+1 vs. DNF vs. placing

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  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    +1 vs. DNF vs. placing
    So, this is starting to irritate me. There does not seem to be a consistent approach used by referees when it comes to lapped or pulled riders. Some keep you in finishing order and give you a +1 for being 1 lap down to the leaders at the end, some give you a placing compared to everyone else, and some give you a DNF.

    Now to me, DNF means I had a mechanical or other situation and I could not complete the race. I was "unable to finish". In my mind that doesn't mean "I was unable to finish on the same lap as the leaders". Am I totally off base?

    Can anyone shed some light on this, preferrably an official or ref. I'd like to be educated enough to understand the approaches and argue my points if needed.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    My cross guys pointed me in the right direction:

    5G. Finish
    5G1. Any rider lapped before the last lap shall leave the race
    the next time they cross the finish line (unless stated
    differently prior to the race); and shall be given a place.
    Lapped riders who are permitted to remain in the race will all
    finish on the same lap as the leader and will be placed
    according to the number of laps they are down and then their
    position at the finish.
    5G2. In championship events a rider who is lapped during the
    final lap of the race shall be stopped at the beginning of the
    finish line area and shall be classified in accordance with their
    placing without crossing the finish line.
    https://www.usacycling.org/forms/USAC_rulebook-5.pdf
  • 09-28-2010
    AdamM
    I'm not an official, but in my experience you'll find most do try to score everyone, but after you race a while, you'll find that once you get past the top 10 or so places it doesn't matter that much whether you sprinted hard that 21st place, DNP, or DNF. You know where you finished and the other racers all understand the system too.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    True, I know I finished. But if it is a rule, shouldn't it be enforced and applied consistently?

    In my most recent situation, it was a field of less than 50 guys. I got lapped, on the final lap, but got a DNF. I know I beat a handful of guys. I know where I placed, but it is the principle of it. I finished the race. I didn't abandon. I deserve to have that placing be "official". You can't just lump everyone who "sucks" that day into one category. It isn't fair to me or my competitors.

    I hold no delusions that I was competitive in this race or had a shot of putting a medal around my neck. That doesn't mean I worked any less hard given my ability to compete or pay the same entry fee or wake up at the crack of dawn to drive to the race like everyone else.

    I understand officials have their hands full with racers streaking by, but that doesn't mean we the racers don't deserve fair and consistent treatment. If the system doesn't really work, fix it.
  • 09-28-2010
    QuattroCreep
    I agree with AdamM. The only time I can see it mattering is when you are in a cat5 race and you want your 10 starts to move up.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    DNF is still a start, right? So not sure I see your train of thought on this. Cat5 upgrade isn't 10 starts and finishes. Only 10 starts. Technically I could ride the first lap and drop out 10 times in a row and stil have it count.
  • 09-28-2010
    HIMEHEEM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    DNF is still a start, right? So not sure I see your train of thought on this. Cat5 upgrade isn't 10 starts and finishes. Only 10 starts. Technically I could ride the first lap and drop out 10 times in a row and stil have it count.

    This is correct.
  • 09-28-2010
    Keeping up with Junior
    D F L
    Saw a flyer on a coworkers desk for the youth football league with a big logo on front that was DFL. I could barely control my snickering. Turns out is stood for Developmental Football League rather than Dead F'n Last.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    ...I know where I placed, but it is the principle of it. I finished the race. I didn't abandon. I deserve to have that placing be "official"...

    Well if you know where you placed does it really matter? So you want everyone who finished before you to have to stand around and wait because you want the officials to hold all the results until they can score whoever comes in DFL? Early on it frustrated me too when the placings stopped a few riders beyond the money spots. Then I realized that with a quick count of the field from the back of the sprint I could pretty well guess my place, at least close enough to put a number on it and use for whatever training incentive I needed.

    Be careful what you wish for to. If you are a pr!ck about it and start demanding the officials follow the letter of the rulebook then they will. All of a sudden you will find yourself getting pulled from the race when you are lapped rather than being allowed to stay in the race and gain some experience and training that will help you improve in the future.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    I understand officials have their hands full...

    Yet, you are so busy training for your spot off the back that you cant be bothered to read the rulebook in advance or even look something up when you have a question?
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Keeping up with Junior
    Saw a flyer on a coworkers desk for the youth football league with a big logo on front that was DFL. I could barely control my snickering. Turns out is stood for Developmental Football League rather than Dead F'n Last.

    Well if you know where you placed does it really matter? So you want everyone who finished before you to have to stand around and wait because you want the officials to hold all the results until they can score whoever comes in DFL? Early on it frustrated me too when the placings stopped a few riders beyond the money spots. Then I realized that with a quick count of the field from the back of the sprint I could pretty well guess my place, at least close enough to put a number on it and use for whatever training incentive I needed.

    Be careful what you wish for to. If you are a pr!ck about it and start demanding the officials follow the letter of the rulebook then they will. All of a sudden you will find yourself getting pulled from the race when you are lapped rather than being allowed to stay in the race and gain some experience and training that will help you improve in the future.

    Yet, you are so busy training for your spot off the back that you cant be bothered to read the rulebook in advance or even look something up when you have a question?

    Listen, not trying to be a pr!ck, just trying to get some clarity and come to terms with it for myself. And the thought just occurred to me at work, so no, I didn't do the research on USAC.

    Although technically, the rules I was provided didn't really answer my question. So far, you are really the only one who has. I can definitely see that placing everyone would be time consuming and I certainly wouldn't have the gall to ask to have my 45th place or whatever hold up the results being posted and prizes being handed out to the guys that lapped me. But aren't I being placed as it is or at least a close approximation? So there is no real delay from what I can tell.

    I just don't get using DNF and +1, +2, etc. interchangeably. To me, they have very different meanings. Or is this again a factor of speed. DNF becomes "you finished at least 1 lap off the winning pace" so they don't need to keep track of how many laps each person did? Again, something I think would be easily solved by looking at their score sheet and seeing how many times #72 came through the start/finish. Maybe I am just too idealistic.

    Really I am p!ssed because Crossresults.com scores DNFs differently. :wink5:
  • 09-28-2010
    spade2you
    Yes, it would be nice if you could get scored, but after a while, it's pointless. I agree that there's a certain level of pride for finished despite a big pounding, but trying to keep score with lapped riders becomes a royal pain. However, does the end result really matter? In principal, sure. In reality, nope.

    Like anything else, the officials make the rules. Don't like it? Not much you can do about it. All you can do is change your results by training better.
  • 09-28-2010
    asgelle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Keeping up with Junior
    Be careful what you wish for to. If you are a pr!ck about it and start demanding the officials follow the letter of the rulebook then they will. All of a sudden you will find yourself getting pulled from the race when you are lapped rather than being allowed to stay in the race and gain some experience and training that will help you improve in the future.

    Note that the rules say "out of contention" not lapped. An official could judge a rider 20m off the back of the group is out of contention and pull him or her. And this goes for road races as well as crits.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spade2you
    Yes, it would be nice if you could get scored, but after a while, it's pointless. I agree that there's a certain level of pride for finished despite a big pounding, but trying to keep score with lapped riders becomes a royal pain. However, does the end result really matter? In principal, sure. In reality, nope.

    Like anything else, the officials make the rules. Don't like it? Not much you can do about it. All you can do is change your results by training better.

    I see everyone's point.

    However disagree with the portion in red above. They don't make the rules, they enforce/apply them. The police don't make the laws, they enforce them. If they are not enforcing them properly or in a consistent manner, actions are taken to rectify that. Maybe that is a silly example.

    I guess it is more like a baseball umpire. Some have different strike zones and call balls and strikes differently. I guess I just need to get used to officials having different interpretations of DNF and what it means when applied.
  • 09-28-2010
    asgelle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    However disagree with the portion in red above. They don't make the rules, they enforce/apply them. The police don't make the laws, they enforce them. If they are not enforcing them properly or in a consistent manner, actions are taken to rectify that. Maybe that is a silly example.

    It's not a bad analogy, but you have to realize how much discretion a patrol officer has. It's the same for the race official. We enforce the rules, but by design, there's a lot of room for interpretation.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asgelle
    It's not a bad analogy, but you have to realize how much discretion a patrol officer has. It's the same for the race official. We enforce the rules, but by design, there's a lot of room for interpretation.

    Thanks. I tend to be a yes/no, black/white, right/wrong kind of guy, so that room for interpretation is what I am struggling with.

    In the end, no, it doesn't matter. I know how I placed and how I raced and I know what I need to do to improve, so the feedback is there. And that is the most critical piece.
  • 09-28-2010
    Keeping up with Junior
    Communication
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    They don't make the rules, they enforce/apply them...

    ...I guess I just need to get used to officials having different interpretations of DNF and what it means when applied.

    Do you have the same few officials at all your races?

    Have you talked to the official?

    Find a quiet time when not everyone is pestering the official and explain how your real issue is with Crossresults.com and how the website interprets a DNF. Maybe if the official knows it matters they can change the terminology they use. Keep in mind it might be the organizer submitting the results and not the official. Heck, maybe Crossresults could change their approach to adapt to how the officials are scoring.

    Sounds like you are pretty level headed about this and not flying off the handle or over reacting to some of subtle jabs. Use that same low key approach when communicating and you might get your issue fixed.

    Remember, there are always Triathalons where everyone gets a time, a ribbon and a hug at the end.
  • 09-28-2010
    spade2you
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    I see everyone's point.

    However disagree with the portion in red above. They don't make the rules, they enforce/apply them. The police don't make the laws, they enforce them. If they are not enforcing them properly or in a consistent manner, actions are taken to rectify that. Maybe that is a silly example.

    I guess it is more like a baseball umpire. Some have different strike zones and call balls and strikes differently. I guess I just need to get used to officials having different interpretations of DNF and what it means when applied.

    I see that you're a technicality/principal guy. Ditch the lawyer mentality and get a racer mentality.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Keeping up with Junior
    Do you have the same few officials at all your races?

    Have you talked to the official?

    Find a quiet time when not everyone is pestering the official and explain how your real issue is with Crossresults.com and how the website interprets a DNF. Maybe if the official knows it matters they can change the terminology they use. Keep in mind it might be the organizer submitting the results and not the official. Heck, maybe Crossresults could change their approach to adapt to how the officials are scoring.

    Sounds like you are pretty level headed about this and not flying off the handle or over reacting to some of subtle jabs. Use that same low key approach when communicating and you might get your issue fixed.

    Remember, there are always Triathalons where everyone gets a time, a ribbon and a hug at the end.

    So far in my short racing career (2nd season of cross and I did 8 of my 10 Cat 5 road races this spring/summer) I haven't seen alot of consistency among officiating personnel. But that is a valid suggestion now that I know I am hyper-sensitive to it.

    I could use a hug. Unfortunately I'm not really a swimmer.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spade2you
    I see that you're a technicality/principal guy. Ditch the lawyer mentality and get a racer mentality.

    Thanks for the suggestion. Although I'm not sure this is the place to get into a personality dynamics conversation with a psychologist.
  • 09-28-2010
    spade2you
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    Thanks for the suggestion. Although I'm not sure this is the place to get into a personality dynamics conversation with a psychologist.

    You weren't on the podium. Everything else consists of meaningless details. It's time you stop the analysis and start the HTFU process. Had you trained and ridden harder, we would not be having this discussion.
  • 09-28-2010
    Creakyknees
    The way I see it, any riding I am allowed to do after being dropped is pure courtesy from the officials.

    The way I score it, internally, is once I'm dropped it's as good as DFL; there's no difference in my mind between being last and third from last - we are still a long way from the front.

    If I am dropped and I keep riding, it's either because:
    - That's the only way to get to the car
    - I just want some miles / training


    p.s. https://www.usacycling.org/forms/USAC_rulebook.pdf
  • 09-28-2010
    waldo425
    Around here the officials make it clear that if you get lapped you will most probably get pulled from the race. At the track you get -20 points and a possible ejection from the race.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spade2you
    You weren't on the podium. Everything else consists of meaningless details. It's time you stop the analysis and start the HTFU process. Had you trained and ridden harder, we would not be having this discussion.

    Thanks for the insight and inspiration coach. How much do you charge for such motivation? Geez man, relax. If you'd bothered to ask, you'd find out that I actually felt pretty good about how I road and the result, despite it not being the "extrinsic" reward of being on the podium. I got plenty out of the experience that I can be proud of.
  • 09-28-2010
    krisdrum
    Ok, I'm getting the clear message guys. Appreciate the clarification. I get what I get and I don't get upset.
  • 09-28-2010
    waldo425
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    DNF is still a start, right? So not sure I see your train of thought on this. Cat5 upgrade isn't 10 starts and finishes. Only 10 starts. Technically I could ride the first lap and drop out 10 times in a row and stil have it count.

    Yes, Ive heard of this happening more than once. Some very strong racers from other disciplines (track, cross or mountain) will just show up race a couple laps of a Crash 5 crit and then duck out.
  • 09-28-2010
    Undecided
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krisdrum
    Ok, I'm getting the clear message guys. Appreciate the clarification. I get what I get and I don't get upset.

    Why aren't they giving you a DNP, though, rather than a DNF?