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  1. #1
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    USPS's Exodus From the Vuelta

    I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this but since the incident with Hamilton, more and USPS riders have began pulling out of the Vuelta, It doesn't make sense for a team which is built arround the Grand Tours to be loosing riders at this rate. It just fuels my belief that Postal is runnign one of the smoothest and most secretaive doping programs in pro cycling. Armstrong is a once a year rider and in light of stricter doping controls has been racing less and less. Now that a HUGE name rider such as Hamilton has a Official doping charge on his record it would make sense for Postal to start pulling their riders out of major competitions, and then wait for the off season and go back to the lab to make sure their designer drugs are not going to be detected. I just want to know what others opinions are reggarding this and what you think of this 'coincidence'...

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    Who has pulled out. I've noticed mostly T-Mobile riders exiting and most of them before the Hamilton results were announced. Though Vino pulled out today.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this but since the incident with Hamilton, more and USPS riders have began pulling out of the Vuelta, It doesn't make sense for a team which is built arround the Grand Tours to be loosing riders at this rate. It just fuels my belief that Postal is runnign one of the smoothest and most secretaive doping programs in pro cycling. Armstrong is a once a year rider and in light of stricter doping controls has been racing less and less. Now that a HUGE name rider such as Hamilton has a Official doping charge on his record it would make sense for Postal to start pulling their riders out of major competitions, and then wait for the off season and go back to the lab to make sure their designer drugs are not going to be detected. I just want to know what others opinions are reggarding this and what you think of this 'coincidence'...
    You say that this is your belief! Thats fine and your entitled. However, what facts do you have that they are doping? I hope there is a point here besides riders pulling out!

  4. #4
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    If it is your belief that "Postal is runnign one of the smoothest and most secretaive doping programs in pro cycling," what does it matter what anyone else thinks? It would be a waste of time for anyone to argue with you.

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    golly you are right

    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this but since the incident with Hamilton, more and USPS riders have began pulling out of the Vuelta, It doesn't make sense for a team which is built arround the Grand Tours to be loosing riders at this rate. It just fuels my belief that Postal is runnign one of the smoothest and most secretaive doping programs in pro cycling. Armstrong is a once a year rider and in light of stricter doping controls has been racing less and less. Now that a HUGE name rider such as Hamilton has a Official doping charge on his record it would make sense for Postal to start pulling their riders out of major competitions, and then wait for the off season and go back to the lab to make sure their designer drugs are not going to be detected. I just want to know what others opinions are reggarding this and what you think of this 'coincidence'...

    Landis pulled out today after seeing that he was 23 minutes down and NOT A SOUL in postal has a GC chance. You might wantto also note, Landis lost SEVERAL minutes yesterday as well, might be that he was seeing the writing on the wall. Looks like it was time to go.

    HOW this relates to aliens and doping, I have no idea. Doubtless, you will inform the unknowing masses......
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this but since the incident with Hamilton, more and USPS riders have began pulling out of the Vuelta, It doesn't make sense for a team which is built arround the Grand Tours to be loosing riders at this rate. It just fuels my belief that Postal is runnign one of the smoothest and most secretaive doping programs in pro cycling. Armstrong is a once a year rider and in light of stricter doping controls has been racing less and less. Now that a HUGE name rider such as Hamilton has a Official doping charge on his record it would make sense for Postal to start pulling their riders out of major competitions, and then wait for the off season and go back to the lab to make sure their designer drugs are not going to be detected. I just want to know what others opinions are reggarding this and what you think of this 'coincidence'...

    You are aware aren't you that riders are subject to out-of-competition testing? LA, and doubtless others on USPS, are given surprise tests at various times throughout the year, not only at races. To say that your "theory" is based on grossly flawed logic would be an understatement. I hope that you are never allowed to perform jury duty!

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbski
    You are aware aren't you that riders are subject to out-of-competition testing? LA, and doubtless others on USPS, are given surprise tests at various times throughout the year, not only at races. To say that your "theory" is based on grossly flawed logic would be an understatement. I hope that you are never allowed to perform jury duty!

    Does anyone else read the news and that Floyd and a few others have been ill for the past few days...thus almost falling over 2 days ago and now gone...is this a gossip column or a message board

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbski
    You are aware aren't you that riders are subject to out-of-competition testing? LA, and doubtless others on USPS, are given surprise tests at various times throughout the year, not only at races. To say that your "theory" is based on grossly flawed logic would be an understatement. I hope that you are never allowed to perform jury duty!
    I do know that athletes are tested out of competition, however, this is the responsibility of the nation which he is liscenced in... so Lance and the other American Posties are tested by the USCF and US Olympic Comittee not the UCI. Therefor the best way to evaide the UCI doping control is not to race at UCI sanctioned races, exactly what he's doing.. well not racing at all. One of you asked for my evidence, here is some of the proof that Armstrong, along with other top riders are doping. Firstly, all riders who make it to the professional ranks has natural talent, of those there will be a group with tramendous natural tallent. It is physically impossible for an athlete such as Lance no matter how naturally talented he is and how 'smart' he trains to compete with athletes taking performance enhancers. Last year he was able to beat David Millar in the time trials, Millar is a heavier rider more suited to the time trial than Lance, has tramendous natural tallent as proved when he won the white jersey. To further his abiltiy he has admitted to taking EPO throughout the 2003 season. How then is Lance able to beat David if he is clean and Millar is doped, a clean all rounder beating the worlds best doped up time trialist, in the time trial, it just doesn't make sense. Unless Lance is doped there is no way he should be beating Millar and still be clean. Also in 1999 Lance tested positive for steriods in the Tour, however after the positive test was announced a doctors note seemed to appear. Firstly that note should not have been valid as a athlete is required to apply for a Theriputic Exemption 21 days before the event, and documentation must be presented prior to the sample being handed over, finially a topical ointment should not have produced the concentrations needed for a positive result unless Lance was using the stuff by the tube. Finially my last point, Lance's comeback from cancer came a little bit too quickly, it is a well known fact in the cycling world that it takes 5 years to fully develop a cyclist to his/her physical potential, now before you jump on me saying that Lance was world class before his cancer consider that the cancer robbed him of all his fitness both arobic and muscular. It doesn't make sense that he made a natural comeback within 2.5years from when he started trainign to when he won the tour, also consider that the first year and a half he wasn't signed by a professional team and he could no longer be tested by US Olympic. There is no possible way a athlete could come from nothing to tour de france champ in 2.5 years, only now should he be reaching his full potential... Let me hear what you think i know its not what everyone likes in there heros but FACE THE FACTS THE PRO PELOTON IS DOPED, LANCE IS NO EXCEPTION

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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    It is physically impossible for an athlete such as Lance no matter how naturally talented he is and how 'smart' he trains to compete with athletes taking performance enhancers... Let me hear what you think i know its not what everyone likes in there heros but FACE THE FACTS THE PRO PELOTON IS DOPED, LANCE IS NO EXCEPTION
    see, 'evidence' is a collection of facts, not a bunch of unsupported opinion and cicurmstantial evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coreyb
    see, 'evidence' is a collection of facts, not a bunch of unsupported opinion and cicurmstantial evidence.
    Lance has only tested positive and that is the only hard fact that I have, I'll admit it. However the manner in which the doctors note was presented doesn't comply with article 15.49 in the UCI antidoping handbook. And that test should have been positive and Armstrong should have tested positive and been thrown out of the Tour, and he would have been yet another rider gone for doping. I'll admit that the facts I have given are circumstantial however a lot of his activities raise suspicion and makes you wonder, thats all I'm trying to say no more no less. By no means am i trying to say that these are grounds for a doping conviction just anomilies that may suggest that Lance isn't the man he has been made out to be

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    By no means am i trying to say that these are grounds for a doping conviction just anomilies that may suggest that Lance isn't the man he has been made out to be
    Actually I think your original point was that Posties were pulling out of the Vuelta to avoid drug tests. You ever done a stage race? How many have you done? You finished all of em? I've finished a couple and dropped out of a couple. Am I a doper in your eyes?

    Your "reasons" for your arguments are plausible, but are pretty much all speculation and therefore, weak.
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  12. #12
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    Nice JP

    keep him on subject. Original accusation was based on Vuelta and USPS 'pullout'.
    wow and Fassa pullout last years TdF must be doping related and....lemme see 9 guys in close quarters eating same food and sharing same air (bus), ever been on a plane? 1 gets sick, what's the odds the others do? and if it's food related those odds go way up. I'm sure we all have the BBQ gone bad story where half the party gets the green apple two step and we weren't even taxing our sytems to the limit. But since we are basing things on unsupported conjecture I'm gonna say based on your original post you have Ken Dolls that you have hand made T-Mobile kits and have Jan posters on your wall like a young girl has pix of (insert latest teen idol here) for your ononastic pleasure. Look it's okay to cry like a little girl when your hero loses, I feel your pain...not really. I'm sorry I'm not so ad hominum to trolls normally but since you (as a group) won't quit I'm going to now discourage the practice w/ verbal abuse.

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    You know, this "Lance (or fill in the name of suspect rider) is doped and I can prove it" is so damn old! You don't know squat! You aren't there with the riders or teams. Your logic about a non-doped Lance not being able to beat a doped Millar is flawed at best. You have to assume that LA and Millar would be fairly equal without dope and that dope would put Millar just that much ahead of LA. Well, guess what? They might not be equal. One guy just might be better than the other. Things in sport don't always turn out the way they appear on paper. If it did the underdog team/preson would never win and there would be no need to play the games or hold the race. And your statement that "It is physically impossible for an athlete such as Lance no matter how naturally talented he is and how 'smart' he trains to compete with athletes taking performance enhancers." is so lacking in fact that it is just silly. You assume that, but you have no proof. Just because you believe it does not make it a fact. Give a rest will ya!
    Last edited by ivanthetrble; 09-23-2004 at 03:09 PM.

  14. #14
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    wow, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    I do know that athletes are tested out of competition, however, this is the responsibility of the nation which he is liscenced in... so Lance and the other American Posties are tested by the USCF and US Olympic Comittee not the UCI. Therefor the best way to evaide the UCI doping control is not to race at UCI sanctioned races, exactly what he's doing.. well not racing at all. One of you asked for my evidence, here is some of the proof that Armstrong, along with other top riders are doping. Firstly, all riders who make it to the professional ranks has natural talent, of those there will be a group with tramendous natural tallent. It is physically impossible for an athlete such as Lance no matter how naturally talented he is and how 'smart' he trains to compete with athletes taking performance enhancers. Last year he was able to beat David Millar in the time trials, Millar is a heavier rider more suited to the time trial than Lance, has tramendous natural tallent as proved when he won the white jersey. To further his abiltiy he has admitted to taking EPO throughout the 2003 season. How then is Lance able to beat David if he is clean and Millar is doped, a clean all rounder beating the worlds best doped up time trialist, in the time trial, it just doesn't make sense. Unless Lance is doped there is no way he should be beating Millar and still be clean. Also in 1999 Lance tested positive for steriods in the Tour, however after the positive test was announced a doctors note seemed to appear. Firstly that note should not have been valid as a athlete is required to apply for a Theriputic Exemption 21 days before the event, and documentation must be presented prior to the sample being handed over, finially a topical ointment should not have produced the concentrations needed for a positive result unless Lance was using the stuff by the tube. Finially my last point, Lance's comeback from cancer came a little bit too quickly, it is a well known fact in the cycling world that it takes 5 years to fully develop a cyclist to his/her physical potential, now before you jump on me saying that Lance was world class before his cancer consider that the cancer robbed him of all his fitness both arobic and muscular. It doesn't make sense that he made a natural comeback within 2.5years from when he started trainign to when he won the tour, also consider that the first year and a half he wasn't signed by a professional team and he could no longer be tested by US Olympic. There is no possible way a athlete could come from nothing to tour de france champ in 2.5 years, only now should he be reaching his full potential... Let me hear what you think i know its not what everyone likes in there heros but FACE THE FACTS THE PRO PELOTON IS DOPED, LANCE IS NO EXCEPTION
    Lance was using a cream that shoped up on a test that proved to be a level in the area of 1/100th of the actual ammount that is said to be illegal.

    The problem is that near science promotes the problems as well as the bozo witch hunters like yourself.

    You are not medically trained. You are barely an athlete and yet you claim to know something about what you saw in a tabloid while in line at the supermarket. Doping is not and will not be a magic bullet, you actually have to have talent. Ironically, most of the folks who make the claims against these folks are folks who lack talent and still doped. Are YOU in that category?????
    This old anvil has cracked alot of hammers

  15. #15
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    sad reality

    after all the positives in the last months i think they are all doped up. lance is the fastest and would be the fastest if they were all clean too. but there not........

    they have gotten around the tests for a long time. the new epo/blood test does seem to have taken the riders by surprise. 6 more rider are being said to have tested positive in spain. hey, i love bike racing whether they are doped or not.

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    Andrew, fancy yourself an expert in Cancer care do you?
    you say Lance can't come back in 2.5 years right after battling the disease?
    perhaps you have had one form of cancer that gives you some specific knowledge, maybe you have been thru radiation treatments or Chemo? Cancer has struck my family not once but twice. I've seen it first hand, it nearly took my mother from me at the age of 50. Trust me man, once you survive that, you can do anything. I'm not trying to offend you, but please, unless you are a oncologist, please, shut up.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    I do know that athletes are tested out of competition, however, this is the responsibility of the nation which he is liscenced in... so Lance and the other American Posties are tested by the USCF and US Olympic Comittee not the UCI. Therefor the best way to evaide the UCI doping control is not to race at UCI sanctioned races, exactly what he's doing.. well not racing at all. One of you asked for my evidence, here is some of the proof that Armstrong, along with other top riders are doping. Firstly, all riders who make it to the professional ranks has natural talent, of those there will be a group with tramendous natural tallent. It is physically impossible for an athlete such as Lance no matter how naturally talented he is and how 'smart' he trains to compete with athletes taking performance enhancers. Last year he was able to beat David Millar in the time trials, Millar is a heavier rider more suited to the time trial than Lance, has tramendous natural tallent as proved when he won the white jersey. To further his abiltiy he has admitted to taking EPO throughout the 2003 season. How then is Lance able to beat David if he is clean and Millar is doped, a clean all rounder beating the worlds best doped up time trialist, in the time trial, it just doesn't make sense. Unless Lance is doped there is no way he should be beating Millar and still be clean. Also in 1999 Lance tested positive for steriods in the Tour, however after the positive test was announced a doctors note seemed to appear. Firstly that note should not have been valid as a athlete is required to apply for a Theriputic Exemption 21 days before the event, and documentation must be presented prior to the sample being handed over, finially a topical ointment should not have produced the concentrations needed for a positive result unless Lance was using the stuff by the tube. Finially my last point, Lance's comeback from cancer came a little bit too quickly, it is a well known fact in the cycling world that it takes 5 years to fully develop a cyclist to his/her physical potential, now before you jump on me saying that Lance was world class before his cancer consider that the cancer robbed him of all his fitness both arobic and muscular. It doesn't make sense that he made a natural comeback within 2.5years from when he started trainign to when he won the tour, also consider that the first year and a half he wasn't signed by a professional team and he could no longer be tested by US Olympic. There is no possible way a athlete could come from nothing to tour de france champ in 2.5 years, only now should he be reaching his full potential... Let me hear what you think i know its not what everyone likes in there heros but FACE THE FACTS THE PRO PELOTON IS DOPED, LANCE IS NO EXCEPTION
    I must agree with some other posters here that you really do speak as if you have some type of medical background! Just to shoot an easy hole in your "no possible way a[sic] athlete could come from nothing to tour de france champ in 2.5 years", one of the USA's greatest milers, Steve Scott, overcame testicular cancer and still holds records as a Masters miler (post-cancer) as well as having run the most sub-four minute miles. You really are putting together a "case" against USPS/Armstrong out of bits and pieces of circumstantial evidence and "suspicious" behavior. I, for one, have seen first-hand someone ground down into nothing and killed by cancer and NO PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG in the history of mankind could dope LA to TdF champ. General agreement on EPO states that it can give an athlete roughly a 4% boost in performance which I will agree could be very helpful when, as the Man says, "every second counts", but to credit his post-cancer comeback entirely to illegal drugs is just foolish. I am not a big LA fan and have my own questions about his (and others') involvement in doping but your uninformed prattling-on about USPS/LA is downright clueless gossip and armchair quarterbacking at its worst. Please, write your congressman or something or just ride your bike or visit conspiracy websites...

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    Quote Originally Posted by backon2wheels
    Andrew, fancy yourself an expert in Cancer care do you?
    you say Lance can't come back in 2.5 years right after battling the disease?
    perhaps you have had one form of cancer that gives you some specific knowledge, maybe you have been thru radiation treatments or Chemo? Cancer has struck my family not once but twice. I've seen it first hand, it nearly took my mother from me at the age of 50. Trust me man, once you survive that, you can do anything. I'm not trying to offend you, but please, unless you are a oncologist, please, shut up.
    I'm just a regular guy, I ride a bike.
    Kyle.
    My point about Lance's comeback from cancer was not a statement saying that he did not have the willpower or the desire to comeback from cancer, his having cancer was just disease that happened to strip him of his cycling, I also do not dbout the fact that a athlete can be capable of coming back from cancer to become better than he ever was before, however those things take time. To build a professional cyclist takes time no matter how determined you are, its not a question of mental strength, its basically that the body can not be trained to a level needed to win in the pro peloton in under 5 years... It is a well accepted fact that a athlete requires a least 2 years of steady base inorder to build a program on let alone race the Grand Tours, I'm also not trying to offend people by stating that Lance is the only rider who is doped in the pro peloton, in reality the majority are on some sort of "juice".

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    Majority on juice

    using your quote and your 'evidence' then it must explain why 62 riders have dropped from the Vuelta. They are all on drugs. Vino, Floyd, etc.. all dopers though every winning rider is tested (which would qualify the whole USPS team since they won both TdF and Vuelta TTT) and somehow their superior masking technology is able to fool the UCI, TdF and Vuelta testers for 6 freaking years!!!!!! (Since Heras was top contender in last 3 VDE, as well as Levi 3 YA) It's amazing that they can beat the system while others get caught.....why, I know because they are an American Team and American Teams couldn't possibly better the European Teams. Look Andrew since you've spouted no 'evidence', no science and your arguement can be classified as having 'waste expulsive orfices at both ends' go back to your sewing machine. I'm sure your Ken Dolls will need new 05 T-Mob kits. I was reflecting on my ride home last night that maybe I was too harsh, but then I realized my conjecture carries as much merit as yours so I will continue. Do I think dope exists? yup. Do I think the entire peloton is juiced? highly unlikely. do I think certain teams have superior masking agents? No, they'd be on the black market easily.
    Look at the Olympics, who got busted? In majority Atheletes from smaller East Bloc countries that had organized state run doping and now lack the national organization to test it's top athletes. Every Ol. athlete from major countries gets tested at qualification, do some sneak through, yes, some medaled, some got caught, some skated. That's the way it goes but we might as well condemn every athlete based on your logic.

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    furthermore

    following your logic, fear of being caught is what made Virenque retire. after all, knowing his history.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie
    using your quote and your 'evidence' then it must explain why 62 riders have dropped from the Vuelta. They are all on drugs. Vino, Floyd, etc.. all dopers though every winning rider is tested (which would qualify the whole USPS team since they won both TdF and Vuelta TTT) and somehow their superior masking technology is able to fool the UCI, TdF and Vuelta testers for 6 freaking years!!!!!! (Since Heras was top contender in last 3 VDE, as well as Levi 3 YA) It's amazing that they can beat the system while others get caught.....why, I know because they are an American Team and American Teams couldn't possibly better the European Teams. Look Andrew since you've spouted no 'evidence', no science and your arguement can be classified as having 'waste expulsive orfices at both ends' go back to your sewing machine. I'm sure your Ken Dolls will need new 05 T-Mob kits. I was reflecting on my ride home last night that maybe I was too harsh, but then I realized my conjecture carries as much merit as yours so I will continue. Do I think dope exists? yup. Do I think the entire peloton is juiced? highly unlikely. do I think certain teams have superior masking agents? No, they'd be on the black market easily.
    Look at the Olympics, who got busted? In majority Atheletes from smaller East Bloc countries that had organized state run doping and now lack the national organization to test it's top athletes. Every Ol. athlete from major countries gets tested at qualification, do some sneak through, yes, some medaled, some got caught, some skated. That's the way it goes but we might as well condemn every athlete based on your logic.
    I wasn't meaning to say that every rider who ever abandons a race is fearing being caught by doping control, I know racing and i know there are many reasons that a rider will drop out of a tour, however, the point that I wanted to raise is that at grand tours USPS has almost a perfect record of getting there riders to the finish line and I can't remember the last time they had a team leader drop out of the race because of fatigue or illness. also I am not meaning to jump all over lance, do I think Jan is doped... yes, Basso... forsure. I'm just saying that lance is no different. Are you also saying that at this day and age it is impossible to evade doping control? If that is your logic you have some serious research to do, look at Marion Jones, she was caught using steriods only by chance, had the sample steriod not been sent to USAF they wouldn't have been able to develo the THG(I think that was the drug's name) test and she would more than likley still be using the drug. Confidis, they used drugs all year and yet how many athletes were picked up by doping control... the only reason was through the team's investigation by french police were they able to find evidence... Just a question are you to proud to admit that your beloved home team could possibly be running a doping program, do you think lance is sponsored by a pharmaseutical just because they helped him 8years ago... i think they could be doing a lot more than just providing cancer treatment...

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    Jury Duty!

    I hope that you are never allowed to perform jury duty! .....Now that is halarious. Of course I'm sure Scott Peterson would love to have an idiot like that on his jury. I can see him now, "Well I believe Lacy jumped off the Golden Gate bridge and Scott had nothing to do with her death."

    Or maybe he was on the OJ jury......
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBunny
    I hope that you are never allowed to perform jury duty! .....Now that is halarious. Of course I'm sure Scott Peterson would love to have an idiot like that on his jury. I can see him now, "Well I believe Lacy jumped off the Golden Gate bridge and Scott had nothing to do with her death."

    Or maybe he was on the OJ jury......
    .
    Is it just me or are all of you a bunch of blind faithed red necks who can not even acknowledge the fact that your beloved hero may not be clean, and that people can seem good on the outside and still decieve you. Doping is a major problem in cycling today... in just this year alone 3 Juniors in Europe have died while racing from "unexplained causes." Are we to assume that they had some un-explained unknown condition; well becuase they're Juniors they could never dope they aren't even out of their teens... well fess up the sport is doped, the cheats are not who we'd like them to be its not pretty and its not beautiful, but its part of the sport we have to accept... I'm not here to call everybody cheats with no eveidence, every time a athlete tests positive it pains me to no end to see that the sport cant be clean and pure but we have to face the facts and realise that bike racing is no longer just riding a bike there is a lot more a stake and people who are willing to do anything for victory

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    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    Is it just me or are all of you a bunch of blind faithed red necks
    ad hominem attacks do nothing to support your argument. some here are actually open minded individuals who seek to find out the truth, rather than piecing together a bunch of circumstantial facts to arbitrarily deduce that the only reason a pharmaceutical company is sponsoring lance is because they are providing the drugs.

  25. #25
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    977
    Quote Originally Posted by _andrew_
    ... To build a professional cyclist takes time no matter how determined you are, its not a question of mental strength, its basically that the body can not be trained to a level needed to win in the pro peloton in under 5 years... It is a well accepted fact that a athlete requires a least 2 years of steady base inorder to build a program on let alone race the Grand Tours, ...
    You just miss one point - you need much less time to rebuild level that you had once, doesn't matter how low ypour current level is. So 2.5 year seems very reasonable from this point of view.

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