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  1. #1
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    Shimano Dura Ace 8 speed 7400 series questions...

    Hello,

    I would like to build up another bike and am thinking along the lines of 8 speed DA 7400 series components. I am not familiar with this era of DA components and have some questions.

    What would be an appropriate group for a 1990 Miyata Team? I find that there are 7400, 7401, 7402, 7403 and 7410. What is the difference between all of these? Which should I focus on that would be of the right age +/-. I want to use downtube shifters. Any particular parts to look for or to avoid?

    Thanks for any advice,

    James

    Edit: I just found the Miyata catalog from 1990 and it shows the DA components but doesn't list exactly what they are other than 8 speed. Any ideas? This bike is really going to compliment my '82 Miyata Team and Pro!
    Last edited by Quattro_Assi_07; 02-24-2009 at 12:21 PM.
    San Antonio, Texas

  2. #2
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    I think your overall troubles in rebuilding isn't what group series you should use, it's more if you'll be able to find the parts.

    8spd stuff is really hard to find now. I believe a friend of mine fought to the death for used 8spd downtube DA shifters... let's just say it cost as much as Ultegra STI6600 ~150 bucks.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro_Assi_07
    Hello,

    I would like to build up another bike and am thinking along the lines of 8 speed DA 7400 series components. I am not familiar with this era of DA components and have some questions.

    What would be an appropriate group for a 1990 Miyata Team? I find that there are 7400, 7401, 7402, 7403 and 7410. What is the difference between all of these? Which should I focus on that would be of the right age +/-. I want to use downtube shifters. Any particular parts to look for or to avoid?

    Thanks for any advice,

    James

    Edit: I just found the Miyata catalog from 1990 and it shows the DA components but doesn't list exactly what they are other than 8 speed. Any ideas? This bike is really going to compliment my '82 Miyata Team and Pro!
    The Dura Ace 74xx numbering system is weird...There never was a complete 7401, 7402,7403, or 7410 group....These numbers were limited to an upgraded part only..That could be just a brake

    If the frame is is a 1990, you should be using an 8 speed but stay away from 7410 series parts..(cranks, BB, headset and front derailleur).they are too new...

    Anything earlier the 7410 will work and look fine....

    I did a Dura Ace timeline in this forum that I updated last year....I'll try to find it or you can do a search
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    The Dura Ace 74xx numbering system is weird...There never was a complete 7401, 7402,7403, or 7410 group....These numbers were limited to an upgraded part only..That could be just a brake

    If the frame is is a 1990. You should be using an 8 speed but stay away from 7410 series parts..(cranks, BB, headset and front derailleur).they are too new...

    Anything earlier the 7410 will work and look fine....

    I did a Dura Ace timeline in this forum that I updated last year....I'll try to find it or you can do a search

    here is the timeline....again to be period correct, stay away from the 7410 parts

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...95129#poststop


    I started this with the 7400 series even though there were the original DA group starting in 1973 and the DA AX and EX series prior to the 7400 series...If someone has part numbers for these, please feel free to add them

    Dura Ace timeline

    7400 6 speed SIS (198?)
    Uniglide 6 speed cassettes
    BR-7400 single pivot brakes (non SLR)
    HP 7400- ball bearing headset
    HB-7400 last non-cassette hub
    MF-7400 last freewheel
    FC-7400 standard profile crankarms
    RD-7400 (6spd)
    ST-7400 (8spd STI used with RD-7402 below) works on 7spd also
    PD-7400 aero pedal with clips (still used on track a lot!)
    SP-7400 A and B- A= fluted B= aero
    BL-7400 - non aero brake levers

    7401 FH - 1st cassette hub for 7400 series.(126mm)
    SL-7401 7 speed SIS downtube
    PD-7401 Look compatible pedals (Used by Lance to win TdF)
    7 spd Uniglide cassette
    RD-7401 (7spd)
    BL-7401- aero brake levers- no return spring

    7402 Superglide chainrings (A/B types)
    RD-7402 (8spd)
    BR-7402 SLR Single Pivot brakes
    HB-7402 8spd cassette hub (130mm) Uniglide and Hyperglide
    BL-7402 Aero brake levers- return spring
    SL-7402 SIS 8 speed downtube shifters

    7403 BR-7403 SLR Dual Pivot Brakes
    HB-7403 8spd cassette hub- Hyperglide only

    7410 SP - Easton seatpost
    HP 7410 - Cartridge bearing headset
    PD - SPD pedals
    BB 7410 - Cartridge BB 103mm spindle
    FC 7410- Low profile crankarms w/ SuperGlide chainrings (the best looking crankset ever made by Shimano)
    FD 7410 - ft derailleur

    7600 Track
    7600 -high flange hubs -Still made today for Keirin racing
    1/8" or 3/32" chainrings and cogs available
    7600 Cranks arms- Still made today for Keirin racing
    7600 headset- Blueish colored cups

    7700 ST-7700 9spd STI (1997)
    BB-7700 splined BB with needle bearings
    FC-7700 hollow low profice splined crankarms
    PD-7700 SPD-R pedals (No longer used by George Hincapie!)
    FH-7700 Ti cassette body, Al QR levers
    CS-7700 9spd cassette, Ti large cogs
    HB-7700 Al axle, Al QR levers
    BR-7700 Dual Pivot SLR, smaller & lighter than 7403
    CN-7700 Narrow chain with annoying master pins

    25 Anniversary Group 1999 ( 7700 series parts highly polished and some ti bolts)

    7710 Track group - still produced today
    FC 7710 splined crankarms
    HB 7710 low flange hubs
    BB 7710 sealed version of splined BB

    For the sake of this retro discussion, we'll stop at 7700 series
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleavesF
    I think your overall troubles in rebuilding isn't what group series you should use, it's more if you'll be able to find the parts.

    8spd stuff is really hard to find now. I believe a friend of mine fought to the death for used 8spd downtube DA shifters... let's just say it cost as much as Ultegra STI6600 ~150 bucks.
    I am not too worried about finding the parts. I just need to know what would be correct. I managed to find the parts to build up my two Miyatas with 6 speed DA AX and EX groups.

    San Antonio, Texas

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    here is the timeline....again to be period correct, stay away from the 7410 parts

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...95129#poststop


    I started this with the 7400 series even though there were the original DA group starting in 1973 and the DA AX and EX series prior to the 7400 series...If someone has part numbers for these, please feel free to add them

    Dura Ace timeline

    For the sake of this retro discussion, we'll stop at 7700 series
    Hey Dave, thanks a bunch. I'll definitely save that info on my computer. By the way, I just recently bought this Pinarello.



    It has 8 speed DA for the most part. I guess I can always swap those DA parts onto my Miyata, right? I have not yet actually seen them but they seem to be the right age. I plan on building that Pinarello up with C-Record, so if I went this route, I'll save a bunch of time, effort and money. This is dependant on those parts being the right ones that I need. Can you tell by looking at the pictures if they are? There was concern that the shifters are particularly difficult to find.











    San Antonio, Texas

  7. #7
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    Wow!, that is a stunning bike.

  8. #8
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    I've never had a problem locating 8 speed DT shifters...i see them for sale all the time for about $50-60...The 8 speed STI shifters go for big bucks....The irony is that 9 speed 7700 shifters were designed by Shimano to shift 8 speed when connected to a 7400 series derailleur. I guess most people don't realize that or they wouldn't be spending huge dollars on 7400 shifters
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  9. #9
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    Digging the black chrome.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    I've never had a problem locating 8 speed DT shifters...i see them for sale all the time for about $50-60...The 8 speed STI shifters go for big bucks....The irony is that 9 speed 7700 shifters were designed by Shimano to shift 8 speed when connected to a 7400 series derailleur. I guess most people don't realize that or they wouldn't be spending huge dollars on 7400 shifters
    What about the components in the pictures. Do they look like 7400 series?

    How about those shifters? I definitely want to stick with downtube shifters on this build.

    Thanks,

    James
    San Antonio, Texas

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacolnago
    Wow!, that is a stunning bike.
    Thanks, I think so too. It is my first classic Italian bike and probably will be my last. I hope the ride quality is as nice as it looks.

    Best,

    James
    San Antonio, Texas

  12. #12
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    It's starting to grow on me...

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpig
    Digging the black chrome.
    I bought it originally to strip and polish the chrome. I haven't yet seen it in the flesh and hope it is as nicely preserved as in the pictures. I would like to keep it with that black chrome finish if at all possible.

    Best,

    James
    San Antonio, Texas

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro_Assi_07
    What about the components in the pictures. Do they look like 7400 series?

    How about those shifters? I definitely want to stick with downtube shifters on this build.

    Thanks,

    James

    Oh yeah...that's a complete 7400 series group.....very nice
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  14. #14
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    Hey Brewster, here are the pics of the STI hoods....

    let me know

    sorry for the intrusion folks.. we are conducting a little business here... we now return you to the thread you were reading
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano Dura Ace 8 speed 7400 series questions...-img_2171.jpg   Shimano Dura Ace 8 speed 7400 series questions...-img_2172.jpg  
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  15. #15
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    As long as we are intruding, I believe I have a set of 8 speed DT shifters lurking in my parts bin.

  16. #16
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    I just picked up a used ~1990 Bianchi Columbus SLX tubed roadie with a mix of Camp/Shim parts on it.

    The hubs are old DA 8 spd. The rear is the original cassette style where the last cog is the lockring. Unfortunately it's a 12-21 and I live in the Rockies. I put a 34/46 cobbled crank on the front for now to get a decent climbing gear, but I'd really like to find a different cassette to go on there.

    Or I might just keep an eye out for a whole new rear wheel. Shame, cuz those DA hubs are nice. It's got DA front and rear der's too...Shimano 600 DT shifters.

    The bike rides really nice, but it's had a hard life. Only paid $200 for it though...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cervelo-er
    I just picked up a used ~1990 Bianchi Columbus SLX tubed roadie with a mix of Camp/Shim parts on it.

    The hubs are old DA 8 spd. The rear is the original cassette style where the last cog is the lockring. Unfortunately it's a 12-21 and I live in the Rockies. I put a 34/46 cobbled crank on the front for now to get a decent climbing gear, but I'd really like to find a different cassette to go on there.

    Or I might just keep an eye out for a whole new rear wheel. Shame, cuz those DA hubs are nice. It's got DA front and rear der's too...Shimano 600 DT shifters.

    The bike rides really nice, but it's had a hard life. Only paid $200 for it though...

    Double check that it's not threaded inside the freehub body too for a lockring...In the crossover years from Uniglide to Hyperglide, Shimano had a DA hub that would work with both. It was right around that time period
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey
    Double check that it's not threaded inside the freehub body too for a lockring...In the crossover years from Uniglide to Hyperglide, Shimano had a DA hub that would work with both. It was right around that time period
    but the climbing gears are hard to find......

    b21

  19. #19
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    The hard part is the cassette cogs don't have the "big gap" that newer cassettes do, so I can't slide any old 8 speed guy on there...and finding and 13-25/26 cogs are impossible.

    New wheel it is.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    The irony is that 9 speed 7700 shifters were designed by Shimano to shift 8 speed when connected to a 7400 series derailleur. I guess most people don't realize that or they wouldn't be spending huge dollars on 7400 shifters
    Bumping an old thread.

    I've got a DA 8-speed equipped Merlin circa 1991 with down-tube shifters. I'd very much like to put STI shifters on it (I have a circa 1983 Guerciotti in case I get nostalgic for down-tube shifters, or friction shifters, or steel frames...). This is the only place that I have read that 7700 shifters are compatible with a 7400 rear derailleur. It would be great to have more options than just the ST-7400 when shopping for old, used shifters. Can you explain how this works? This isn't mentioned in "the bible" (sheldonbrown.com).

    Thanks!

    -- Larry B.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by larry200 View Post
    Bumping an old thread.

    I've got a DA 8-speed equipped Merlin circa 1991 with down-tube shifters. I'd very much like to put STI shifters on it (I have a circa 1983 Guerciotti in case I get nostalgic for down-tube shifters, or friction shifters, or steel frames...). This is the only place that I have read that 7700 shifters are compatible with a 7400 rear derailleur. It would be great to have more options than just the ST-7400 when shopping for old, used shifters. Can you explain how this works? This isn't mentioned in "the bible" (sheldonbrown.com).

    Thanks!

    -- Larry B.
    As long as you are using a 7400 series RD and 8 speed cassette, all you need to do is connect the 7700 shifters normally( no special routing needed)..you just don't use the extra click...

    Sheldon's DA chart shows it but he doesn't go into detail on the page..Look at the top of the DA chart. It says any 9 speed shifter .( the fact that it's not yellow only means no special routing is needed)

    This works like a charm.....it only works because the 7400 RD has a different cable pull than other Shimano RDs. One click with a 7700 shifter will move a 7400 series RD for 8 speed spacing...

    As further proof, look at the label on the Shimano 9 speed bar end shifters, they say "compatible with RD-7700 9 speed and RD-7400 8 speed"

    I've been using this set up for years because I like the silver 7700 downtube shifters.. I run 7400 components with 7700 shifters with zero issues and perfect shifts
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    As long as you are using a 7400 series RD and 8 speed cassette, all you need to do is connect the 7700 shifters normally( no special routing needed)..you just don't use the extra click...

    Sheldon's DA chart shows it but he doesn't go into detail on the page..Look at the top of the DA chart. It says any 9 speed shifter .( the fact that it's not yellow only means no special routing is needed)

    This works like a charm.....it only works because the 7400 RD has a different cable pull than other Shimano RDs. One click with a 7700 shifter will move a 7400 series RD for 8 speed spacing...

    As further proof, look at the label on the Shimano 9 speed bar end shifters, they say "compatible with RD-7700 9 speed and RD-7400 8 speed"

    I've been using this set up for years because I like the silver 7700 downtube shifters.. I run 7400 components with 7700 shifters with zero issues and perfect shifts
    Thanks to your tip I managed to complete a second 7400 groupset by using 7700 DT shifters. Works flawlessly.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    This works like a charm.....it only works because the 7400 RD has a different cable pull than other Shimano RDs. One click with a 7700 shifter will move a 7400 series RD for 8 speed spacing...
    Thanks for the additional information! So, any 9-speed STI shifters should work with the 7400 RD? (If I read Sheldon's chart correctly, now.)

    Alternatively, any post-1997 8-speed STI shifter and post-1997 Shimano rear derailleur should also work with my old Dura Ace 8-speed cassette?

    Finding either ST-7400 or ST-7700 shifters in good condition seems difficult right now. Well, there is the NOS set of ST-7400 on ebay for $1200...

    I shouldn't be in any hurry, but I test rode a couple of new bikes. They can keep the carbon frames (light as they are), but I've been seduced by STI-style shift levers.

    Thanks again!

    -- Larry B.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by larry200 View Post
    Thanks for the additional information! So, any 9-speed STI shifters should work with the 7400 RD? (If I read Sheldon's chart correctly, now.)

    Alternatively, any post-1997 8-speed STI shifter and post-1997 Shimano rear derailleur should also work with my old Dura Ace 8-speed cassette?


    -- Larry B.
    Correct....you've got it perfectly....
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cervelo-er View Post
    I just picked up a used ~1990 Bianchi Columbus SLX tubed roadie with a mix of Camp/Shim parts on it.

    The hubs are old DA 8 spd. The rear is the original cassette style where the last cog is the lockring. Unfortunately it's a 12-21 and I live in the Rockies. I put a 34/46 cobbled crank on the front for now to get a decent climbing gear, but I'd really like to find a different cassette to go on there.

    Or I might just keep an eye out for a whole new rear wheel. Shame, cuz those DA hubs are nice. It's got DA front and rear der's too...Shimano 600 DT shifters.

    The bike rides really nice, but it's had a hard life. Only paid $200 for it though...
    OK, I know this is probably too late but HG sprockets fit UG cassettes - apart from the smallest 2 (which are the threaded one and another one). I've added 2 larger HG sprockets to my UG cassette. It just needs some minor hand-filing of one of the splines. Its really simple though.

    If anyones still interested, I have pictures somewhere I can post if requested
    Rob

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