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  1. #1
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    New S-Works Diverge is coming...

    https://youtu.be/-Hirz61VxYI
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New S-Works Diverge is coming...-screenshot_2017-06-09-17-49-13.jpg  

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    Looking good,no doubt about it,but what is that ? A 2017 Roubaix with a dropper post ? Oh no wait,maybe a 2018 Tarmac without futureshock and dropper post. I mean,Specialized is losing it,really. I've owned a 2012 Roubaix,a 2015 Tarmac and a 2016 Diverge,they all looked different with their own design and personality,this cost saving standardization will backfire at them sometimes..

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    There is a link with some really clear photos in the Quiver Killers thread under Bikes, Frames, etc. that was posted by @Chader09. It looks a lot like a cross between the new Roubaix and Orbea Terra or something like that.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  4. #4
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    I'm calling futureshock in the seat post and head tube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcorn View Post
    I'm calling futureshock in the seat post and head tube.
    Future Shock is obviously in the front.

    The seat post is their XCP dropper, not a suspension post.
    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/eq...ost-xcp/116723
    Last edited by Chader09; 06-13-2017 at 04:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devastazione View Post
    Looking good,no doubt about it,but what is that ? A 2017 Roubaix with a dropper post ? Oh no wait,maybe a 2018 Tarmac without futureshock and dropper post. I mean,Specialized is losing it,really. I've owned a 2012 Roubaix,a 2015 Tarmac and a 2016 Diverge,they all looked different with their own design and personality,this cost saving standardization will backfire at them sometimes..
    Please explain your "cost saving" claim. How does this happen?

    They need different molds for every model, in every size. Unless you know that they are using common tooling to make the various bikes, there is nothing cost caving about it.

    At best, they may be trying to apply a common design methodology as is done in the auto industry. They frequently use similar elements (profile, grille and light shape, etc.) to make their various models appear as part of a "family".

    That may be what S is doing here. But really, you also have to realize there are only so many ways that you can design a double triangle frame in a totally unique way. Especially when you consider all the models a single brand like S actually makes, not to mention the industry as a whole.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    Please explain your "cost saving" claim. How does this happen?

    They need different molds for every model, in every size. Unless you know that they are using common tooling to make the various bikes, there is nothing cost caving about it.

    At best, they may be trying to apply a common design methodology as is done in the auto industry. They frequently use similar elements (profile, grille and light shape, etc.) to make their various models appear as part of a "family".

    That may be what S is doing here. But really, you also have to realize there are only so many ways that you can design a double triangle frame in a totally unique way. Especially when you consider all the models a single brand like S actually makes, not to mention the industry as a whole.

    Well,it looks like the front triangle is the same one used for the Roubaix. We can't tell for sure but it looks like. See the Stumpjumper-Camber thing,they are EXACTLY the same bike with different travel.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devastazione View Post
    Well,it looks like the front triangle is the same one used for the Roubaix. We can't tell for sure but it looks like. See the Stumpjumper-Camber thing,they are EXACTLY the same bike with different travel.
    Yes, the Stumpy and Camber share the front triangle.

    But, until we know more about the Diverge (specifically geometry like head tube angle, head tube length, seat tube angle, BB height, etc.) this is speculation if you think it shares the Roubaix front.

    I fully expect the Diverge to be VERY different from the Roubaix. That is even more so now that they pushed the new Roubaix much closer to the Tarmac geo, where the Diverge is likely to be headed longer and lower for it's dirty intentions.

    That situation is much less likely in the road frames since we are talking about a solid frame (as opposed to the separate sections in the MTB ones described above).

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    I think that the best value is the $1800 Diverge Comp E5. It has the same carbon fork, future shock, Axis wheelset and 105 components as the $3000 Diverge Comp with the carbon frame.

    A $1200 premium is a big bump just to get a carbon frame, because Specialized is pretty adept at building great aluminum frames. The carbon frame, can't be that special; but it is a bit larger than the E5 aluminum version, since the geometries are not identical

    Attached is the diagram of the largest 64cm frame sizes from Stack and reach calculator (with the Sequoia as a comparison).


    $1800 Diverge Comp E5
    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...ecompe5/128909
    $3000 Diverge Comp
    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...rgecomp/129079

    New S-Works Diverge is coming...-stack-reach-calc-00.jpgNew S-Works Diverge is coming...-diverge-carbon.jpgNew S-Works Diverge is coming...-diverge-e5.jpgNew S-Works Diverge is coming...-sequoia-steel.jpg

  12. #12
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    Astute comments by Erik. Somewhat agree. Will give you a further data point. I own a 2014 Secteur....the Diverge really replaced the Secteur and gave it the 'gravel' bike tag. I also own a carbon Roubaix with the same geometry.. Honestly, the Secteur has a great ride with 25c tires and Specialized new Al bikes have amazing ride quality unlike Al bikes of just a few short years ago.. There maybe a fractional stiffness difference...but for the average rider to me it doesn't matter so it will be mostly weight between Al and carbon which isn't much either unless racing at the elite amateur level.

    Now with the shock and revised rear geometry of the Diverge, the Al Diverge is probably one if not the best all arounder Al bikes on the planet. I still may prefer a one or two year old carbon Diverge without the shock for the cash...used bikes hardly used are such a great value, but for a brand new Al gravel bike, the new Diverge will probably be best in class.

    An interesting side note. Over time, Specialized took the Secteur and shaped its tubes to look almost identical to a carbon Roubaix which they could because of modern hydroforming. But look what Specialized has done. They have figured out how to get the ride quality, weight and stiffness out of more conventional tube shapes which of course are lower cost to manufacture. The newest Diverge looks to have almost round tube shapes but no doubt with front shock and low rear seat stays rides better than the previous more sculpted tube Diverge and Secteur it replaced.
    Last edited by 11spd; 06-27-2017 at 10:52 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik_A View Post
    I think that the best value is the $1800 Diverge Comp E5. It has the same carbon fork, future shock, Axis wheelset and 105 components as the $3000 Diverge Comp with the carbon frame.

    A $1200 premium is a big bump just to get a carbon frame, because Specialized is pretty adept at building great aluminum frames. The carbon frame, can't be that special; but it is a bit larger than the E5 aluminum version, since the geometries are not identical

    Attached is the diagram of the largest 64cm frame sizes from Stack and reach calculator (with the Sequoia as a comparison).


    $1800 Diverge Comp E5
    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...ecompe5/128909
    $3000 Diverge Comp
    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...rgecomp/129079

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's definitely a good value with the futureshock, but I actually think the "sweet" spot is one spot higher. You get the carbon frame AND Futureshock for just $300 more. You would only need to save a few pennies up to get a set of hydraulic shifters and brakes off eBay or closeout sale to have a really awesome bike for less than $2500.

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...gesport/152240
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  14. #14
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    Good catch Rash. And looking a bit further into the Diverge redesign, interesting to note that even the $4K Expert bike has 9r carbon which historically is lower modulus and heavier than 10r carbon used pretty much throughout the Expert line of Specialized bikes. Now...there are a couple of reasons other than Specialized saving a nickel for charging $4K for a 9r carbon frame bike. With the future shock and compliant rear end of the Diverge and no doubt they can build plenty of stiffness into the new frame even with the 9r carbon...probably less of an onus on using the best grade carbon for their carbon frame on this bike design...other than weight saving.

    In any event...interesting that their $2100 and $4000 Diverge use exactly the same 9r carbon frame. I would say at least a questionable 'marketing' difference...or rather not enough of a difference because you can buy almost 2 Diverges with same 9r frame for the price of one i.e. Expert.

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    The carbon Sport is definitely the value spot for me. Especially since I already have a set of carbon wheels and a HiFlex seatpost just sitting there waiting to go on it. I'll probably upgrade to a hydraulic brake 11 speed group somewhere down the line, but the Tiagra 10 speed and Spyre mechanical brakes will be more than adequate for a while.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Good catch Rash. And looking a bit further into the Diverge redesign, interesting to note that even the $4K Expert bike has 9r carbon which historically is lower modulus and heavier than 10r carbon used pretty much throughout the Expert line of Specialized bikes. Now...there are a couple of reasons other than Specialized saving a nickel for charging $4K for a 9r carbon frame bike. With the future shock and compliant rear end of the Diverge and no doubt they can build plenty of stiffness into the new frame even with the 9r carbon...probably less of an onus on using the best grade carbon for their carbon frame on this bike design...other than weight saving.

    In any event...interesting that their $2100 and $4000 Diverge use exactly the same 9r carbon frame. I would say at least a questionable 'marketing' difference...or rather not enough of a difference because you can buy almost 2 Diverges with same 9r frame for the price of one i.e. Expert.
    Thanks! Yep, I don't see much incentive to go much higher than that unless you really want a certain component group, etc. The Sport is a nice package and it is a really affordable upgrade to have pretty much the same performance level as the pricier bikes.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    Thanks! Yep, I don't see much incentive to go much higher than that unless you really want a certain component group, etc. The Sport is a nice package and it is a really affordable upgrade to have pretty much the same performance level as the pricier bikes.
    I have the new Diverge Expert X1 on order. I'm a huge fan of SRAM X1 and am running all my bikes with some sort of SRAM 1X. $4K is A LOT of money, but that gets you full SRAM FORCE, Carbon Cranks, Hydraulic Disc, etc. Additionally, the Expert comes with the ROVAL SLX 24 Disc Wheelset which is 1515 grams, worth $750, and is tubeless ready. The AXIS wheelset on the E5, Carbon Comp, etc will set up tubeless, but it's not listed/specified as tubeless ready. The Expert is positioned (per Specialized) as the Diverge line's "lightweight gravel racer." It should be a rocket and will be my go-to road bike (with a pair of Roubaix Pro tires) as well.

    I saw a few of the new Diverges (all S-Works versions) at this year's Dirty Kanza. I rode the DK200 on a Sequoia Elite with a custom wheelset and 700x44 tires. The course still really beat me up and IF I go back, I'd love to take advantage of the Future Shock. I'm very curious to see how big a wheelset the new Diverge will actually fit comfortably such as a Sawtoooth tire or even a 700x40 Gravel King SK (which usually measure a bit wider).
    2016 Specialized Diverge Expert Carbon X1 SRAM 1x11 Force, CG-R Post - Gravel/Cross/Road
    2015 Specialized Fatboy Comp SRAM X9 Triggers, Guide R Brakes 1x10

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pspycho View Post
    I have the new Diverge Expert X1 on order. I'm a huge fan of SRAM X1 and am running all my bikes with some sort of SRAM 1X. $4K is A LOT of money, but that gets you full SRAM FORCE, Carbon Cranks, Hydraulic Disc, etc. Additionally, the Expert comes with the ROVAL SLX 24 Disc Wheelset which is 1515 grams, worth $750, and is tubeless ready. The AXIS wheelset on the E5, Carbon Comp, etc will set up tubeless, but it's not listed/specified as tubeless ready. The Expert is positioned (per Specialized) as the Diverge line's "lightweight gravel racer." It should be a rocket and will be my go-to road bike (with a pair of Roubaix Pro tires) as well.

    I saw a few of the new Diverges (all S-Works versions) at this year's Dirty Kanza. I rode the DK200 on a Sequoia Elite with a custom wheelset and 700x44 tires. The course still really beat me up and IF I go back, I'd love to take advantage of the Future Shock. I'm very curious to see how big a wheelset the new Diverge will actually fit comfortably such as a Sawtoooth tire or even a 700x40 Gravel King SK (which usually measure a bit wider).
    my lbs has a new Diverge with sawtooths on it...good clearance all around

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    my lbs has a new Diverge with sawtooths on it...good clearance all around
    That's great news! Thank you.
    2016 Specialized Diverge Expert Carbon X1 SRAM 1x11 Force, CG-R Post - Gravel/Cross/Road
    2015 Specialized Fatboy Comp SRAM X9 Triggers, Guide R Brakes 1x10

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    my lbs has a new Diverge with sawtooths on it...good clearance all around
    Good, because that's exactly what I want to put on mine when I get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    Good, because that's exactly what I want to put on mine when I get it.
    try some compass barlow pass tires...much lighter and better than saw tooths

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    try some compass barlow pass tires...much lighter and better than saw tooths
    I'm sure they are very nice tires and I may try them at some point. But since I already have a lightly used pair of Sawtooths on my AWOL, I'm going to use them.
    Last edited by BluesDawg; 06-30-2017 at 07:24 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    Good catch Rash. And looking a bit further into the Diverge redesign, interesting to note that even the $4K Expert bike has 9r carbon which historically is lower modulus and heavier than 10r carbon used pretty much throughout the Expert line of Specialized bikes. Now...there are a couple of reasons other than Specialized saving a nickel for charging $4K for a 9r carbon frame bike. With the future shock and compliant rear end of the Diverge and no doubt they can build plenty of stiffness into the new frame even with the 9r carbon...probably less of an onus on using the best grade carbon for their carbon frame on this bike design...other than weight saving.

    In any event...interesting that their $2100 and $4000 Diverge use exactly the same 9r carbon frame. I would say at least a questionable 'marketing' difference...or rather not enough of a difference because you can buy almost 2 Diverges with same 9r frame for the price of one i.e. Expert.
    Yeah, I know- it's a four week old thread, but let's talk more about this- is there any chance the 11r S-Works would be *TOO* stiff? I mean, we're trying to smooth out rough gravel, so some compliance is good...
    I test rode a Comp model, but am looking at the Expert and S-Works (I'm a weight weenie). I was surprised at how much I liked that Comp though. Expert would be perfect, since I also love the Force 1 group- but I'm not a huge fan of the colorways offered for the Expert. I realize that's a dumb reason to spend a shton more money for an S-Works, but... that's how it is.

    And yes, I agree- it seems odd that they'd have the same 9r carbon in all their carbon Diverges, save the S-Works, and stranger still that it's a "lesser" version than what we had last year w/ the 10r.
    Capt Willard: "Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RRRoubaix View Post
    Yeah, I know- it's a four week old thread, but let's talk more about this- is there any chance the 11r S-Works would be *TOO* stiff? I mean, we're trying to smooth out rough gravel, so some compliance is good...
    I test rode a Comp model, but am looking at the Expert and S-Works (I'm a weight weenie). I was surprised at how much I liked that Comp though. Expert would be perfect, since I also love the Force 1 group- but I'm not a huge fan of the colorways offered for the Expert. I realize that's a dumb reason to spend a shton more money for an S-Works, but... that's how it is.

    And yes, I agree- it seems odd that they'd have the same 9r carbon in all their carbon Diverges, save the S-Works, and stranger still that it's a "lesser" version than what we had last year w/ the 10r.
    I think the answer to your first question is no...the S-works with 11r wouldn't be too stiff all said. In addition you effectively have two knobs to twist...one...tire size and pressure to tune ride quality...what most do on a standard road bike for example...and two now with future shock, you have the option to select different spring rate in front.

    But stepping back a bit, even though manufactures use carbon modulus for marketing...to create market diversity, honestly carbon modulus is more about weight. Why is that? Because you can make a army truck stiff frame by selection of frame tube symmetry and wall thickness. An example. A piece of paper versus a tree. Both made out of wood. A tree is stiffer because it has much greater section width and moment of inertia. Same modulus of elasticity. Same can easily be accomplished with slightly lower modulus carbon...can make a frame exceedingly stiff by tweaking 3D frame geometry. So if this can be done...frame designers can achieve desired differential stiffness throughout a frame...say vertically less stiff than laterally...then why use the fancier higher modulus carbon fiber? Weight. A designer can use less 'volume' of carbon fiber to achieve the same net frame stiffness with stiffer, i.e. higher modulus carbon fiber. Density aka weight per unit volume of different modulus carbon fiber doesn't vary much. So volume of carbon fiber is roughly proportional to weight.

    The game has completely changed once stiffness can be increased...but by suspending/decoupling the rider more from the stiffness of the bike felt up through the road. The front fork on the new Diverge and Roubaix are the 'lightest and stiffest' forks Specialized has ever made. They don't have to provide the suspension is why...they don't have to provide both give and be strong enough not to break. Now they just have to be strong and taking the suspension out of the flex in the fork allows them to create the lightest and strongest fork ever. Suspension for the front end is now a spring at the top of the steerer. Same applies somewhat to the rear of the bike as well with the seatpost attachment lower to the bike and the COBL saddle clamp design. The bike underneath is bank vault stiff which btw is best for energy transfer and handling as reported by all that have ridden the bike.

    In summary, carbon fiber modulus matters less with this new frame design. The frame itself is very light even with 9r carbon which takes a bit more volume of 9r carbon compared to 11r to achieve the same stiffness and why the 9r frame is going to weight a few grams more. Stiffness will be close and the frame itself very stiff with 9r or 11r carbon...because of the suspension characteristics built into the frame.

    Hope above makes sense.
    Last edited by 11spd; 07-30-2017 at 09:00 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11spd View Post
    I think the answer to your first question is no...the S-works with 11r wouldn't be too stiff all said. In addition you effectively have two knobs to twist...one...tire size and pressure to tune ride quality...what most do on a standard road bike for example...and two now with future shock, you have the option to select different spring rate in front.

    But stepping back a bit, even though manufactures use carbon modulus for marketing...to create market diversity, honestly carbon modulus is more about weight. Why is that? Because you can make a army truck stiff frame by selection of frame tube symmetry and wall thickness. An example. A piece of paper versus a tree. Both made out of wood. A tree is stiffer because it has much greater section width and moment of inertia. Same modulus of elasticity. Same can easily be accomplished with slightly lower modulus carbon...can make a frame exceedingly stiff by tweaking 3D frame geometry. So if this can be done...frame designers can achieve desired differential stiffness throughout a frame...say vertically less stiff than laterally...then why use the fancier higher modulus carbon fiber? Weight.

    The game has completely changed once stiffness can be increased...but by suspending/decoupling the rider more from the stiffness of the bike felt up through the road. The front fork on the new Diverge and Roubaix are the 'lightest and stiffest' forks Specialized has ever made. They don't have to provide the suspension is why...they don't have to provide both give and be strong enough not to break. Now they just have to be strong and taking the suspension out of the flex in the fork allows them to create the lightest and strongest fork ever. Suspension for the front end is now a spring at the top of the steerer. Same applies somewhat to the rear of the bike as well with the seatpost attachment lower to the bike and the COBL saddle clamp design. The bike underneath is bank vault stiff which btw is best for energy transfer and handling as reported by all that have ridden the bike.

    In summary, carbon fiber modulus matters less with this new frame design. The frame itself is very light even with 9r carbon which takes a bit more than 11r to achieve the same stiffness and why the 9r frame is going to weight a few grams more. Stiffness will be close.

    Hope above makes sense.
    I actually think the change in carbon comes down to durability. The gravel racing scene has exploded since the first Diverge came out and people participating in those events have learned a lot over that time period. One of things they have learned is that one of the important factors to consider when selecting a gravel bike or equipment is durability. Going with with Fact 9 carbon means more material will be used which should result in a more durable bike. That's my thinking anyway.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

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