fight the budget battles tomorrow!
    So is that like kicking the can down the road?? If not now, when? Look, I support raising it up with significant spending cuts. But we can't keep pushing problems off on future generations.

  14. #114
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    Thumbs up Agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd View Post
    So is that like kicking the can down the road?? If not now, when? Look, I support raising it up with significant spending cuts. But we can't keep pushing problems off on future generations.
    But we can't make major spending cuts until employment goes up! We can trim off fat, like letting the tax cuts expire on the billions in the bank accounts of the super rich!

    Yes, the politicians have to make grave promises to the American people that they will act to reduce spending and increase revenue, and pay off the damn debt! Not just increase spending! We should hold them to it. But it's totally unrealistic, foolish, to expect immediate results. Obama has offered solutions that work over 10 years. That's realistic.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    But we can't make major spending cuts until employment goes up! We can trim off fat, like letting the tax cuts expire on the billions in the bank accounts of the super rich!

    Yes, the politicians have to make grave promises to the American people that they will act to reduce spending and increase revenue, and pay off the damn debt! Not just increase spending! We should hold them to it. But it's totally unrealistic, foolish, to expect immediate results. Obama has offered solutions that work over 10 years. That's realistic.
    Ok....hang on a sec. If barry spent $787 billion and unemployment is still over 9%, whats the logic in being scared of cuts that "might" affect unemployment? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredke View Post
    Funny. I thought that's what the Tea Party was doing, with all its complaints that little people, like Joe the Plumber, were being taxed in order to bail out rich elitist bankers.

    I just don't see how you would conclude that Obama is doing more than the Tea Party at pitting "little people" against "elite rich people." Have you noticed that whenever Obama speaks on the subject, he identifies himself as a rich person? Have you ever seen Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Eric Cantor, or any of those folks identify themselves publicly as members of the rich elite?
    Shoot, I identified him as a rich person long before he started owning up to it. He just sees himself as a GOOD rich person as opposed to the other oppressers.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd View Post
    Ok....hang on a sec. If barry spent $787 billion and unemployment is still over 9%, whats the logic in being scared of cuts that "might" affect unemployment? Seriously?
    Because the bailout funds went into the banks, not our pocketbooks. They haven't followed through like they were supposed to, and lent this money out to small business who would hire people. The TARP money has almost been all paid back.

    The money now being spent by the govt. is going back into the economy, supporting little people with lots of jobs, and entitlements which the beneficiaries are spending into the economy to keep going. That's how it works. Cut off that money, and employees get fired, those scraping along the bottom of the barrel already get squeezed out, and we have conditions that produce resentment, crime, anarchy, and revolution. Karl Marx wrote about it in Das Kapital.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Ed's still right, though. We have a problem. Bush cut taxes, reducing income to way below spending. Congress happily raised the "debt ceiling" 7 times. The economy tanked. Obama had to spend more money to prevent us all going to the poor house. So now we're deep into debt, and a certain portion of the voters are "mad and not going to take it anymore." But what's really going on? Why are a bunch of middle class citizens so up in arms all of a sudden over govt. borrowing? I'll say it's because they hate Obama, first. They hate everything he stands for: educated, "elite," "liberal," "socialist," and he's got dark skin and nappy hair! He wants to take money from the rich and give it to the poor!

    Those with the most money benefited disproportionately to the rest of us. They got richer while we got poorer. So it's only fair they give back some of their wealth to get us out of debt.

    Sane economists, sane Republican businessmen and corporate CEOs and bankers, don't want the govt. to default. They want the debt ceiling raised Aug. 2, just like it was 7 times when their guy was president. Several have said we can't solve the debt problem before Aug. 2nd, so we have to just bite the bullet, borrow the money necessary to pay the bills, and work on reducing govt. spending over the next months and years. The Reps don't want that. They think forcing the country into crisis will get them elected in 2012. They have another thing coming, IMO. The people are more intelligent than these idiots think.,
    The problem was there long before Bush cut taxes and revoking those tax cuts won't solve it. I'm not a Tea Party advocate and Michelle and Sarah in the WH is unimaginable to me just as it is to those of you I swap insults with here. From time to time though, I actually read the "crazy" things the Tea Party advocates say and they just don't seem all that insane to me. Taking out a Discover to pay the Visa that you used to pay the American Express, now THAT'S insane. The left would have a hell of a lot more credibility with me if I hadn't just finished listening to almost 8 years of them being on the other side of many of the issues.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    The problem was there long before Bush cut taxes and revoking those tax cuts won't solve it. I'm not a Tea Party advocate and Michelle and Sarah in the WH is unimaginable to me just as it is to those of you I swap insults with here. From time to time though, I actually read the "crazy" things the Tea Party advocates say and they just don't seem all that insane to me. Taking out a Discover to pay the Visa that you used to pay the American Express, now THAT'S insane. The left would have a hell of a lot more credibility with me if I hadn't just finished listening to almost 8 years of them being on the other side of many of the issues.
    I have to say, you must never have really listened to me.

  20. #120
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    Unhappy Boo hoo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    Shoot, I identified him as a rich person long before he started owning up to it. He just sees himself as a GOOD rich person as opposed to the other oppressers.
    Obama was poor once. He knows what it's like, and therefore has compassion for those not as fortunate as he.

    The rich get complacent, luxuriating in their wealth, free of wants, having the money to get anything they want, satisfy their every whim. Now they're spoiled even more, with their tax breaks. And they haven't done a damn thing about "creating jobs."

    So the deal's off. Time for them to give up their tax breaks and start contributing to whittling down the massive govt. debt, amassed because of them, pretty much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Obama was poor once. He knows what it's like, and therefore has compassion for those not as fortunate as he.

    The rich get complacent, luxuriating in their wealth, free of wants, having the money to get anything they want, satisfy their every whim. Now they're spoiled even more, with their tax breaks. And they haven't done a damn thing about "creating jobs."

    So the deal's off. Time for them to give up their tax breaks and start contributing to whittling down the massive govt. debt, amassed because of them, pretty much.
    How did he get rich?

  22. #122
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    Angry We need to reverse the trend into deeper debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    The problem was there long before Bush cut taxes and revoking those tax cuts won't solve it. I'm not a Tea Party advocate and Michelle and Sarah in the WH is unimaginable to me just as it is to those of you I swap insults with here. From time to time though, I actually read the "crazy" things the Tea Party advocates say and they just don't seem all that insane to me. Taking out a Discover to pay the Visa that you used to pay the American Express, now THAT'S insane. The left would have a hell of a lot more credibility with me if I hadn't just finished listening to almost 8 years of them being on the other side of many of the issues.
    I'm sure we can all agree on that. Picking sides, like a baseball game won't accomplish anything. There's plenty of blame to go around, ok? Even I'll admit that! Fact is, however, Clinton left Bush with a surplus, fer chris sake, and Bush gave it away! To the rich, to two wars in places far away that had nothing to do with American security! He should have paid down the debt. Congress should have paid down the debt. But what did they do? Continued borrowing! Going deeper into debt while giving money away to the richest people in the country!! WTF!!!

    It's payback time. I'm sure we can all agree on that, too. A balanced approach is the overwhelming choice of the American people, in poll after poll. Raise revenue. Ok cut everybody's tax breaks! Reagan raised taxes and the economy forged ahead in its recovery from the recession in 1979-81. And reduce spending. End the hemorrage of dollars into the bank accounts of corrupt govts. we're fighting to prop up! Then reduce spending over time, so as not to sabotage the fragile economy. That should do it. Maybe then we can all get along.

  23. #123
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    By using his head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    How did he get rich?
    He applied his intelligence, earned his place in the best educational institutions, championed the common man, earned a seat in congress, and wrote two best selling books! He satisfied the American dream touted as religion by conservatives: work hard and you will succeed! That should be a lesson for us all, even those hypocrits like Bachman et.al., who gladly take money from the govt. while cursing it.

    They remind me of certain "nig*ers you love to hate," I knew in ETX.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 07-28-2011 at 01:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    He applied his intelligence, earned his place in the best educational institutions, championed the common man, earned a seat in congress, and wrote two best selling books! He satisfied the American dream touted as religion by conservatives: work hard and you will succeed! That should be a lesson for us all, even those hypocrits like Bachman et.al., who gladly take money from the govt. while cursing it.

    They remind me of certain "nig*ers you love to hate," I knew in ETX.
    I resent that last part. The rest of it is vintage.

  25. #125
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    I wasn't referring to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
    I resent that last part. The rest of it is vintage.
    I just find someone like Bachman as hypocritical as the proud welfare recipient, "playing the system," getting all he can out of the govt. If Bachman truly hated govt. handouts, she would have a bad taste in her mouth taking them for her husband's business. She's no different than the sassy nigrah taking your money then stabbing you in the back. No moral principles here.

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