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  1. #1
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    Salt/Electrolyte replacement: when best to take supplements?

    I know I need them, but when should I take them? the night before, imediately before, during, after, or all of the above?

    It is so damn hot and humid here (Hong Kong: 90 degrees+ and 90 percent+ at 5am) and I am losing so much salt through perspiration that my bike looks like a salt lick when the ride is done. I have been adding salt lite to foods, but still have had some cramping (quads, calf, foot, lats) on rides longer than 3 hours. What (and when) is the recommended time and procedure for taking sodium/potassium supplements? One concern is that I don't have enough liquids with me on the bike if I take them mid ride...

    Thanks.
    How many times I gotta say it? it aint a taint, its a gooch...

  2. #2
    Bamboozled by love...
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    Endurolytes

    I've had good success with Endurolytes from e-caps

    http://www.e-caps.com/za/ECP?PAGE=PR...Y&CAT=SUPFUELS

    I typically put 3-4 into each bottle, with my drink mix (use a 50-50 mix of Endurox and Accelerade), and it seems to make a huge difference when the temps are over 80F or so (I don't really bother with them under that temp, unless I'm in for a 4+ hour ride)

    They're not inexpensive, but they do seem to work well for me.

  3. #3
    Every little counts...
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    Pedialyte, from the baby foods section.

    I would drink it after exercise.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spunout
    Pedialyte, from the baby foods section.

    I would drink it after exercise.
    Spunout, how much do you drink after a ride? And is that portion really high in sodium and potassium-I don't understand the amount listed on the bottle as it doesn't "mg" for a measurement of the amounts.

  5. #5
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    Wouldn't a mineral water mixed with e.g. apple juice do the same?

  6. #6
    Call me a Fred
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    How to convert

    Quote Originally Posted by Schneiderguy
    Spunout, how much do you drink after a ride? And is that portion really high in sodium and potassium-I don't understand the amount listed on the bottle as it doesn't "mg" for a measurement of the amounts.
    Pedialyte lists the mEq (milli-equivalent) amounts.

    The equivalent weight of a substance is determined by dividing the molecular weight of an element by its valence.

    Sodium has a molecular weight of 23 and a valence of 1.
    1 mEq of sodium is equal to 23 mg.

    Magnesium has a molecular weight of 24 and a valence of 2.
    1 mEq of magnesium is equal to 12 mg.

    Potassium has a molecular weight, 39 and a valence of 1 .
    1mEq of potassium is equal to 39 mg.
    Last edited by MikeBiker; 06-15-2005 at 06:23 PM.
    Mike

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibaba93
    I know I need them, but when should I take them? the night before, imediately before, during, after, or all of the above?

    It is so damn hot and humid here (Hong Kong: 90 degrees+ and 90 percent+ at 5am) and I am losing so much salt through perspiration that my bike looks like a salt lick when the ride is done. I have been adding salt lite to foods, but still have had some cramping (quads, calf, foot, lats) on rides longer than 3 hours. What (and when) is the recommended time and procedure for taking sodium/potassium supplements? One concern is that I don't have enough liquids with me on the bike if I take them mid ride...

    Thanks.
    My 2 cents

    #1 Don't take them as tablets if you feel you needed added salt to combat cramping mix it with your drink. This evens out the delivery to your stomach and can prevent GI distress.

    #2 Quit salting your food, there is some evidence that daily dietary salt is related to salt loss through sweating. The less you eat the less you sweat out. This may be due to the way sweat glands pull water out of the blood stream but that is speculation on my part.

    #3 Salt loss may or may not tbe the cause of your cramping problems. There is very little understanding of the causes of cramping during prolonged exercise.

  8. #8
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    This might help you....

    Quote Originally Posted by alibaba93
    .......One concern is that I don't have enough liquids with me on the bike if I take them mid ride...
    Thanks.
    You only mentioned sodium/potassium....what about calcium, magnesium, manganese, etc.?? Am I mistaken to assume that you're possibly only taking 2x24oz bottles on these rides (....One concern is that I don't have enough liquids with me on the bike if I take them mid ride....)??? If it's 90F/90%H, then you should be drinking more than the std. 24oz/hour....
    Tips: http://www.e-caps.com/za/ECP?PAGE=TI...0071&AMI=10126
    Cramps: http://www.cptips.com/muspain.htm#muscrmp
    Sodium needs: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/n.../aa030101a.htm
    Avoid sugar in your drink; it'll also be the cause of cramps, especially stomach cramps....if using Gatorade, dilute it by at least 1/2 water....

  9. #9
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    my experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by Tri_Rich
    My 2 cents

    #1 Don't take them as tablets if you feel you needed added salt to combat cramping mix it with your drink. This evens out the delivery to your stomach and can prevent GI distress.

    #2 Quit salting your food, there is some evidence that daily dietary salt is related to salt loss through sweating. The less you eat the less you sweat out. This may be due to the way sweat glands pull water out of the blood stream but that is speculation on my part.

    #3 Salt loss may or may not tbe the cause of your cramping problems. There is very little understanding of the causes of cramping during prolonged exercise.
    I partially disagree, based on the material I've read and my personal experiences, muscle cramping can be attributed to muscle overuse and/or electrolyte depletion. This info. is certainly not set in stone, but there is evidence pointing in that direction. I have completed six ironman distance triathlons. I have cramped, especially during the marathon run leg, to varying degrees in each IM experience. Endurolytes (electolyte replacement) have saved my bacon on numerous occasions. The directions indicate to take 1-3 tablets per hour during prolonged exercise, which I do during IM distance triathlons. I sweat profusely, so I try to take 3 tablets per hour on the bike and run segment. I have encountered severe, excruciating cramps during the latter part of the marathon even with the electrolyte supplement in my system. In this scenario, I pop one in my mouth and bite into it. The results are immediate in regards to the alleviation of muscle cramps. Based on my experiences with electrolyte replacement tablets and prolonged exercise, I can say without reservation that they work extremely well in minimizing muscle cramps. From my perspective muscular cramps translate to pain and slower finish times. Since I have discovered electrolyte replacement tablets, I have seen significant improvements in both areas.

  10. #10
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    The capsules I bought from American Nutrition are called Electra

    Each capsule contains 341mg of sodium and 21mg of potassium. I am getting the other minerals from a chelated mineral supplement, taken the evening before. The Electra specifies it is buffered electrolyte replacement, recommends one capsule every 1/2 hour, not to exceed 2 capsules per hour (for heavy perspiration.)

    I am going to try to go one capsule per hour tomorrow for a scheduled 4 hour ride and see how it goes. Report to follow.

    Thanks.
    How many times I gotta say it? it aint a taint, its a gooch...

  11. #11
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    Recommendation:

    Excellent information by Bill Misner..
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...98422?v=glance
    http://www.e-caps.com/za/ECP?PAGE=OU...ARTICLE.ID=569

    Hammer Gel products are excellent.

    Edit: Searching the web for B. Misner's book is proving fruitless....here is an exerpt from his book for your info:
    (You should consult your doctor before supplementing any minerals or vitamins....this information is not for medical treatment, or alternative to professional medical advice, but is a review of scientific evidence presented for information purposes. Applications of the herein is at the sole choice and risk of the reader).
    Getting the right amount of water
    On the average, an athlete loses a liter of fluid/hour of exercise. These perspiration-loss rates may be controlled or lessened by acclimation and training. The human body, when fit, will store enough muscle glycogen to provide energy for approximately 90 minutes of aerobic exercise. This extra glycogen storage through training helps balance the hydration equation. As muscle glycogen is burned to create energy for movement, water is released within the cells as metabolic by-product and is diverted to cool the body through skin-surface sweat.

    Shepherd and Kavanagh (1978) found that during a marathon, competing runners released an average of 2 liters of perspiration through the process of burning muscle glycogen stores. If an athlete supplements this glycogen water by taking in 16 ounces of fluids for every hour of exercise, dehydration will normally be avoided in those events which last from three to four hours.

    Researchers, however, have recently noted the dangers of too much hydration during events lasting over four hours. Noadkes (1985, 1988) reported that runners who drank too much during ultra-marathons and triathlons developed hyponatremeia (low blood serum). Hyponatremia, it turns out, may be caused by drinking too little or too much.

    In ultra events, it is typically the front runners who dehydrate; those in the back of the pack tend to over-hydrate. Both suffer from the same hyponatremic symptoms – one from too little fluid intake and too much sodium loss due to profuse sweating; the other from too much fluid intake with proportionately less sodium loss.

    Of the 17 runners who were hospitalized from after the 1985 Comrades ultra-marathon, nine had hyponatremia caused by diluting blood sodium levels with too much water. The tendency to linger at aid stations in a vain attempt to relieve the symptoms of fatigue or heat by drinking too much water is a fault found primarily in the runners who populate the back of the pack (Noakes 1990).

    Overcoming the Heat
    Air temperature and humidity are factors for overcoming heat related stress that one must consider along with fitness and acclimatization. When external temperature and humidity both exceed 70%-degrees, or when either temperature or humidity exceeds 80%-degrees, an athlete may do better to slow down his/her pace, expose as much skin as possible to cooling breezes, and take frequ3ent walk breaks.

    Some believe that simple mesh shirts are the coolest (Noakes 1990) but wearing no shirt at all will reduce core temperature 1° in the first mile of running, compared to wearing any type of shirt).

    Increased body mass also increases metabolic heat production. A 100kg runner puts out twice the heat of a 50kg runner. No wonder the smaller, thinner runners tend to do better in the heat, year after year.

    What replacement fluids should contain:
    Body fluid losses include both water and electrolytes. Electrolytes are chemical substances which, when dissolved in the water within the body or lost in our perspiration, are the missing electrically-charged particles, or ions, necessary for cellular metabolism. They help the body’s intra-/extra- cellular chemical balance and assist in the neuro-metabolic expenditure of caloric energy.

    Athletes who are more fit and more acclimatized to heat lose less fluids and electrolytes. The rate of loss through sweat for a fit marathon runner includes a sodium loss of 2,000mg in that liter of fluid lost each hour (2kg/liter/hour). The average American athlete stores an excess of 8,000mg of dietary sodium within body tissues

    Losses per 1 hour of exercise:
    Electrolyte:Fit/Acclimatized athlete:Unfit/Unacclimatized athlete:
    Sodium: 1,800 mg 3,500 mg
    Chloride: 900 mg 1,400 mg
    Potassium : 100 mg 200 mg
    Magnesium: 100 mg 100 mg
    Water: 1 liter 1 liter
    When one considers the possible losses during a 4-hour competitive event, it becomes obvious that maintenance of a balanced electrolyte supplement and moderate amounts of liquid are absolutely necessary both for survival and optimal performance in the heat.

    Dose Recommendations per hour for beyond a three-hour performance
    Calcium: 250 - 500 mg
    L-tyrosine: 50 - 100 mg
    Magnesium: 125 - 250 mg
    Manganese: 5 - 20 mg
    Potassium: 99 - 198 mg
    Pyridoxine: HCL (B-6): 20 - 40 mg
    Sodium Chloride: 100 - 200 mg
    Other formulations worth your consideration would increase sodium levels, if not raised to the point where they become problematic and cause negative side effects, more sodium may serve to assist electrolyte depletion and performance depletion in hyperthermic circumstances.

    Calcium is the most abundant mineral in the human body; about 2.85 lbs. are retained in the average person. When blood volumes run low, the body extracts calcium from the bones in a process that usually takes more time than even endurance competition typically allows. A constant blood calcium level is required for a normal rhythmic heartbeat, healthy nerve transmission, and strong muscle contractions.

    Deficiency in blood calcium levels during endurance events may produce high blood pressure, muscle cramps and weakness. During exercise, energy is produced by the conversion of fatty acids and amino acids with enzymes which are calcium-dependent.

    Magnesium accompanies calcium in an ideal ratio of 1-part magnesium, to two-parts calcium. It works like this: when calcium flows into working muscle cells, the muscle contracts; then when calcium leaves and magnesium replaces it, the muscle relaxes. Deficiency of magnesium contributes to muscle cramps, tremors, sleep disturbances and, in some cases, convulsive disorders. Many enzymatic reactions necessary for fuel conversion to muscular energy occur with the aid and presence of magnesium substrates.

    Potassium is the chief cation, or positively charged ion within all muscle cells. It is necessary to obtain the lowest optimal concentration and balance of sodium. Potassium deficiency symptoms are nausea, vomiting, muscle weakness, muscle spasm, cramping and rapid heart rate.

    Sodium is the chief cation outside the muscle cells. As previously noted, American dietary practices cause the average person to carry a reserve of 8,000 mg of sodium in his/her extracellular tissues. During endurance events, 3 to 4 hours are necessary to deplete this reserve of sodium. Deficiency usually begins to occur after 4 hours and may produce symptoms of abnormal heartbeat, muscle twitching and hypoventilation.

    The relative anion which must accompany sodium in the extracellular tissues is Chloride. This mineral is absolutely necessary to maintaining the osmotic tension in both blood and extracellular fluids.

    Manganese is necessary in trace amounts for optimal muscle cell enzyme reactions, permitting conversion of fatty acids and protein into energy. Research shows that Manganese deficiency plays a vital role in glucose tolerance factors, free-radical buildup from intense exercise and nerve function disorders, especially in older athletes (Balch 1990).

    Pyridoxine HCL (Vitamin B-6) is a co-enzyme which plays a role in 60 known enzymatic reactions involving metabolism of carbohydrates, fats and protein. This water soluble B-vitamin actively maintains the sodium-potassium balance and assists in the formation of red blood cells.

    L-tryosine, an amino acid, has been added recently to the electrolyte formula. When blood plasma deficiencies occur during extreme endurance events, low thyroid and low adrenal production result. The lack of adrenal and thyroid glandular secretions are due to endurance exercise-induced L-tyrosine depletion, which may be observed by measuring decreases in blood and catecholamines during such exercise.

    These glandular secretions are necessary for maintaining the rate of metabolism. Deficiency of the amino acid L-tryosine in blood serum appears firs as depression, later anger and then despondency, degenerating gradually into total despair.

    Found a site for USED condition: http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?au...ic&st=sr&ac=qr
    Last edited by coonass; 06-19-2005 at 04:17 AM.

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