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Old 02-09-2010   #1
bicyclerepairman
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Help with speed wobble....

Greetings...
Managed not to crash (TYJ) at fairly high speed after going into a speed wobble. Coming out of a long downhill sweeper, the asphalt became waffle-like, and I was on the thinnest edge of crashing and not crashing that I can ever remember. I'm now afraid to go that fast (on this bike) on smooth roads.

New build (54 cm 1984 Fuji Espree, converted to SS). New tires (nominal 27 x 1 1/4" - but they measure as 1 1/8"), cheap Performance Forte GT's and Forte tubes (front inflated to 90 psi, rear inflated to 95 psi) on used but properly tensioned and true narrow rims, NOS Tange Levin headset w/o any play or binding in the headset adjustment. I replaced the original 80 mm Nitto stem with a 90 mm. for better fit. The dropouts are aligned, and the original fork isn't bent. The only mechanical issue I can think of to address is the alignment of the rear triangle, which is off by @ 3 mm. Which I don't think is much, but it isn't perfect. I can ride w/o hands, but I have had bikes that have balanced easier riding w/o hands; it feels pretty quick steering with as long a wheelbase (long chainstays) as this bike has. I'm estimating the head tube angle to be 73 degrees, and the fork rake is average.

Maybe its all in my head.
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Old 02-09-2010   #2
bikerjulio
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a few years ago i had the most frightening experience on a bike during a long decent into Collingwood, On. where speeds in the 90 -100k range are normal. Road surface was slightly coarse asphalt, slight sidewind. Suddenly the bike started shaking so hard I thought I was going to loose it. I was the only one in a group of about 20 with a problem.

in trying to research the issue I must have come up with at least half a dozen completely different explanations, although they all deal with resonance. even wrote to Zinn and got a lengthy answer. here are a couple of Velonews links:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/...ous-sound_9242

http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/.../101285_101285

in my case, the bike geometry was a little aggressive & it was one bike i could not ride hands off. swapped out the 43mm rake fork for a 40mm and made a big difference in stability.

Last edited by bikerjulio : 02-09-2010 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 02-09-2010   #3
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Press your knee up against the top tube to prevent the wobble.
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Old 02-09-2010   #4
FBinNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Press your knee up against the top tube to prevent the wobble.

+10, High speed shimmy is a resonance phenomenon. Often there are underline causes which make it worse, but you seem to have addressed these other than the alignment issue. Correcting the tracking will help, but in the end almost any bike will shimmy at a certain speed, and interestingly often stop shimmying at a higher speed.

The two cures, are to change speed from the resonant speed, or change the resonant frequency by putting one or both knees firmly against the top tube.

Two other things that often help are lowering front tire pressure, though 90psi is probably low enough already, and shifting weight forward.
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Old 02-09-2010   #5
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Wobble is the wrong word for what I experienced. It was a violent out of control shaking where you start to think the bike's going to come apart. knees on TT wouldnt stop it once started. The second of Zinn's links above, the suggested solution is the opposite - it's to move weight back.

When Eddy was asked this question, his answer is said to have been "get another bike".
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Old 02-09-2010   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerjulio
Wobble is the wrong word for what I experienced. It was a violent out of control shaking where you start to think the bike's going to come apart. knees on TT wouldnt stop it once started. The second of Zinn's links above, the suggested solution is the opposite - it's to move weight back.

When Eddy was asked this question, his answer is said to have been "get another bike".



might be the wrong word, but it is what everyone is describing/discussing
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Old 02-09-2010   #7
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If I correctly interpreted the extend of your alignment, you've about half way done. You checked how the wheels are sitting in their dropouts, the fork is fine and the rear end is shifted ~3mm.

Here's what you need to check next: is the seat tube sitting on the same plane as the head tube? In other words, if the frame was sitting next to a wall would the head tube and the seat tube be parallel to the wall and be the same distance away from the wall? Then are the wheels also parallel to the wall. Ideally you should be able to cut a bike in half down the middle (like Wile E Coyote running though a buzz saw) and have the same amount of bike on both sides. If the head tube is off axis from the seat tube, you'd have more BB on one half and more seat on the other half.

Does that make sense? The big question is "how much axis deflection is too much?" That's a difficult question. I'm not great at geometry, but if you're off 1mm (1 degree?) at the top of the fork crown, how much does that increase to at the ground? Is that too much to live with?

In the late 80's I had a 531 tubed Nottingham made frame that was twisted like I just described. It never gave me issues nor had I found a high speed wobble. But at a mechanic school we put it on a frame table to learn some alignment techniques and discovered the axis issue. After adjustment it was a different bike. It rode so much better.

If you have access to a frame table it will be easy to verify the alignment. If you have a Park F.A.G.-2 and other tools you could do this procedure. A not so quick (it could take a couple of hours depending on distractions) and dirty way to see is to put the bike in a stand next to a large window made from one sheet of glass. Glass isn't always perfect, but it's closer than drywall or brick walls.

Tools you'll want or need:

=A good tape measure
=a 3' or larger carpenter's level
=a small level that could fit on the head tube (if possible find one that will avoid the lugs if it is a lugged frame)
=a level that will fit on the seat tube
=masking tape
=a fine point Sharpie (ultra fine if you can swing it)
= a couple of window shims
=about 10' of string that doesn't stretch

How all this comes together:

Take the carpenter's level and check the window. If it is plumb to the ground and has no gaps along the length of the level then you're stylin'. If there's defects in the window where there's a gap between the level and the glass, put a small piece of tape on the gap so you can avoid that spot when measuring.

Take the string and tightly tie between the front axle and the bottom bracket spindle on both sides of the bike. Don't get fancy with the knots, but they can't slip and the string needs to be uber-tight. Measure the distance from the BB center to the front axle center. It needs to be the same on both sides of the bike.

Set the bike stand next to the window as close as you can and still be able to use the tape measure. The bike stand needs to be anchored solidly so it doesn't shift away from the window between measurements. If you have a shop-grade Park stand with the heavy base that's about as solid as they come. Otherwise you'll want something like a sandbag to set on the feet of the stand.

Once you've referenced the plumb of the window with the seat tube level and head tube level (if it's off plumb and the bubble is partially on a line you can still do this. With the Sharpie put a small mark on the edges of the bubble for the new center) you need to match the plumb of the seat tube. We want the seat tube to be the zero reverence to the rest of the frame since it's the hardest to adjust. Put the seat tube level on the seat tube. IF it's a match, great, otherwise you'll need the window shims to gently shim the bike stand. Get the seat tube parallel to the window and then rotate the arm of the stand until the seat tube is plumb.

If you have the levels on the head and seat tubes and the bubbles referenced on the window are within the same marks from the window you're golden. If the head tube level is off then you know it's the problem.

The other measurements you can verify are the wheel centers. If the head tube and seat tube are both the same distance (measure to center of the seat & head tubes) from the window then the wheels should also be the same distance from the window. (the rear would be ~3mm off, right?) For the rear wheel you can measure from clock points to the window and see if it is actually sitting in the frame centered. Make sure the wheel is dished and true. If the wheel is out of dish or out of true, put a piece of tape on the rim and make all measurements to the window from that mark. Just rotate the wheel to make the measurements.

The front wheel should also be parallel to the window, unless the head tube is off axis from the seat tube. Then the top of the wheel would be closer or further away from the window.

So you just wrestled with the bike to discover it's off axis. What to do? Do you have the tools to tweak the frame back to axis? If you don't, I don't know what to say other than you're going to have to live with it and avoid washboard descents at high speed.
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Old 02-09-2010   #8
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Unfortunately, and it seems you are aware of this from your post, there is no one easy answer to speed wobble. My own opinion is that outside of some obvious fault with the bike, a lot of speed shimmy is rider induced or at least a contributing factor. I'm not necessarily saying that you did anything wrong but I don't think you can eliminate the rider from the equation. You have much more influence over the bike than vice-versa. When you came to that section of road and you're flying along do you remember whether you remained relaxed and loose or did you tighten up when the wobble started? I know it's easy to say to relax when you get in these situations but i my experience the best way to start a shimmy is to lock your arms grip the bars tightly.
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Old 02-09-2010   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerjulio
knees on TT wouldnt stop it once started. The second of Zinn's links above, the suggested solution is the opposite - it's to move weight back."

"Knee on the top tube" has nothing to do with weight shift. It's supposed to stop or modify a harmonic vibration by arresting the mid-section of the top tube with your knee(s). It works better than most people think, although there is a point (which you may have experienced) beyond which "knee on the top tube" is no longer effective.
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Old 02-09-2010   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielly
Unfortunately, and it seems you are aware of this from your post, there is no one easy answer to speed wobble. My own opinion is that outside of some obvious fault with the bike, a lot of speed shimmy is rider induced or at least a contributing factor. I'm not necessarily saying that you did anything wrong but I don't think you can eliminate the rider from the equation. You have much more influence over the bike than vice-versa. When you came to that section of road and you're flying along do you remember whether you remained relaxed and loose or did you tighten up when the wobble started? I know it's easy to say to relax when you get in these situations but i my experience the best way to start a shimmy is to lock your arms grip the bars tightly.

After some 25yrs of high performance motorcycle riding/racing this very aspect is also true when speaking of shakes/wobbles etc.
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Old 02-09-2010   #11
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Originally Posted by orangeclymer
After some 25yrs of high performance motorcycle riding/racing this very aspect is also true when speaking of shakes/wobbles etc.

And generally, the reverse is usually a good way to stop it: It's nearly impossible to relax your grip in the midst of it all, but if you manage it the oscillations seem to stop quickly.

relaying wim's earlier note: the knee in the top tube is best IMO as a preventative or when wobble is first sensed. Once things get going, it's not as likely to be a successful way to do much but bruise a knee.
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Old 02-09-2010   #12
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All good answers, but in the end Eddy was right, you will never feel comfortable on that bike again unless you can find something wrong with it. I had a bike like this and it is in the shed now its very old so who cares, neither one of the road bikes I ride now have ever got the shakes and thats the way I want it.
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Old 02-09-2010   #13
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Eddy knows
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Old 02-10-2010   #14
eddie m
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY
+10, High speed shimmy is a resonance phenomenon. Often there are underline causes which make it worse, but you seem to have addressed these other than the alignment issue. Correcting the tracking will help, but in the end almost any bike will shimmy at a certain speed, and interestingly often stop shimmying at a higher speed.

The two cures, are to change speed from the resonant speed, or change the resonant frequency by putting one or both knees firmly against the top tube.

Two other things that often help are lowering front tire pressure, though 90psi is probably low enough already, and shifting weight forward.
Asymmetry will damp out resonant vibrations, so correcting alignment will more likely make the problem worse, rather than better.
Reducing tire pressure is exactly the opposite advice as you will find at the end of the link to Velonews.

em

em
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Old 02-10-2010   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8blues
All good answers, but in the end Eddy was right, you will never feel comfortable on that bike again unless you can find something wrong with it. I had a bike like this and it is in the shed now its very old so who cares, neither one of the road bikes I ride now have ever got the shakes and thats the way I want it.
There is usually nothing wrong with the bike, except that the rider's weight and position, and the flexibility and dimensions of the frame allow some resonace to develop. those things are not predictable until it happens.
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Old 02-10-2010   #16
eddie m
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wim
"Knee on the top tube" has nothing to do with weight shift. It's supposed to stop or modify a harmonic vibration by arresting the mid-section of the top tube with your knee(s). It works better than most people think, although there is a point (which you may have experienced) beyond which "knee on the top tube" is no longer effective.
I never found knee on the top tube effective to stop a resonance once it has begun, although I think it may prevent one form starting.
I find the most effective thing is to get out of the saddle. It easier for me to do that than to shift my weight forward or back, which is probably effective but I'm afraid to try it.

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Old 02-10-2010   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8blues
All good answers, but in the end Eddy was right, you will never feel comfortable on that bike again unless you can find something wrong with it. I had a bike like this and it is in the shed now its very old so who cares, neither one of the road bikes I ride now have ever got the shakes and thats the way I want it.

There are some things you can change that may fix a bike inclined to speed wobble. Flexy forks, bars and stems can start a wobble that might not otherwise occur. I found this true on one of my bikes. Simply changing bars and stem cured the problem, or at least it never occured again under the same circumstances after making the changes. So Eddy was right with a footnote, try getting new parts before getting a new bike.
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Old 02-10-2010   #18
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I'm not sure there's a definitive answer to this question. AFAIK this effects all single track vehicles. I rode motorcycles for over 30 years and I, as well as many others, have experienced some real "tank slappers." I haven't had too much trouble on bicycles but when I have I've always found that clamping the top tube with my knees cured the situation immediately. Checking frame alignment, wheels and tires, headset adjustment are always a good idea, but in spite of that you still might get a wobble.
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Old 02-10-2010   #19
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I had a similar experince with a brand new build. I was going down a fairly steep incline at 50+ mph when the bike started to wobble rather violently. I thought the bike was going to come apart and I was going to die right then and there. Needless to say, it was pretty frightening. I managed to bring the bike to a stop. I thought something on the bike had broken because the wobble continue right up to the time I stopped the bike. It turned out that the headset had not been properly tightened during the build. I have been down that same road many times since then without any problems. For the first few months after the wobble incident when I would go down this hill, I would clamp the top tube between my knees.
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Old 02-11-2010   #20
bicyclerepairman
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I wish to thank everyone who posted....many thoughtful responses; much food for thought. But especially I wish to thank TWB8's for his ideas. I would not have thought of these techniques on my own. Once I get it sorted, I'll write and let folks know what I found the culprit to be.
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