Kloden question

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  • 07-28-2009
    dasho
    Kloden question
    In your opinion, could Kloden have finished in 3rd place instaed of Lance? He seemed to do good all around - a decent TT and pretty strong in the mountains even though he did a fair amount of pulling.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasho
    In your opinion, could Kloden have finished in 3rd place instaed of Lance? He seemed to do good all around - a decent TT and pretty strong in the mountains even though he did a fair amount of pulling.

    Sure he could have, as could F. Schleck, or Wiggens. All three of them were more or less on par given the contingencies of the race. Nibali looked the same level as well until he rode that disastrous, subpar TT.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Of course.

    Not to beat a dead horse but had Contador not attacked, riding the Schlecks above Lance/Kloden, a real possibility of an Astana 1/2/3 was in place.

    Plus, as Dwayne mentioned, Frank or Wiggo could have made it as well.

    The only two guys that were head and shoulders above the rest were Andy and Alberto. the rest of the podium was up for grabs.
  • 07-28-2009
    den bakker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    The only two guys that were head and shoulders above the rest were Andy and Alberto. the rest of the podium was up for grabs.

    Makes you wonder how 1/2/3 for astana was a real possibiity then.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by den bakker
    Makes you wonder how 1/2/3 for astana was a real possibiity then.

    I don't get it, people are make-believing A. Schleck didn't exist. It was the Schlecks who put over 2 minutes into Armstrong that day, Contador did all of 30 seconds, if that, of work until the Shlecks caught him and he saw he had dropped Kloden. How long were they off the front 45 minutes or more I would bet?

    How many minutes could A. Schleck have put into Armstrong/Kloden on the Ventoux if he had just ridden instead of waiting repeatedly for his brother?

    It's like people didn't even watch the race. I can only imagine years from now people talking about how Contador screwed Astana out of a 1-2-3 and it will be a complete myth.
  • 07-28-2009
    weltyed
    really?
    if contador hadnt attacked (lets not get into whether he thought kloden gave him the ok or not), the four of them most likely would have gone over the top together. and most likely finish together. kloden would not have lost time to andy schleck on that stage, and armstrong would not have lost as much as he did.

    but this is all coulda/woulda/shoulda.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by den bakker
    Makes you wonder how 1/2/3 for astana was a real possibiity then.

  • 07-28-2009
    den bakker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by weltyed
    if contador hadnt attacked (lets not get into whether he thought kloden gave him the ok or not), the four of them most likely would have gone over the top together. and most likely finish together. kloden would not have lost time to andy schleck on that stage, and armstrong would not have lost as much as he did.

    but this is all coulda/woulda/shoulda.

    and the schlecks would have pushed kloeden over the mountain instead of attacking.
    jebus.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    I don't get it, people are make-believing A. Schleck didn't exist.

    It's like people didn't even watch the race. I can only imagine years from now people talking about how Contador screwed Astana out of a 1-2-3 and it will be a complete myth.

    Not what I'm saying at all.

    Just that the move by Contador changed the dynamics of the race. Had he not attacked, and popped Kloden, the time gaps would have been different heading into Ventoux.

    Instead of maintaining time, and looking to get Frank 3rd, Andy would have to look to make time and move up to 2nd. Totally different scenario.

    Not saying he couldn't do it. I'm fairly certain Andy would have done it. But it's where the possibility of the 1/2/3 lies.

    It was never a given.....
  • 07-28-2009
    ProRoad
    Andy could have put in more time but would only still be in second, Kloden had a few days of dropping off the pace (however minor), not just the one where conti attacked. It was definitely the conti and andy show, agreed that Nibali is a class act and has a future as a strong overall rider.

    Next year should be great and more exciting without shifty team dynamics.
  • 07-28-2009
    weltyed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by den bakker
    and the schlecks would have pushed kloeden over the mountain instead of attacking.
    jebus.

    there was so little time left for them to attack on the climb. and we all know how they descend. contador attacking revealed kloden was cooked. had contadors attack not happened, i dont believe the schlecks would have launched an attack, fearing contador and kloden would crush them over the top and on the downhill. once they saw kloden couldnt ride and contador had already separated himself, it was two-on-one.

    winner of the stage? esperanto.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by weltyed
    if contador hadnt attacked (lets not get into whether he thought kloden gave him the ok or not), the four of them most likely would have gone over the top together. and most likely finish together. kloden would not have lost time to andy schleck on that stage, and armstrong would not have lost as much as he did.

    but this is all coulda/woulda/shoulda.

    Please explain how Armstrong would have loss less time?

    Why do you think Kloden could have stayed with them, when he couldn't even stay with Armstrong/Nibali when they caught him?

    While the margin between A. Schleck and Kloden was approximately the time he lost that day, what would have stopped A. Shleck from putting time into Kloden on the Ventoux if he had needed to?

    He was dropped and could only come back when the pace slowed, meanwhile A. Schleck and Contador were playing tiddly-winks jumping off the front of the Armstrong group and then waiting for them.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    It was never a given.....

    But the reality was A. Schleck was clearly strong enough to put boat loads of time into Kloden and Armstrong on the Ventoux, so there was no possiblity of an Astana podium.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by weltyed
    there was so little time left for them to attack on the climb. and we all know how they descend.

    I for one have bagged on the Schlecks descending in the past and yet they more or less doubled their advantage over Kloden on the descent. The gap between the Schlecks and Armstrong was more or less the same at the finish as when Armstrong went over the top with Kloden about half-way in between. Kloden went backwards to Armstrong/Nibali while relatively speaking the Schlecks/Contador kept the same advantage over them.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    Please explain how Armstrong would have loss less time?

    Really? What was the time gap from Armstrong to Contador/Kloden/Schlecks before AC's jump? What was it afterwards? They opened a gap because they were attacking...not riding tempo. Had they ridden tempo less time gap would have opened up.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    Why do you think Kloden could have stayed with them, when he couldn't even stay with Armstrong/Nibali when they caught him?

    Because he was cooked from chasing Contador/Schleck by himself.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    But the reality was A. Schleck was clearly strong enough to put boat loads of time into Kloden and Armstrong on the Ventoux, so there was no possiblity of an Astana podium.

    There was clearly a possibility of a 1/2/3. But for that to happen Lance/Kloden needed to be ahead on time hitting Ventoux. That didn't happen so it's a moot point. But it was possible.

    Considering Astana got 2/3rds of the podium, and how Kloden was riding, saying it wasn't possible is a joke.

    It was possible....but not likely.
  • 07-28-2009
    Spunout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    It was possible....but not likely.

    It was not possible. They needed a 3rd GC rider. Kloden was not it.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    Really? What was the time gap from Armstrong to Contador/Kloden/Schlecks before AC's jump?

    It was nearly 2 minutes and I think went up to about 2:30 at the summit but other than Contador's short-lived attack it was all down to the Schlecks, as was the entire descent and run-in to the finish.

    As impressive as Armstrong looked when he dropped Wiggins, he didn't reduce the gap to the front much at all. Nor did Nibali/Armstrong bombing the descent do anything as it was really a case of Kloden going back not so much them going forward.

    Kloden was clearly on the ropes when he was dropped, he lost something like a minute in only a km or two. There was hardly time for him to "exhaust" himself chasing them.

    Regardless, you do agree A. Schleck was toying with them on the Ventoux and could have put minutes into Armstrong/Kloden, no?

    There simply is no scenario to elevate Armstrong/Kloden both to the podium because A. Schleck dropped them at will in the mountains and defended well enough in the TT.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    It was possible....but not likely.

    Sure it was possible if riders had different legs that day, hell Wiggins could have possibly dropped them all and ridden into 2nd place.

    But the tactical considerations prior didn't change those possibilities at all is my point.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Spunout
    It was not possible. They needed a 3rd GC rider. Kloden was not it.

    We'll agree to disagree.
  • 07-28-2009
    dasho
    My point
    To me it seemed Kloden was the stronger rider of the two based on him pulling Lance up the mountains at times.

    If he was indeed stronger, shouldn't he have been second to Contador instead of Lance? He did place second 2 years in a row so he isn't exactly chopped liver.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    It was nearly 2 minutes and I think went up to about 2:30 at the summit but other than Contador's short-lived attack it was all down to the Schlecks, as was the entire descent and run-in to the finish.

    There you go. You asked for an explanation how Lance could lose less time and you stated it in your own words. The gap went up 30 seconds. Point made.

    Plus, the Schlecks weren't going anywhere with Kloden and Contador on their wheels. Contador made the move that revealed Kloden's condition.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    As impressive as Armstrong looked when he dropped Wiggins, he didn't reduce the gap to the front much at all.

    But he did make progress. Couple that with the above mentioned 30 seconds and that's more time in his favor had Contador not pressed the action.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    Nor did Nibali/Armstrong bombing the descent do anything as it was really a case of Kloden going back not so much them going forward.

    I never said anything about the descent. Damage was done on the uphill.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

    Kloden was clearly on the ropes when he was dropped, he lost something like a minute in only a km or two. There was hardly time for him to "exhaust" himself chasing them.

    Again....dropped by Contador. As far as losing a minute in a km or two as how much time he'd have lost had Contador sat still. Plus, as far as no time to exhaust himself he was still riding wasn't he? As long as you're pedaling you're working. He didn't just get off and walk. And certainly didn't sit up for Armstrong. So he was working.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

    Regardless, you do agree A. Schleck was toying with them on the Ventoux and could have put minutes into Armstrong/Kloden, no?

    I agree Andy had them dead to rights on Ventoux. As far as how much time he was going to put it's hard to say. Plus, had the lost time not happened who's to say how much time he'd have to make. That's where I see how things could have been different.

    Lance is a moot point. He finished on the podium. The time gap to Kloden is what's in question. Had he crossed the summit with Contador/Schlecks that day we'd have a different set of circumstances on Ventoux.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasho
    To me it seemed Kloden was the stronger rider of the two based on him pulling Lance up the mountains at times.

    If he was indeed stronger, shouldn't he have been second to Contador instead of Lance? He did place second 2 years in a row so he isn't exactly chopped liver.

    Some riders are happy working for others (e.g. Igor Gonzalez de Galdeono (sp?)) always looked like a potential contender, I think he might have even finished 2nd in a GT at one point. That brings a lot of pressure, and perhaps requires risks, that some riders don't want.

    Look at Popovych, Cioni and Zubeldia, by all reconning they should have been contendors given the good results they had in their youth, but for whatever reason they never did much of anything and became gregarios.
  • 07-28-2009
    svrider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    Sure it was possible if riders had different legs that day, hell Wiggins could have possibly dropped them all and ridden into 2nd place.

    Thats basically my point. Kloden was riding well enough that it wasn't out of the realm of the possible.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry
    But the tactical considerations prior didn't change those possibilities at all is my point.

    I'll agree to disagree here. Had they played their cards a little differently the time gaps would have been different. Not saying they would have changed things though. Andy was determined on Ventoux....and strong enough to pull it off. So it was a long shot.

    For the record I'm no Contador hater. I don't fault him for any of his moves during the race. Just that from a team perspective I would have played the cards differently.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    "You asked for an explanation how Lance could lose less time and you stated it in your own words. The gap went up 30 seconds. Point made."

    Except it was the Schlecks who continued to extend the gap, not Contador. Unless you think he opened up a 30 second gap in one little jump.

    "Lance is a moot point. He finished on the podium."

    Again, if you give Kloden the time he supposedly lost thanks to Contador, it knocks Armstrong off the podium. There is no way that one little dig by Contador accounts for the time gap back to Armstrong from A. Schleck.

    Neither Armstrong or Kloden had the legs to stop A. Schleck from taking 2nd place.
  • 07-28-2009
    Dwayne Barry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by svrider
    Thats basically my point. Kloden was riding well enough that it wasn't out of the realm of the possible.




    I'll agree to disagree here. Had they played their cards a little differently the time gaps would have been different. Not saying they would have changed things though. Andy was determined on Ventoux....and strong enough to pull it off. So it was a long shot.

    For the record I'm no Contador hater. I don't fault him for any of his moves during the race. Just that from a team perspective I would have played the cards differently.

    We are clearly talking about different possiblities :)

    Unless Kloden has a different pair of legs, even if he starts the Ventoux with a 2 minute lead on Shleck, let alone approximately the same time, there was no possibility of him staying ahead of A. Schleck.

    There is simply no way Contador's attack screwed Astana out of podium sweep is my point. Sure we could talk about that at the time but we now know how the riders performed in the TT and on Ventoux, so the reality was there was no possiblity of a podium regardless of whether Cantador's attack dropped Kloden or he who was going to hang on otherwise.