Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12

    Vo2 max before base training

    I read an small article the other day about a coach recommending a short 3 week phase of Vo2 max training before base training began. This I presume to spike the aerobic system so that base training is more effective.

    I know most would gradually move through the zones until the Vo2 max phase is reached but could a pre base training Vo2max phase be beneficial?
    Last edited by richhand; 03-10-2012 at 03:18 PM.

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    Im coming to the conclusion the topic of VO2max isn't popular on here and maybe little understood..

  3. #3
    but thinking about it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,436
    Quote Originally Posted by richhand View Post
    Im coming to the conclusion the topic of VO2max isn't popular on here and maybe little understood..
    Based on what? If you mean training "VO2" max power, maybe it's not the subject of as much discussion as, say CP60, because it's generally perceived as a more straightforward (if painful) "thing" to train and maximize.

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Wookiebiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    5,233
    As long as you don't hurt yourself in the process...you should be fine.

    That however is the issue...there is a chance for injury by doing short intense efforts before you have a base built up. If you go this route I wouldn't do full on VO2 max efforts...more to the effect of low end VO2 or high end threshold efforts to keep the injury risk lower.
    Bikes:
    • 2013 Scott Foil 40
    • 2013 Jamis Nova Race (winter training bike)
    • 2012 Argon 18 E-118


  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    ignore this post, the system won't allow deletions or complete amendments
    Last edited by richhand; 03-12-2012 at 04:09 PM.

  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: cyclesport45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,534
    I hear crickets chirping. Gonna keep riding easy, unless there's someone to chase down. . .
    Just ride.

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided View Post
    Based on what? If you mean training "VO2" max power, maybe it's not the subject of as much discussion as, say CP60, because it's generally perceived as a more straightforward (if painful) "thing" to train and maximize.

    Based on the fact nobody has answered.

    I don't see where CP60 comes in. This is a test for estimating the max constant power for 60 minutes.

    I was asking about a training method that can help maintain max power over longer distances, ie. VO2max and if this same method could also help base training by first "spiking' the aerobic system.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    As long as you don't hurt yourself in the process...you should be fine.

    That however is the issue...there is a chance for injury by doing short intense efforts before you have a base built up. If you go this route I wouldn't do full on VO2 max efforts...more to the effect of low end VO2 or high end threshold efforts to keep the injury risk lower.
    I agree, this isn't necessarily for me though, im just interested in the rational behind it.

    I suppose it similar to the idea of coaches in many sports, that a quick overload before a session or phase can bring about enhanced results.

  9. #9
    Impulse Athletic Coaching
    Reputation: iliveonnitro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,878
    Could it be beneficial? Yes. Is there a compelling reason to do it? Generally, no.

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    684
    Here's a thread from an elite canadian MTB coach who experimented with MAP (six minute) stuff before and after the base period:

    "For an elite level athlete MAP is the big one in MTB racing. It can be argued that a 6 minute all out effort is the best predictor of performance.

    With this in mind I want to hit MAP twice this year. Hitting it at the beginning of training should produce some rapid initial gains. As the rate of improvement levels off I will switch the stimuli to aerobic capacity work for a couple of months. During this time I expect their MAP will either drop slightly, stay the same or improve (I suspect it will be the later); either way they will finish their base with higher MAP then normal."

    "With my athletes this year I have a structure so far of:
    1. MAP
    2. Base
    3. Base
    4. Base
    5. Threshold
    6. MAP
    7. Race

    Currently I am starting period 5

    The base periods have been primarily made up of big volume with minimal structured intensity. At the end of each period I have tested MAP power. (Test protocol is 4x6 minute with 4 minutes rest, record average power for the four intervals)

    The jumps in MAP power after the base periods have been impressive, very impressive, shockingly impressive.

    One girl has gone from 255, 270, to 285. Another guy has gone from 327, 343, 357. (They did a different testing protocol after the 3rd base period). For both of them these are near or are record values.

    Now both of them are full time athletes and have averaged 17+ hours per week for the past couple of months. Not something us working stiffs can do."

    Not sure how their seasons turned out long term - Ponch
    Last edited by Poncharelli; 03-13-2012 at 05:44 AM.

  11. #11
    but thinking about it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,436
    Quote Originally Posted by richhand View Post
    Based on the fact nobody has answered.

    I don't see where CP60 comes in. This is a test for estimating the max constant power for 60 minutes.

    I was asking about a training method that can help maintain max power over longer distances, ie. VO2max and if this same method could also help base training by first "spiking' the aerobic system.
    Well, no, CP60's a value, not a test, but now that your question is clearer, the best I can say is that I don't know of any meaningful study that speaks to the effectiveness of that program. As an anecdotal point that doesn't exactly address your question, but may be relevant, my highest 20-minute test power in each of the prior two seasons was reached in an early season devoted to threshold training (which probably isn't "base" as most mean it, but certainly didn't have much VO2-type work). In each of those seasons I have refocused on threshold again at the end of the season when my observed 5-minute power was meaningfully higher than it had been earlier in the season, and my 20-minute test power was close to, but not quite as high as, earlier in the year. I wasn't doing primarily VO2 oriented training immediately before those later threshold-centric periods, but I was coming out of blocks of aggressive road racing. Of course, those later threshold-centric periods are the end of a relatively long racing season, and it's possible that I would have been farther off my early season marks if not for the (informal) VO2 workouts that preceded them.

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    Ok, so to my initial question "could a pre base training Vo2max phase be beneficial?" The answer is yes.

    And I suppose the rest is down to individual compliance and testing as Poncharelli's post denotes. Of course it isn't a given but just another tool in the box.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    684
    Quote Originally Posted by richhand View Post
    I read an small article the other day about a coach recommending a short 3 week phase of Vo2 max training before base training began. This I presume to spike the aerobic system so that base training is more effective.
    Can you provide a link to the article?? I would really like to read it.


    Also, the thread from that coach was more in defense of base training than MAP work, and the impressive improvement in MAP from base training. A lot of people think that there is no benefit from base miles, when in reality, there is a lot.......if you do enough hours.
    Last edited by Poncharelli; 03-13-2012 at 05:52 AM.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    44
    It can be helpful for an experienced athlete.I wouldn't recommend it for someone with less then 3 seasons of racing/training. Living in the frozen north( well not this winter) this is a way to cut down on trainer boredom. Similar to reverse periodization.
    Thom Cormier
    PelotonCoaching.com

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    39
    Part of the issue is that your original question was regarding base training. Base training is different for different people. Personally, I don't subscribe to an extended period of Z2/Z3 training prior to going into FTP and VO2max training so the question doesn't make a lot of sense (to me). Then again, I have several years of training under my belt already.

    I usually mix in VO2max or FTP work together with Z2/Z3 work (e.g. do my intervals, then extend the ride with the Z2/Z3 work). I will do a block (1-2 wks) of VO2max work, then 6-8 weeks of FTP work. There is no rule that says you need to do VO2max work after FTP work. They build on each other, so I find mixing them a bit helps.

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Can you provide a link to the article?? I would really like to read it.


    Also, the thread from that coach was more in defense of base training than MAP work, and the impressive improvement in MAP from base training. A lot of people think that there is no benefit from base miles, when in reality, there is a lot.......if you do enough hours.
    Got you, sorry I haven't a clue now where the website is. There wasn't much of an article however, it was merely a paragraph of a coach stating that he advised an athlete to do 3 weeks of VO2max before a base training phase.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: newman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    12
    go to training4cyclists.com

  18. #18
    Impulse Athletic Coaching
    Reputation: iliveonnitro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,878
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyClaw View Post
    Part of the issue is that your original question was regarding base training. Base training is different for different people. Personally, I don't subscribe to an extended period of Z2/Z3 training prior to going into FTP and VO2max training so the question doesn't make a lot of sense (to me). Then again, I have several years of training under my belt already.

    I usually mix in VO2max or FTP work together with Z2/Z3 work (e.g. do my intervals, then extend the ride with the Z2/Z3 work). I will do a block (1-2 wks) of VO2max work, then 6-8 weeks of FTP work. There is no rule that says you need to do VO2max work after FTP work. They build on each other, so I find mixing them a bit helps.
    I don't see how your post can help anyone. Where are you getting this "plan?"

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro View Post
    I don't see how your post can help anyone. Where are you getting this "plan?"
    The original post asked about VO2max training prior to base training. It didn't have much background included regarding the individual. I pointed out that VO2max training can be done at any time and will benefit most athletes. The plan is derived from the writings of Skiba, Howe, Hunter, Coggan, and Medhus. It's obviously simplified, but the idea is that VO2max work doesn't need to be compartmentalized to some point after base (commonly at the end of build) prior to anaerobic work and left for just that period.

    I see you offered a lot more in your "plan". Or do you just reserve your "plan" for people you "coach"?

  20. #20
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    44
    I usually mix in VO2max or FTP work together with Z2/Z3 work (e.g. do my intervals, then extend the ride with the Z2/Z3 work). I will do a block (1-2 wks) of VO2max work, then 6-8 weeks of FTP work. There is no rule that says you need to do VO2max work after FTP work. They build on each other, so I find mixing them a bit helps.[/QUOTE]

    Training this way can be very useful. Though I would a(and have clients) do a longish(15-60min depending on the athlete and what they have for time) Z3/4 interval to finish off a workout like this. Maybe even throwing in a sprint or 2 towards the end to make it a little more race like.
    Again I will say that I would only do this with an experienced athlete.
    Thom Cormier
    PelotonCoaching.com

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

EUROBIKE

Hot Deals

Latest RoadBike Articles


Latest Videos

RoadbikeReview on Facebook