Someone please help me identify this Colnago frame
Hello all!
I bought this Colnago frame off eBay. It's very pretty, although the paint was pretty beat-up in places (the pictures are post touch-ups). Anyway, I have no idea what model it is, and was wondering if anyone could help me ID it.
The eBay seller guesstimates that it is a mid-90's bike. It has 130mm rear spacing, so that seems reasonable. If it's not obvious from the pictures, the tubes are not specially shaped in any way. I can't find a serial number anywhere. There are also no tubing labels. There is a clover-shaped drain hole in the BB shell. It has Colnago-branded dropouts.
Aside: the seller says the frame takes a 26.8 seatpost, but I can't seem to get that size tight enough. On the other hand, a 27.2 doesn't fit at all (possibly the clamp has been compressed, of course). If I knew which model this bike is, then I'd be closer to knowing the story on the seatpost size.
You should be able to narrow this down to a fairly narrow period taking into the account the following:
Cut out BB- generally stamped BB versus investment cast with no clover leaf
Chain stay bridge design- changed from the tubed piece to a metal plate
Curved and painted fork
Art Decor paint- I think this was introduced in 1993
Non-split, through the top tube, rear brake housing
It's definitely not a Master/Olympic/Masterlight which was and still made with Gilco shaped tubes, first Columbus and now Deda steel.
Superissimo's had the clover cutout on the seat tube plate where it meets the seat lug.
Tecnos had the clover circled by a C on the seat tube lug.
My guess is either a Conic (SLX) or a Sprint Super (SL) which I think became the Classic and probably the latter two due to the curved fork. I recall that from the early 1990's onward, the Conic had a shaped downtube and the straight Prescia fork.
Seat tube should be 27.2. For steel bikes the only model in general circulation which did not take the 27.2 was the Oval CX.
If pressed, I'd say it's model year is 1993. As for specific model, hopefully others can help narrow this down.
While I agree the art deco paint began in the 90's, curved forks were long gone by then. I had a 91-92 spiral conic (slx) and it didn't have art deco paint, but it did have a straight fork and shaped down tube.
Another oddity is that almost all nag steel forks are chromed (allows forks to be mixed and matched, ie. not frame specific). The pictured bike looks more like a mid 80's master or mexico (however, the through the tt cable routing is not consistent) that has be repainted in a more recent (90's) paint style.
Are there any chips in the paint on the forks that show chrome underneath?
The seat tube should be 27.2 or 27.0 (if its a better quality nag.) since the frame looks to be fairly large. Many older frames were made with either Columbus SL, or SP. SP was the same steel with the same external dimensions as SL but the walls were .1 thicker all around. Hence an SP seat tube takes a 27.0.
There are a number of inconsistencies about this bike that make me suspicious of its origins (the round tubing, the curved fork etc.).
I did a lot of looking around for similar models, and had the same observations as you guys (but from a more ignorant point-of-view). I coudln't seem to find a picture of a bike that has the same combination of features.
At first I was thinking, "cool, it's rare". Now you guys have me thinking it's some cobbled together POS. More details: the paint is very much like that found on this Crystal:
But the top tube figure is not a rider figure on my bike - it's more of an abstract flourish. And again we see the straight forks on the Crystal, and fancier, chromed lugs than on my bike. The paint on the forks on my bike definitely matches that of the rest of the bike.
I can tell by looking down the seat tube that the frame was pinned together during assembly. There are a couple of pin ends still there, suggesting a quality build (though not necessarily Colnago). Could someone have gotten hold of the Colnago bits and assembled their own Col-fake-o?
Are there any things that I can check that are outright guarantee that a given frame is a "true" Colnago? (Well, I guess if there were, you guys would have mentioned it). I have read around that they farmed out lots of work to other shops in the late 80's, so I wonder if this is an example.
Where should I check for serial number? I've been all over the bike while I do make-ready for my build-up, but I haven't seen anything (that kind of bothered me from the start).
I looked hard at the inside of the seat tube, and can't see any butting there. Of course, it's fairly dirty, but it seems as though I'd be able to see butting.
The fork steerer looks to be composed of Columbus SLX. The rifling is very evident for the first (bottom) half of the tube. Obviously, it can't continue all the way to the top since a quill stem must be inserted.
I can't get a look inside the top tube. There is a small (about 1/4") hole in the seat tube where the top tube joins (I suppose for venting).
The inside of the BB shell is not a thing of beauty. The mitre work is unimpressive, but I'm no expert. The threads interact with the points where the other tubes come into the shell in a surprising way. It almost looks like it would be hard to screw a BB in (however, I screwed one out, so it must be possible - and yes, it's Italian-threaded).
Near the BB junctions are what I believe to be "pins" extending into the down and seat tubes (one each). On the outside of the BB shell/lug I can see a slight depression that seems to match the position of one of the "pins". Of course, as I said, I'm no expert, so they might not be what I think they are.
The top tube has an irregularity as it nears the seat tube, perhaps 4" away. It's as though it gets a bit thicker at that point. I assumed it was a side effect of the butted tubing, but I'd never noticed such a thing on another steel bike before (I also have a Serotta, and owned a Trek 620 "back in the day").
The straight forks were not offered on all their models, initially. The spiral conic, which was mass marketed by Colorado Cyclist did indeed have a straight fork. As I mentioned, the Conic was also made without the shaped down tube and had a curved fork, also SLX. Keep in mind that as Colnago transitioned to the straight forks, you could still get a curved fork. For those who remember the Terror of Tashkent, Djamolodine Abdujaparov, after leaving Carrera and riding for ??, road a Colango with a curved fork at a time when their top of the line bikes were being sold with the Prescia.
I concur that generally the forks, again on the higher end models, were chromed but you can get them with the fork painted including the decor finish and this includes their current carbon forks.
I thought about the possiblity that it was an older model that had been repainted but again, I believe that it's definitely a Colnago from the early 1990's and that this is the original paint unless Cyclophile is not located in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhr
While I agree the art deco paint began in the 90's, curved forks were long gone by then. I had a 91-92 spiral conic (slx) and it didn't have art deco paint, but it did have a straight fork and shaped down tube.
Another oddity is that almost all nag steel forks are chromed (allows forks to be mixed and matched, ie. not frame specific). The pictured bike looks more like a mid 80's master or mexico (however, the through the tt cable routing is not consistent) that has be repainted in a more recent (90's) paint style.
Are there any chips in the paint on the forks that show chrome underneath?
The seat tube should be 27.2 or 27.0 (if its a better quality nag.) since the frame looks to be fairly large. Many older frames were made with either Columbus SL, or SP. SP was the same steel with the same external dimensions as SL but the walls were .1 thicker all around. Hence an SP seat tube takes a 27.0.
There are a number of inconsistencies about this bike that make me suspicious of its origins (the round tubing, the curved fork etc.).
No one cuts out the BB shell, uses pins, fabricates the embossed rear brake bridge, cuts the lugs and does AD paint for a POS.
The link to the Crystal's interesting. What's more interesting is that the rider's in Nyetimber, UK. I've been to Nyetimber to pick up my C40. It's where Mike Perry's Maestro bikes is located. I'll bet he got the bike from Maestro and ordered the paint as I don't recall the Crystal being offered in that particular Casino scheme. Colnago will basically paint to order, provided you're patient. I ordered a C40 in early 2003. Production of the HP stays had begun in late 2002 but I asked Mike if the factory would still do a non-HP stay C40 and the answer was yes. In fact in my size (51) they were moving toward compacts and that if I wanted a traditional look, I'd have to wait. Further compounding the issue was I wanted AD10 paint. More waiting. The point is there are lots of Colnago's out there which don't necessarily match up to their general line up as shown by the retailers.
As for what my wife calls the "little man" on the top tube. I also have a Colnago Tecnos where the "little man" is more of a notion in motion versus the one in the Crystal.
There were lots of rumours regarding Colnago production during the mid 80's but again, I don't think your frame dates from that era.
As for SLX, the rifling was only in the butt areas of the main tubes and as you noted, the steerer. Check via the BB for the rifling in the seat and down tubes.
Serial number's. No idea but my Tecnos doesn't have one either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclophile
I did a lot of looking around for similar models, and had the same observations as you guys (but from a more ignorant point-of-view). I coudln't seem to find a picture of a bike that has the same combination of features.
At first I was thinking, "cool, it's rare". Now you guys have me thinking it's some cobbled together POS. More details: the paint is very much like that found on this Crystal:
But the top tube figure is not a rider figure on my bike - it's more of an abstract flourish. And again we see the straight forks on the Crystal, and fancier, chromed lugs than on my bike. The paint on the forks on my bike definitely matches that of the rest of the bike.
I can tell by looking down the seat tube that the frame was pinned together during assembly. There are a couple of pin ends still there, suggesting a quality build (though not necessarily Colnago). Could someone have gotten hold of the Colnago bits and assembled their own Col-fake-o?
Are there any things that I can check that are outright guarantee that a given frame is a "true" Colnago? (Well, I guess if there were, you guys would have mentioned it). I have read around that they farmed out lots of work to other shops in the late 80's, so I wonder if this is an example.
Where should I check for serial number? I've been all over the bike while I do make-ready for my build-up, but I haven't seen anything (that kind of bothered me from the start).
You're right about that. I guess I overreacted to jhr's comment that the "number of inconsistencies makes [him] suspicious of the bike's origin". I suppose I should have simply asked "suspicious of what?"
Anyway, I am in the US and bought the frame off a US eBayer (not that it means much).
Again, thanks for all the detailed feedback. I'm learning a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneman
No one cuts out the BB shell, uses pins, fabricates the embossed rear brake bridge, cuts the lugs and does AD paint for a POS.
First when I said suspicious of its origins I was not implying a fake, although they do exist and more frequently than you might guess.
Everything about the bike shouts 1980's super frame with the exception of the through the top tube cable routing and the two h2o bottle mounts. The bottom bracket, the fork, the little chain stay bridge, the seat tube caps, the round tubes, the chipping paint exposing chrome at the dropouts, the bottom bracket style, the lugs all shout "super" frame. Because its a larger frame it is most likely SP tubing and would take a 27.0 size seatpost.
I cannot rule out that is was another model from the late 80's (mexico, arabesque, even an early master).
Based on the photos though I do believe the frame has been repainted. Look carefully at the dropout there is chrome under the paint starting to show up. Also the "E" in Ernestos signature is clearly not original (it looks hand painted rather than a sticker).
Still it looks to be a nice ride. If it were mine I would be very tempted to strip it down, figure out how much chrome was on it and then have it painted wine red with white panels and black letters just like Saronni's 1982 worlds bike.
Blue frame is the Tecnos and the colored one is the C40 which is AD10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclophile
You're right about that. I guess I overreacted to jhr's comment that the "number of inconsistencies makes [him] suspicious of the bike's origin". I suppose I should have simply asked "suspicious of what?"
Anyway, I am in the US and bought the frame off a US eBayer (not that it means much).
Again, thanks for all the detailed feedback. I'm learning a lot.
Serial number for a nag. should be on one of the dropouts
I found what looks to be a serial number on the right rear dropout. It's '224', I believe. I'm sure about the first '2' and the '4', not so sure about the middle '2'. I'd have to take a rubbing of it, to be sure (and maybe not even then).
OK, I'm going to post the answer to my own question. There's still some degree of uncertainty, but this is my story and I'm sticking to it. It's an early Master model, probabably late 80's.
I took the bike to Vecchio's in Boulder (my favorite shop - I was picking some wheels up there). The guys in Vecchio's made a big deal over the Colnago. They seemed to especially love the clover/club drain hole in the BB shell. When I asked if anyone would care to guess what the model is, a guy who was working on his own bike there, who also happened to be an ex-Colnago rep, came and looked at it for a couple of seconds and said "I'd say it's an early Master model, probably late 80's". No wishy-washiness at all. So that's good enough for me. If anyone asks, that's what it is :-).
I asked about curved forks, paint, top-tube routing, etc., and he kept coming back with late 80's, maybe very early 90's master, before the shaped tubing. He specifically said that the fancy paint was available ealier than the 90's (maybe his memory is bad, but other guys chimed in with "yeah"). I then asked about the tubing itself, as in what kind it would be, and he said most probably Columbus, and possibly drawn-to-order, rather than a specific "model" of Columbus.
He asked what I paid for it, and when I said $350, he said, "wow, that's great".
Anyway, I had the frame prepped for build-up (chasing, facing, reaming, tapping, etc.) and it's at another shop getting new headset bits pressed on.
Thanks for all the help guys!
Last edited by cyclophile : 07-24-2004 at 06:38 PM.
The mechanic that did all the frame prep reamed it out, but didn't take away much metal, just gunk. He said the tube had been just slightly out-of-round, so he took off just a touch of the high spots, until the 27.2 fit well. He also had to re-spread the seat lug - it had gotten a bit out-of-round. Now it takes a 27.2 just fine. I think the main problem was the seat lug being a bit smashed.
I don't think that I ever specified that this is a roughly 58cm frame, BTW.
Thanks for the link. I've actually already spent quite a while there trying to find out what my bike is. No luck. However, this time around, I did notice that they had fancy paint as early as 1987. However, even the 1987 Master pictured has shaped tubes. I also noticed that straight forks went back to at least 1986 (although what's pictured there is a concept bike. Recall that my forks are curved (although one poster says you could get curved forks well after the straight forks were introduced).
Notwithstanding the Colnago-rep's ID of my bike as an "early master", I keep looking to ID it. I haven't seen any reference anywhere to a master with round tubes.
Anyway, those who are interested, please see this eBay listing (while it lasts) for a Colnago "International" frame:
This frame matches mine in *many* details: the fork crown design and engravings, the pill-shaped seat stay termination at the seat lug with COLNAGO engraved, the description of cable guides and cutout on the BB shell, the shape of the chainstay bridge, etc.
My frame does differ in that it has internal rear brake routing and I don't think it has a pump peg or chain hanger (it's in the shop getting a headset installed, so I couldn't look.
I did some Google searching and came up with only two not very interesting matches for "colnago international". Can anyone shed light on this model?
I'm thinking more and more that my particular frame came from Europe since I've never seen a picture or ad for anything exactly like it, and believe me, I've looked.
Could someone please help me identify this Colnago frame...Me To!
I'm glad I stumbled onto this site yesterday. I seem to have the same problem a few of the other people posting messages here have. I bought a Colnago Super (?) on ebay but I can't seem to find any type of ID# on the bike to identify what year or model it is, Not on the bottom bracket or seat tube or anywhere else (On the outside anyway..)
What I did find, which is kind of curious was a number # 446 stamped on the "Right-rear Campagnolo fork end" where the rear derrailleur is situated.
The frame is 52cm.,with chromed fork and rear stays including Campy fork ends (which have been painted over.). The paint job is Beautiful in my opinion, very glossy.
The frame has the bottom bracket clover cut-out drain and the words "Colnago Brev." stamped into the bottom bracket also.
It has a clover pattern stamped where the top tube and downtube intersect at the head tube, also on the rear brake brake bridge and the name colnago also stamped on the seat-tube lugs. The tubing is NOT rounded it's undulated or Gilco (SP??, is that right?).
I've included a few pics to illustrate what I mean..I apologize for not beeing able to describe this bike in a more professional manner, but I don't know much of the lingo.
In any case I would appreciate the benefit of your combined knowledge in identifying this frame.
Thank you
Colyer Rollins
Last edited by Colyer : 09-27-2004 at 06:17 AM.
Reason: New pictures
I'm glad I stumbled onto this site yesterday. I seem to have the same problem a few of the other people posting messages here have. I bought a Colnago Super (?) on ebay but I can't seem to find any type of ID# on the bike to identify what year or model it is [clip...]
It's not a super. It's a Master, Master Lite, Master X-Lite, Master Piu, Technos, or the like. The interesting thing is, I believe they usually identified the master series on the top tube, near the head tube. Maybe that only happened in certain years.
There are others lurking on the forum with much more experience (and encyclopedic knowledge), so they'll probably chime in with more specifics for you.
It looks great. Hope you enjoy it!
PS - my Colnago also has the serial # on the right rear dropout. Not unusual.
I have a Colnago Spiral Conic SLX that slightly postdates your frame. My Spiral Conic had a curved fork and internally routed rear brake cabling. It also had a cloverleaf on the top of the seat stay, which is a newer design than the "Colnago" on your frame.
I believe that my Colnago is from 1989, as the 1990 or 1991 and on Spiral Conic SLXs came with straight forks.
Interesting, I didn't know that Colorado Cyclist sold the Spiral Conics. I thought that it was a European only frameset...
If anyone is interested I'll post some pictures. I did have the bike repainted...the original pearl with pink crosshatch just wasn't my cup of tea.
I have a Colnago Spiral Conic SLX that slightly postdates your frame. My Spiral Conic had a curved fork and internally routed rear brake cabling. It also had a cloverleaf on the top of the seat stay, which is a newer design than the "Colnago" on your frame.
I believe that my Colnago is from 1989, as the 1990 or 1991 and on Spiral Conic SLXs came with straight forks.
Interesting, I didn't know that Colorado Cyclist sold the Spiral Conics. I thought that it was a European only frameset...
If anyone is interested I'll post some pictures. I did have the bike repainted...the original pearl with pink crosshatch just wasn't my cup of tea.
Thanks,
Lee
I would love to see pictures of your bike, although I don't think mine is a Spiral Conic. One thing I've picked up in my research is that the COLNAGO name was in block letters (kind of like a bold "Courier" font) up until the very early 90's, and in a more proportional ("Times Roman" font) in later years. My bike has the more proportional-style font on the logos.
Of course, as someone mentioned somewhere in this thread, it *could* have been repainted at a later time. It definitely has the BB shell of the older Super frames that I've seen on eBay, and the curved forks seem to be a bit of an anachronism for a post-1990 frame.
After tons of looking around the internet and eBay, I've still yet to see an exact match for my frame, feature for feature. I've kind of given up hope of finding out what it is.
The eBay seller guesstimates that it is a mid-90's bike. It has 130mm rear spacing, so that seems reasonable. If it's not obvious from the pictures, the tubes are not specially shaped in any way. I can't find a serial number anywhere. There are also no tubing labels. There is a clover-shaped drain hole in the BB shell. It has Colnago-branded dropouts. http://homepage.mac.com/mike.thomas/PhotoAlbum10.html
All help appreciated greatly.
Thanks...
I had a 93 Classic - Colnago's entry level frame that year. It had clumsily crimped SL tubes (going for the star shaped cross section I guess). The 93 only came in bland solid colors. I bought it because the price was right - it was a lousy bike.
The 94, which you seem to have, came with the awesome paint job and chromed head lugs. Way nicer bike IMO. I don't recall them having crimped tubes.
...
The 94, which you seem to have, came with the awesome paint job and chromed head lugs. Way nicer bike IMO. I don't recall them having crimped tubes.
You have a pretty bike, how does it ride?
Well, I think it rides great, even though I'm quite sure it's been driven into a garage wall on a top-mount car rack. There's obvious (in the right light) damage to the top and down tubes at the head tube lugs (I started a thread elsewhere on the forum about that, once I discovered it). The fork seems fine. The frame seems pretty well aligned, and rides great - stiffer than I expected, given the thin tubes. It is pretty - it definitely gets a lot of looks, and even I double-take at it occasionally.
Someone please help me identify this Colnago frame
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