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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    If choosing this analogy, there is a reason why a Porsche is more minimalist than a Mercedes.
    LOL, you think a Porsche is minimalist!

    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Sorry, electric shifting, disc brake race bikes make me laugh is all. Only thing missing is DVD player..lol.
    A Harley Davidson of road bikes
    Yeah, and another incorrect analogy


    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    For the average rider who isn't in the grueling crucible of top level racing, where there isn't the onus on 50 mph descending in wet weather and where there is no UCI weight constraint of 15 lbs, demand for rim brakes should be even higher....
    The irony in your argument is that the average rider doesn't need to "buy performance" such as a light bike since they are not needing to win races in order to keep their paycheck coming. No need for marginal gains when you're riding for yourself. You want to get faster, ride more, and the extra weight is good for you anyway.
    The only thing that 10lb Emonda is good for is telling your friends that you have a 10lb bike while they pass you up a hill on their 17lb bikes


    .


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    Last edited by MoPho; 10-19-2017 at 03:53 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Just to be clear, I am not against disks. For example, if buying a disk brake bike with rear rack, you can bungie a Frisbee to the back. At least that disk has a modicum of utility.

    I love the forecast about disk usage. Yes, the sun will burn out eventually as well. Anybody see the pro racing in CO this past year? I saw '1' disk brake bike....lol. Maybe that was a spectator who made his way onto the course? Apparently that guy didn't get the memo either.
    My actual forecast is that the switch will happen basically overnight 2 years from now. There will be a clarification of the rules. Also tubulars will begin to be phased out as prevalence of disc brakes will allow for tubeless clinchers to be used.

    I saw at least two Trek-Segafredo riders on disc Emondas at the Colorado Classic because it was at the UCI min weight. I definitely saw Lawson Craddock on a Disc SSEvo too. Again, it's mostly indifference and not wanting to offend the few grumps like Owain Doull who want to blame everything on discs.
    Last edited by ceugene; 10-19-2017 at 05:19 PM.

  3. #53
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    MoPo,
    Its ok you don't get it. I build motorcycles as well. If anybody needs a light bike to keep up in an aggressive group ride with some climbing, its average Joe.

    Hey you guys, my involvement in this thread spiraled and turned into a rebuke of disc Tarmacs. Yes, I believe electric shifting and disk brakes desecrate the great Tarmac which should be built with Campy Super Record ;) but pretty clear I prefer the rim brake version as do all pros that professionally race the Tarmac. New Shimano rim brake are truly amazing.

    Have fun and enjoy the disk love.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceugene View Post
    My actual forecast is that the switch will happen basically overnight 2 years from now. There will be a clarification of the rules. Also tubulars will begin to be phased out as prevalence of disc brakes will allow for tubeless clinchers to be used.

    I saw at least two Trek-Segafredo riders on disc Emondas at the Colorado Classic because it was at the UCI min weight. I definitely saw Lawson Craddock on a Disc SSEvo too. Again, it's mostly indifference and not wanting to offend the few grumps like Owain Doull who want to blame everything on discs.
    Anybody trying to extrapolate that in two years all pro road racers will be on disks when 99% of the current peloton is on rim brakes...sorry but that is pure folly. I see clinchers continue to gain popularity in pro racing however.

    Cool you caught the Colorado Classic I mentioned previously. A decent bellwether of present disc acceptance in pro racing. We will see if disks gain any popularity in pro racing.

    Don't quite understand your statement about not wanting to offend. Racers want to win and there are reasons pretty much the entire pro peloton still prefer rim brakes.

  5. #55
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    OK back on topic...

    2018 SW Tarmac Disc Availability-specialized-diverge-s-works-2018-future-shock-dropper-swat-actual-weight-allez-crux-81.jpg

    click on photo to enlarge

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    MoPo,
    Its ok you don't get it. I build motorcycles as well. If anybody needs a light bike to keep up in an aggressive group ride with some climbing, its average Joe.

    Hey you guys, my involvement in this thread spiraled and turned into a rebuke of disc Tarmacs. Yes, I believe electric shifting and disk brakes desecrate the great Tarmac which should be built with Campy Super Record ;) but pretty clear I prefer the rim brake version as do all pros that professionally race the Tarmac. New Shimano rim brake are truly amazing.

    Have fun and enjoy the disk love.

    Yeah, and I have built lightweight minimalist cars that make Porsches look like Mack trucks in comparison.

    If anybody needs a light bike to keep up in an aggressive group ride with some climbing, its average Joe.
    If only it worked that way.


    You might like the disks because you live in hilly country...for fast descents. Me, I prefer rim brakes because I live in flat country.
    I found your problem



    .

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    MoPo,
    Its ok you don't get it. I build motorcycles as well. If anybody needs a light bike to keep up in an aggressive group ride with some climbing, its average Joe.

    Hey you guys, my involvement in this thread spiraled and turned into a rebuke of disc Tarmacs. Yes, I believe electric shifting and disk brakes desecrate the great Tarmac which should be built with Campy Super Record ;) but pretty clear I prefer the rim brake version as do all pros that professionally race the Tarmac. New Shimano rim brake are truly amazing.

    Have fun and enjoy the disk love.
    We're trying.


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Yeah, and I have built lightweight minimalist cars that make Porsches look like Mack trucks in comparison.
    What kind of lightweight cars have you built? Were they streetable?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Anybody trying to extrapolate that in two years all pro road racers will be on disks when 99% of the current peloton is on rim brakes...sorry but that is pure folly. I see clinchers continue to gain popularity in pro racing however.

    Cool you caught the Colorado Classic I mentioned previously. A decent bellwether of present disc acceptance in pro racing. We will see if disks gain any popularity in pro racing.

    Don't quite understand your statement about not wanting to offend. Racers want to win and there are reasons pretty much the entire pro peloton still prefer rim brakes.
    Clinchers cannot gain popularity in the World Tour outside of TTs and other flat stages. Sidewall pressures from clinchers on comparatively weak bead hooks, heat from braking, etc. result in a dangerous combination. I just saw a Knight Composites carbon clincher rim destroyed at Phil's Fondo...I also saw many people stopped on the side of Yerba Buena descent waiting for their rim brake carbon clinchers to cool down while I bombed down on my disc clinchers without a care in the world.

    If you believe clinchers (and tubeless clinchers) are going to gain more popularity in pro racing, then you must realize the enabler for this will be the continued adoption of disc brakes.

    Racers want to win, but they also deal with backlash from outspoken individuals who may or may not carry weight with the CPA or other cycling "unions." There is zero risk involved in maintaining the status quo, making supporting disc brakes infinitely more risky.

  10. #60
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    So, when can we expect to see sl6 Disc Tarmacs? That's all I want to know.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Cross and Mtb racing is a completely different world. I prefer disks for example on both Cross an Mtb's due to tire width and riding environment. Road racing is a different environment. So is F1 and Nascar.
    I am not suggesting it is the same world. I am only saying the switch can happen an lot faster than you are saying it can.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steenerk View Post
    So, when can we expect to see sl6 Disc Tarmacs? That's all I want to know.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    I read an article a while back that said December-February timeframe or something like that.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  13. #63
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    I just want to provide some context for some of what I said about the reality that disc brakes will likely be in the pro peloton soon (not that it really matters, but anyone reading the thread should be provided some access to what is actually going on in my opinion). Anyway, they will likely be completely legal and a lot more common starting in 2019. That's the reality. We are not talking ten years from now. Whoever said 2 years is completely in the ballpark.

    UCI to continue disc brake trial in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com

    In fact, Aqua Blue Sport will be racing full-time on disc only and 1X systems next year:

    Aqua Blue Sport to compete on 3T Strada disc bike with 1x drivetrain in 2018 | Cyclingnews.com
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  14. #64
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    Early 2018 for the disc Tarmac is the word on the street:

    2018 Specialized Tarmac SL6 unveiled | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    What kind of lightweight cars have you built? Were they streetable?

    I have a Caterham Super 7 that weights 1160lbs and before that a modified Lotus Elan that weight 1440lbs. Both street cars. I fully understand the benefit of light weight, but the weight difference to ones competition has to be really significant to really reap the benefits, particularly if there is a deficit in power.
    My disc bike weighs 1lb more than my buddies identical rim brake version, that is nothing! In fact I have been faster up hills on my disc bike than I was on my lighter rim brake bike, and for technical descending I do, the brakes are amazing. Most riders, even in fast A group rides, are not riding 10lb Emonda's, they are riding 14-17lbs or more bikes (or race legal 6.8kg), so the reality is you are not at any significant weight disadvantage with a disc brake bike

    Funny thing today; I frequently ride with a woman who is a former multi-time masters state champion, back a year ago when I was looking to get a disc bike she was, adamantly against them, rim brakes are good enough, blah, blah, blah.... This morning she showed up on a bike with hydro discs. It was only her second ride on the bike and she was already raving about how awesome the brakes are.
    Guess you need to actually ride some hills and not the flats to appreciate disc brakes


    The Tarmac disc is going to be a sweet bike, even better with electronic shifting


    .


    .

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    I have a Caterham Super 7 that weights 1160lbs and before that a modified Lotus Elan that weight 1440lbs. Both street cars. I fully understand the benefit of light weight, but the weight difference to ones competition has to be really significant to really reap the benefits, particularly if there is a deficit in power.
    My disc bike weighs 1lb more than my buddies identical rim brake version, that is nothing! In fact I have been faster up hills on my disc bike than I was on my lighter rim brake bike, and for technical descending I do, the brakes are amazing. Most riders, even in fast A group rides, are not riding 10lb Emonda's, they are riding 14-17lbs or more bikes (or race legal 6.8kg), so the reality is you are not at any significant weight disadvantage with a disc brake bike

    Funny thing today; I frequently ride with a woman who is a former multi-time masters state champion, back a year ago when I was looking to get a disc bike she was, adamantly against them, rim brakes are good enough, blah, blah, blah.... This morning she showed up on a bike with hydro discs. It was only her second ride on the bike and she was already raving about how awesome the brakes are.
    Guess you need to actually ride some hills and not the flats to appreciate disc brakes


    The Tarmac disc is going to be a sweet bike, even better with electronic shifting
    Cool cars. Brings back memories of an Elan a buddy of mine had in college. A neighbor owned a Europa and as a car guy you will appreciate a neighbor down the street who was a retired chief engineer for now long defunct AMC had a Ferrari GTO...one of the most rare and coveted Ferraris that now fetch 7 figures. As a kid, I can still remember the sound of that small displacement V12 fired up. Literally nothing like it.

    You know cars and the virtues of lightweight and yes, of course the 10 lb Emonda is almost as rare as a Lotus on the street. I love the new Shimano rim brakes personally and just don't see a need to change. I have owned disk brake bikes mostly off road....cross, 29'ers etc. Yes they stop great and terrific for off road. I live in pretty flat country and no need for discs on road. If I lived in the mountains however, I would probably be on a disk brake road bike.

    I am not an electric shifting guy either but I embrace technology which contributes to lower weight and aerodynamics. I actually run Campy mechanical on two Specialized bikes, mostly because I prefer the shifters...ergo's and functionality of separate thumb and lever with fixed brake lever. I prefer Shimano cranks and brakes so I mix and match a bit. I don't believe groupsets have to be all of one brand any more than a stem mfr. has to match who makes the seatpost. A bike is just parts.

    The Tarmac is a great bike with now 6 generations of development.

    Cheers
    Last edited by 11spd; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:48 AM.

  17. #67
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    11spd,

    You've told use your preferences, your beliefs and your predictions in this thread several times. It's cool, bus seriously, it's ok if other people feel differently. It's what makes the world go around.

    Let it go.

    This thread is supposed to about the Disc Tarmac. Can we get back to that?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    11spd,

    You've told use your preferences, your beliefs and your predictions in this thread several times. It's cool, bus seriously, it's ok if other people feel differently. It's what makes the world go around.

    Let it go.

    This thread is supposed to about the Disc Tarmac. Can we get back to that?
    You are right Migen. I got too wrapped up in responses to my comments and my involvement escalated beyond where it should have.

    Apologies and good luck to you guys if fortunate to own a new Tarmac disk.
    Cheers.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steenerk View Post
    So, when can we expect to see sl6 Disc Tarmacs? That's all I want to know.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    This.

    This thread is everything that is wrong with forums and why many are dying. You ask what time it is and it turns into an argument about poetry.

  20. #70
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    11spd/AKA "Roadworthy" - I thought you were banned from this forum?

  21. #71
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    I think many of us have had our conversations/disagreements with 11spd, but it is a bit more interesting to have him back. I can say, he's toned it down but leaps and bounds. In the past, I've never seen him apologize [which I believe was sincere]. I think we should give him a pass.

    Not related to the topic, but it gets a free bump anyway.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Butcher View Post
    I think many of us have had our conversations/disagreements with 11spd, but it is a bit more interesting to have him back. I can say, he's toned it down but leaps and bounds. In the past, I've never seen him apologize [which I believe was sincere]. I think we should give him a pass.

    Not related to the topic, but it gets a free bump anyway.
    I actually agree with this. There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinions or passionately debating an issue on here, just keep it clean I say. Welcome back 11spd. Let's just set up a disc brake vs rim brake forum (and electronic vs mechanical, etc.) so that the topic doesn't have to bleed over into every other discussion.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    I actually agree with this. There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinions or passionately debating an issue on here, just keep it clean I say. Welcome back 11spd. Let's just set up a disc brake vs rim brake forum (and electronic vs mechanical, etc.) so that the topic doesn't have to bleed over into every other discussion.
    Thanks Rash and thanks to Butcher as well. I know some take this bike stuff to heart, but I never have. I have always felt there is a lot of room for opinion and of course I have mine exposed to too many sides of the design equation.
    But competing opinions can offend and of course we live in perhaps the most contentious of times for those that follow politics and the world stage.
    To lighten the mood and somewhat on topic, kick back, put your feet up and watch the following GCN video of two of my favorite guys who constantly poke fun at each other and don’t take themselves too seriously…guys who can likely drop any of us…ex pros who can still ride…in Simon’s words, bloody fast. I really dig the GCN videos and the guys that are in them. To me, they really capture the true spirit of the sport.
    Simon is my favorite I suppose because we are built similarly…I am a bit beefier but who isn’t?...but in particular Simon is a complete smart@$$ as I like guys who see irony and quick with a laugh and have a bit of an edge.
    This video of course exposes how far bike design has come and of course those that appreciate disk brakes and electronic shifting will appreciate the comparison to more modest bike. The bike matters as most know that perhaps own a modern bike and maybe an old classic…a stark contrast.
    Thought you guys would appreciate the chuckle and cheers to all that love cycling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdb7KEc7xJI

  24. #74
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    Does the video tell us when the Tarmac disc will be released? Go post that in a relavent thread, not one where everyone but you specifically agrees on this point.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcorn View Post
    Does the video tell us when the Tarmac disc will be released? Go post that in a relavent thread, not one where everyone but you specifically agrees on this point.
    dcorn,
    Because you are such a sweet guy and you think you have dominion over what other’s post and use offensive terms like STFU which is clearly against forum policy, here is a thought for you.
    Maybe Specialized won’t be releasing the Tarmac disk because of lack of demand? After all, many Tarmac riders extrapolate from what pro’s ride and the Tarmac disk is nowhere to be found in the pro peloton. Guess what? Tarmac rim brake bike by contrast is probably the most popular race bike of all time, past, present and likely future.
    Learn it, love it, live it.

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