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What's the big deal about lugged frames?

26K views 49 replies 33 participants last post by  velodog 
#1 · (Edited)
Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of hyperbole?
 
#2 ·
Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of hyperboil?
hyper what?
i think when most people talk about lugged frames they're talking about steel, not carbon. lugged carbon frames are pretty low tech when you consider the other methods being used.
lugged steel frames can be pretty fancy, depending on the skill of the builder. google it and check out some images, you'll understand.
 
#4 ·
Lugs look artistic that's why myself and others like them. But lugs have been found on older style carbon fiber bikes, usually aluminum sometimes titanium lugs were used. Merlin Cielo was a good example of a lugged CF frame and it looked fantastic...but rather pricey. Also lugs in themselves can be plain to very ornate.
 
#5 ·
Over the years I have read or had people talk about lugged frames as if they were almost mystical, frames like C50 or Look 585. I'm just wondering what the big deal is, would I really wet myself with glee if I road one of those magical frames? Or is it just another case of hyperboil?
Hyperbole.

Folks like what they like. Lugs can strike one's fancy because of their 'artisanal' properties and how they can often enhance the looks of a bike.

Lugs don't make for a different ride. The method of joinery makes very little difference.

I have Tig'd, lugged, carbon and aluminum bikes. I like 'em all!
 
#6 · (Edited)
lugged carbon frames are pretty low tech when you consider the other methods being used.
Oh really?
Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00



Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.
Will you wet your pants on a lugged frame? Only if you have bladder control issues, but it certainly not hyperbole, unless it's on a steel frame.
 
#7 ·
Oh really?
Lugged carbon are some of the best carbon frames around. Pay attention around 2:00


Lugs on steel bikes are to hide welds and to allow steel builders to bling up their bikes so people will be interested in them and they can charge more.
All you need is some steel tubing from Home Depot and a scroll saw to carve out some fancy curlicue lugs and ta da!! A frame you can get thousands for.
Will you wet your pants on a lugged frame? Only if you have bladder control issues, but it certainly not hyperbole, unless it's on a steel frame.
oh yeah, because advertising HAS to be true, right? and if you're serious, your knowledge of lugged steel frames is pretty much non-existent.
 
#11 ·
OK, OK, I corrected my hyperboil comment to hyperbole but honestly think hyper "boil" is more appropriate, as in a bunch of exaggerated opinions boiling over the top! lol.

Seriously I can appreciate the ornate beauty and craftsmanship of some lugged frames and have owned both steel and aluminum lugged bikes, but never a lugged carbon frame. And obviously with a custom lugged frame you can fine tune all the tube lengths to fit your needs perfectly so it should ride like a dream.

My question was directed more toward ride quality of those mystic frames I mentioned, the C50 and the 585. I have heard both those bikes described as "best frame ever" because of the lugged construction. I have even found myself searching for a good 585 to build up even though I have never ridden that frame, just because I bought into the hyper"boil" and feel I need one.

Thanks for the comments.
 
#16 ·
It comes down to the fact that people like looking at bikes in addition to riding them. I see bikes as tools and would never buy a lugged steel bike but I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them even if I don't think they are worth what most custom frame builders are asking. Especially the likes of Pegoretti, Vanilla, etc.

Lugged Carbon is simply an easier way to produce carbon frames but doesn't really give any enhanced performance or else more than just a few companies would be making a few of their bikes that way.

Consensus concerning lugged bicycle frames: Meh.
 
#23 ·
when lugs are a 'cost adding' technology (in the case of steel bikes where one needs skilled brazers to do the job) it is an antiquated technology

when lugs are a 'cost saving' technology (allowing mfrs to build multiple frame sizes w/out having to make a multitude of monocoque molds) it is the benchmark in frame construction

funny how advertising works
 
#30 ·
The joints between the frame tubes have very high stresses that are concentrated at the miters. The lug spreads that stress out over a larger surface area than, say, in a TIG welded joint, reducing the potential for joint failure. Also, the much lower temperatures of silver brazing (compared to the heat used for welding) doesn't compromise the strength of the tubes in the heat affected zone (HAZ) like welding did before the introduction of air-hardening steels.

That's not to say a TIG-welded joint isn't perfectly adequate and plenty strong, especially when micro-alloyed air-hardening steels like Reynolds 853, True Temper S3, and Columbus Foco are used.

Spectrum Cycles | Materials

Spectrum Cycles said:
WHY WE STILL USE LUGS
Our steel frames are lugged for two reasons. Lugs are stronger and lugs are beautiful. Did we mention that Lugs are stronger? Almost all mass-production steel frames produced today utilize cost-effective tig welding to join tubes. This prompts a question: why do we still use silver soldered lugged joining? There are two basic answers. First, properly fitted and soldered lugged joints are considerably stronger than joints created any other way. Second, they give us and other traditional builders a way of showing off. We can demonstrate, not only our soldering skill, but also how we believe a frame's details should appear.

ON STRENGTH
In the late '80s, a team of scientists in the UC Davis engineering department undertook an in-depth look at the relative strengths of various steel joining techniques at the request of "Bicycle Guide" magazine. The three top frame builders associated with the three primary joining techniques were asked to supply joining samples using tubing supplied to the builders from the same mill run. Tom Ritchie provided the fillet-brazed samples, tig-welding was done by Gary Helfrich, and the silver soldered lugged samples were done by Spectrum's Jeff Duser. The samples were fatigue tested, in some cases to failure. In most cases, the joints did not fail. More often, the tubes failed at or near the joint. The team's study involved microscopic analysis of the crystal structure of joining zones, heat effected zones and failure sites. They concluded that all three joining techniques, done properly, are clearly of sufficient strength for the purpose of bicycle frame construction. The different results obtained from the samples resulted primarily in the heat-affected areas of the tubes themselves. Not surprisingly, the tubes that were soldered turned out to be stronger than the tubes that were welded or brazed. So, what does this mean in the real world? Frames built with silver soldered lugs will last longer than those that are fillet brazed and considerably longer than those that are welded. However, for most of our customers, the real practical difference is that lugged frames hold up in crashes better, and when it becomes necessary, they are much easier to repair.

ON MODERN AIR HARDENING TUNING
The latest generation of air-hardening steel tubing used by top quality welding frame builders was not available at the time of the UC Davis study. We at Spectrum expect that this tubing, when in the hands of master builders, is more reliable than the welded joints and tubes tested at UC Davis but still less strong than lugged joints.
 
#29 ·
I don't consider myself an expert on frames (by a long shot), but I tested all types of frames over the summer (carbon, steel, Ti) in searching for my long anticipated dream bike and before ultimately purchasing a lugged carbon Colnago c59; simply put, IMHO the lugged carbon c59 delivered the best overall ride quality by far; interestingly enough, my second favorite was a Cyfac (another lugged carbon frame); it's obviously a highly personal choice, and all of the higher end frames delivered something very special (I was "upgrading" from my first bike which was mostly aluminum with some carbon); in any event, anyone interested in hand-made craftsmanship should check out the link below to a short video on the c59 production process -- pretty cool... Good riding... Colorider


Building a C59 Italia: The art of bike building | Colnago
 
#33 ·
I happen to love the look of lugs, it adds artistic quality to the bike instead of just a weld; it's like who cares, a lot of people can weld, it isn't rocket science, even $1.75 an hour Chinese people can weld. And carbon fiber bikes look like kids plastic toys. But that's just my opinion.
 
#34 ·
Saying lugged carbon frames are low-tech is just as stupid and ignorant as saying lugged steel frames are made to hide the welds.

That being said, between getting a lugged carbon and lugged steel frame from equally reputable manufacturers, I would go for steel any day.
 
#35 ·
Way back in the early 1980's the majority of bicycles were lugged steel. I came along to the start line in an upstart companies aluminum frame. (Cannondale) Everyone stared, some asked why the tubes were so large in diameter. I was the outcast stranger.

Over the years, somehow, carbon and aluminum won the battle. Their large diameters now rule and it is rare to spot the skinny and out of place steel bike.

When I see the lugged steel bicycle, I see quality and craftsmanship. I see expensive steelworkers who will charge you an arm and a leg. I see a lost craft mired in tradition and excellence.

Unfortunately I ride carbon fiber stamped out in China. Someday, I will have the money enough to afford a steel downtube shifter and I will ride it proudly. It has gone from the standard, to the rare. Rare beauty, sweet ride. Only the young riders will wonder and never know.
 
#37 ·
Unfortunately I ride carbon fiber stamped out in China. Someday, I will have the money enough to afford a steel downtube shifter and I will ride it proudly. It has gone from the standard, to the rare. Rare beauty, sweet ride. Only the young riders will wonder and never know.
If you look long enough you can find older mid to high end used lugged steel bikes for under $500 and a few of them will be in excellent condition with just some minor "repairs" like cables, pads, seat, chain, maybe a gear cluster and or chainring. I find them on rare occasion around where I live and if they fit I buy them. There are even new lugged steel bikes available for a lot less money then the expensive ones you hear about, like this one: Adrenaline Bikes You can buy the frame and fork and simply locate an older group set probably through E-bay, or if you can find a bicycle swap meet in your area, and some of those groupsets may even be new condition never used.
 
#44 ·
Don't get me wrong, I have a Scot Addict LTD, Disc Roubaix, and a few other plastic bikes. But also have a few of these, cause they are purty.

And this 1972 silver soldered Nervex lugged Paramount is original chrome finish, and has a quality of ride that time has no effect on IMO. A purist ride that defies time IMO.
 

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